How NOT to Break Stereotypes...

[Yarnspinner]

Okay.  I don't know if this belongs in this category.  Some of it has to do with work and some has to do with daily life, so I put it here.  If it's in the wrong place, feel free to move it and if you think it's offensive, feel free to remove it altogether.  I'll try to be delicate.

I'm not going to start by saying "I'm not prejudiced" because I know I am, as I know most people, despite their protests, are.  My particular prejudice of choice is "stupid people" and that's a description I have found to cut clean across race, gender, sexual orientation, country of origin, political party  and choice of religious belief.  I've lived long enough to meet people who did not "look like" me who thought like me and people who look like me whose mind sets are so alien I couldn't begin to imagine how their mind works.  I've lived long enough to know that stereotypes exist to be broken. 

That said, two experiences  cropped  up in conversation (with family and at work) that make me wonder what the people involved were thinking:

First up is a social engagement.

When my brother and his first wife bought their home, they had an open house party.  He invited several people from his job.  The party was set to be from two to six.  He and his wife had to be somewhere else by seven.  At six o clock, the guests were ushered out and he and the wife took off.

The next day, he met up with an invited co worker who never showed up.  Coworker is from Z Country.  (a place known for a certain type of e-mail scam)  Co worker was highly insulted.  "My wife and I came to your party, but you weren't even there," said coworker.  My brother asked him "When did you come?  We had to leave to be elsewhere."  "Well, we were there at 8:30.  We knocked and knocked and walked around and looked in your windows, but YOU weren't home. Why did you invite us if you weren't going to be home?"  My brother finally said "The invitations said two to six.  Why didn't you come then?"  Co worker said something about Z Country being a place where people take their time and don't race around and everyone KNOWS that if an invitation gives hours, it just means it's a suggested time.  My brother, apparently, should have known all this, should have stayed home and waited because "Everyone knows we don't show up on time.  It's not our nature."  My brother smiled politely and bit his tongue to keep from suggesting that Coworker was certainly perpetuating a stereotype about his people.  He did not invite them to future functions and allowed Coworker to think what he liked.

The second incident involves me, a colleague and a seminar we attended on "Library Outreach to Foreign Language Speakers."  That's how it was billed, but it soon became clear that it was only one set of foreign language speakers we were talking about.  Not a problem...a lot of the excellent common sense advice could be applied to all languages and cultures.

But at the beginning of the workshop, we were asked to discuss stereotypes about this particular group (here after designated as "FLS") that the speaker--herself a member of FLS--brought up.  We laughed at the outmoded concepts and grinned at the way she took down one stereotype after another ("We talk too loud," she said "we're all illegal,we're slow and lazy,  we're flashy, we breed like bunnies.")  She was SO right.  She made us laugh at the foolishness of the stereotypes while getting a flavor of the culture and the language.  That was in the first half.

In the afternoon, though, we were all given sheets detailing the differences between "European-American" culture and the culture of the FSL.  And here is where my jaw began to drop.

"American culture has a set concept of time and values a rigid punctuality" "FLS sees time as elastic and the desire  to savor the moment is more important than the need to be on time."  "American culture places an emphasis on decorum, quiet and a societal concept of manners." "FLS values the embracing of the moment and celebration over the artificial concepts of decorum." 

A few hands went up  "But didn't you just say that this was a STEREOTYPE?"  Apparently not.  She honestly could not see that this was a complete contradiction of what she had said in the morning.  In fact, she went further to talk about how those of us who were responsible for story hour programs should not take it amiss if FLS mothers did not show up until half the program was over.  "They aren't being rude," she said "It's simply that their time frame is different than yours."  My colleague beat me to the punch by raising her hand and saying "So, what, the people from other cultures who don't make it on time ARE rude?"  "Oh NO," said the speaker "I'm sure there's a whole other set of governing values that cover them."

At this point, my colleague and I, I am ashamed to say, kind of stopped listening because it sounded less like a program on how to reach your patrons of foreign culture and more like an exercise in excusing the bad behavior of some irresponsible and stupid people  by couching the stereotype in positive language. 

Which leaves me wondering if I can use my Swedish and Portuguese background to validate and excuse my many moments of being obtuse and my other too many moments of jumping the gun and getting into a fight before I get all the facts.  My parents used to claim these stereotypes as their very own.

Lily "I'm not STUPID, I'm just SWEDISH" Such

[Gyro Widget]

I am guilty of propagating bad stereotypes.  I am naturally loud, hyper, foolish, and completely obnoxious sometimes (if I do say so myself)..  whenever people tell me too cool it, I always answer back "I'm a Newfie, I was born this way"    oops!

[Alida]

Recently my DD and DH were in a conversation about talking over other people and when it is and isn't appropriate.  "But Dad," DD said.  "I don't know if I should be polite or Sicilian!"

That said, when I am with members of other cultures, especially those whose families have been in the states for multiple generations, I remember to respect THEIR values.  I would never show up 2 1/2 hours late and expect to be greeted, nor would I be upset that people were keeping to their cultural expectations.  Coworker knows where he is living and what is expected of people here.  To expect your brother to follow their cultural traditions here is ridiculous and self-centered.

The second part has my jaw on the floor, btw.  Lumping all European-Americans together is just bad.

And the hot toddy I drank for my flu is kicking in so I'm going to end it here before I start rambling about how ridiculous it all is

[Wordgeek]

This is a complex issue.

I've spent most of the last 14 years overseas.  I'm Canadian, grew up near Vancouver, BC, and have lived in Japan, Korea, Australia, and the United Arab Emirates, as well as visited a number of other countries.  So, I've done the cross-cultural thing.

I think what the speaker was getting at was value judgements.  A value judgement is, say, calling a person lazy or inconsiderate for being late.  A neutral statement is to say that X person has a different view of time.  It's the difference between saying something is wrong or bad and saying that it's merely different.  And we all know that different cultures have different ways of doing things.  No big deal, until you have to start spending time with each other. 

In a cross-cultural situation, it's important to be flexible and to reserve judgements.  At the same time, there's no need to turn into a doormat.  Using your examples, I would drop Coworker From Z Country because he's being a twit.  How long has the dude been in the US?  Long enough to get a job, which means that he knows something about Americans and clocks.  Showing up at 8.30 for a 2-6 invitation is ridiculous.  Using his ethnicity as an excuse for ridiculousness is a character flaw.  Does he think that the people of Z are too stupid to learn about other cultures or practices?  Because that's what he's implying.  Alternatively, he's so egocentric that he thinks that the entire world should revolve around his ways and his personality and his wants.  Not someone I'd want to spend a lot of time with.

In the second case, the storytime, the FLS parents may not be intending to be rude.  To me, those intentions are important.  I would explain, as your brother did, the importance of the stated time.  New arrivals to the US, or people who aren't well integrated into society, might not be aware that 2pm storytime does, in fact, start at 2pm.  And for the record, "people who aren't well integrated into society" can include born and bred Americans, even those from European or WASP backgrounds.  Late arrivals can be told about the start time and taken to a different area.  If they want to hear the story, next time they can come at 2pm.

[Cyndi]

CRUD MONKEYS! I feel you on this!

There's a person on the kaijuphile board I go to who claims he has ADD. I'm constantly reminding him to not send me one PM, then PM me again two minutes later when he could easily wait for my reply to ask another question. He always says, "Sorry, forgot. dingdangity ADD." -.-;

[gadget--gal]

The next day, he met up with an invited co worker who never showed up.  Coworker is from Z Country.  (a place known for a certain type of e-mail scam)  Co worker was highly insulted.  "My wife and I came to your party, but you weren't even there," said coworker.  My brother asked him "When did you come?  We had to leave to be elsewhere."  "Well, we were there at 8:30.  We knocked and knocked and walked around and looked in your windows, but YOU weren't home. Why did you invite us if you weren't going to be home?"  My brother finally said "The invitations said two to six.  Why didn't you come then?"  Co worker said something about Z Country being a place where people take their time and don't race around and everyone KNOWS that if an invitation gives hours, it just means it's a suggested time.  My brother, apparently, should have known all this, should have stayed home and waited because "Everyone knows we don't show up on time.  It's not our nature."  My brother smiled politely and bit his tongue to keep from suggesting that Coworker was certainly perpetuating a stereotype about his people.  He did not invite them to future functions and allowed Coworker to think what he liked.

I know the ethinicity you're referring to, and this type of behavior is typical amongst the neighbouring countries too. Nobody is on time for social events.

In 2000 I went back to the 'old country' for a holiday, and an old school friend was getting married. (We hadn't seen each other for years when we met up so the invitation was verbal - wedding was a few days away) She told me 12 noon at XYZ church. As it turned out my cousin and friend were running late and I was irritated that we were leaving home at 12 noon. We got to church at 12:45 and there were less than 10 people there, including us! The groom didnt get there till much later and the bride walked down the aisle at 3.30pm!!!

I think my cousin and I were the only ones irritated by this: everyone else was just going with the flow.

I was born in the UK and spent 5 years in the old country, so I've seen both sides. Most of the time people with a sense of decorum in UK will show up at the right time where it's specified on the invitation. e.g. with weddings and formal dinners even when only 'our people' are involved. As for house parties that are expected to go on all night, well, people still keep their own hours but it's less of a faux pas.

At this point, my colleague and I, I am ashamed to say, kind of stopped listening because it sounded less like a program on how to reach your patrons of foreign culture and more like an exercise in excusing the bad behavior of some irresponsible and stupid people  by couching the stereotype in positive language.

Sadly some people just want to keep their own stereotypes whereever they go. I've heard guys say "I don't take girls out on dates - African men don't do that" but you'll try and get her into bed, right?!

[bopper]

Different cultures have different perceptions of time. As another poster said, we tend to make value judgments about that...how Americans are "right, and on time" and the other culture is lazy. But really they are just cultural differences.  However, I would think if I moved to another country that had different perceptions of time, I would learn to work with it.  So the co-worker may need to learn that even social events may have a strict time frame.  However, if I went to a wedding in another country or even of a different culture within my own country, I might try to talk to somebody about what the real expectations are.

[IndianInlaw]

I once told someone that people of my ethnic group are rude and don't bathe.

He disagreed.

I said "Haven't you been to  (Ancestral country)?

He had to agree with me.

[Twik]

It's one thing to admit that different cultures have a different view of, if not Time itself, what constitutes "timeliness". Even in Western culture, there's a difference between what's seen as timely for, say, a cocktail party, versus church, versus an airflight. People have to learn that "be there at 8" may mean "exactly at 8", "no earlier than 8, and not later than 9:30", or "At least two hours before 8, so we can be darn sure you're ready to go by 8". The differences may be jarring to someone from outside the culture.

However, in the first instance, the co-worker was making a value judgement himself, that it was "rude" to end a party at the time scheduled. Also, the speaker in the second case was rude, I feel, in denying stereotypes if they are perceived as negative, but embracing them whenever they make her ethnicity appear superior. In other words, it's as rude to say "(X-type people) show up late because they're independent free spirits, as opposed to the uptight people who watch the clock", as it is to say "(X-type people) show up late because they're inconsiderate dorks".

Finally, I notice that Western culture covers the people who are always hours early for an event, as well as people who are always hours late (and, as Ogden Nash observed, they're usually married to the different type). I'm sure that even in less punctual cultures, you'll find a few people having anxiety attacks because they're only running 15 minutes early, instead of a full hour.

[Squeaks]

The reality is that some stereotypes actually are based in truth due to the fact that does reference an actual cultural trait/difference – and this is one.  I had a mild obsession in college with international business etiquette, and I repeatedly came across the idea that other countries just do not regard time the same as American, that they do tend to be “late” under the American idea, and time is more fluid, things happen when they happen, and take as long as they take.  What she said about the cultural view was not really wrong, or insulting – just different and presented poorly.

The speaker was not really being rude or negatively perpetuating a stereotype or being insulting, but was citing a valid cultural difference. The problem is when she forgot that in AMERICA it is RUDE to be LATE regardless of your cultural attitude.  As said I picked this up from reading up on international business etiquette i.e. learning how to politely function in other’s people’s counties by their rules. This is a case of when in Rome.  Yes we should respect each other’s cultural attitudes – but it goes both ways! When Americans are in loose time countries we should not be impatient about waiting and should accept that that is how it is done there, and likewise when other are in the USA they should respect that here a start time is fixed, and the elastic view of time is viewed as rude.  Different cultures have different rules, customs and laws, and yes it is good to share them and no them, but often people do need to put their’s on the back burner and accept these for which are normal where they currently are.   This is not some sort of biological trait that prevents punctuality, it’s a habit and a difference and something that can be modified.

I do not think she was harming a cultural reputation really since she was likely accurate, but she presented it poorly, and did use it as an excuse.  Just because someone has a valid cultural reason, does not necessarily make lateness not rude.  Yes their can be miscommunications and efforts to adapt, but a better tactic would be to find ways to help the transition (i.e. instead of saying x starts at y o’clock, say it starts at y o’clock and reading starts at z o’clock – something like that) rather than just giving excuses and encouraging people to continue in behavior that is seen by those around them as rude.

[hobish]

I would think she was harming a cultural reputation since she presented it so poorly. Whether there is a basis in truth for stereotypes or not, saying it's ok for a certain group to act a certain way because it's their nature makes it sound like they don't have the ability to learn any differently. Then again, i wasn't there.

Can't wait to get drunk & brawl tonight! Yay Friday!
>>>joking, of course<<<

[caranfin]

"American culture has a set concept of time and values a rigid punctuality" "FLS sees time as elastic and the desire  to savor the moment is more important than the need to be on time."  "American culture places an emphasis on decorum, quiet and a societal concept of manners." "FLS values the embracing of the moment and celebration over the artificial concepts of decorum." 

Those are some pretty judgmental things to say about American culture. "Artificial concepts" of decorum?

[MerryRaven]

Lilysuch

I know what conference you went too and I found it the same way.

I agree that you have to make an allowance for differences in culture, but if you are in a society that 'values timeliness' maybe you ought to try to adapt.

After all, if I were in a country that valued a more relaxed time frame, I would try to mellow out an fit in. 

[sparksals]

This is a complex issue.

I've spent most of the last 14 years overseas.  I'm Canadian, grew up near Vancouver, BC, and have lived in Japan, Korea, Australia, and the United Arab Emirates, as well as visited a number of other countries.  So, I've done the cross-cultural thing.

....snip....

Wordgeek - OT - When were you in Korea and for how long?  I spent 4 years teaching english and met my husband  who was stationed at Yongsan in Seoul.

[Virg]

hobgoblinish wrote:

"I would think she was harming a cultural reputation since she presented it so poorly. Whether there is a basis in truth for stereotypes or not, saying it's ok for a certain group to act a certain way because it's their nature makes it sound like they don't have the ability to learn any differently."

I think this touches on the crux of the problem, in that there are two things to be discussed here.  First is stereotyping, and second is cultural differences in etiquette.  For the first:

Lilysuch wrote:

"A few hands went up  "But didn't you just say that this was a STEREOTYPE?"  Apparently not.  She honestly could not see that this was a complete contradiction of what she had said in the morning."

This isn't a contradiction of stereotype.  The problem I have with stereotyping is that it's different from recognizing a cultural difference and reacting accordingly.  To give it the best example, I'll go with the "time being different" stereotype.  On one side, stereotyping is assuming that an FLS person is going to be late because "FLS people see time differently".  That's wrong, because the stereotype cannot be assumed to apply to any one given person, and my assuming so would be rude.  On the other side, if I attend a meeting in FLS-land, and the other participants are late, I have to understand that it's not considered rude because it's a cultural norm in FLS-land.  See the difference?

Now, I think it's deplorable that the man from Z used his culture as an excuse for getting upset at your brother, because he broke the second part of my example and then tried to push it to your brother to behave as they do in Z, even though he's not in Z.  Your brother did well to bite his tongue, because that kept him from committing 1 when what really happened was that someone tried to excuse themselves from 2 using that culture difference.

In the second case, though, I don't think the lecturer was wrong, nor was she excusing FLS people for being late.  She was pointing out that some FLS people will show up late, and that you should recognize that this is due to their culture, and while you needn't hold up story time for them, it wouldn't be right to assume they're rude, simply that they need to be told that punctuality is important.  In saying "...more like an exercise in excusing the bad behavior of some irresponsible and stupid people..." you fell into the stereotype, by assuming that the FLS people she described were irresponsible or stupid, instead of culturally ignorant.  I saw nothing in her description that said you weren't supposed to teach them "the American way", just that you shouldn't assume they know it before you encounter them.

Caranfin, of the statements you listed only the last is negative.  "American culture has a set concept of time and values a rigid punctuality" is only insulting if you view punctuality as a flaw, which most Americans do not.  "FLS sees time as elastic and the desire  to savor the moment is more important than the need to be on time." is also only a problem if  "the need to be on time" is bad, which again isn't so in America.  "American culture places an emphasis on decorum, quiet and a societal concept of manners."  This is true, and the words are neutral.

"FLS values the embracing of the moment and celebration over the artificial concepts of decorum."  Now this is a dig, but without "artificial" it still fits.  I think the lecturer shows her own prejudice in this statement, but it's still an accurate statement of a cultural difference, and I don't think this alone would be enough to negate her entire message.

Virg