How NOT to Break Stereotypes...

[LadyJaneinMD]

Well, I can tell you all right here and now that:

I am NOT jolly, although I have been accused of being good-natured.

I do NOT live on cakes, cookies,and candy.

I am NOT dumb.

I am NOT lazy.

There. Now y'all know. 

[VorFemme]

In the second case, the storytime, the FLS parents may not be intending to be rude.  To me, those intentions are important.  I would explain, as your brother did, the importance of the stated time.  New arrivals to the US, or people who aren't well integrated into society, might not be aware that 2pm storytime does, in fact, start at 2pm.  And for the record, "people who aren't well integrated into society" can include born and bred Americans, even those from European or WASP backgrounds.  Late arrivals can be told about the start time and taken to a different area.  If they want to hear the story, next time they can come at 2pm.

Yes, I agree, I second this, "ditto", pod, amen, right on, you got that straight, and all those other ways of saying "you hit the nail right on the head"!

[MadMadge43]

The problem is when she forgot that in AMERICA it is RUDE to be LATE regardless of your cultural attitude.

I just want to point out that this is a very limited view point. In America we have many different values and concepts. There are many influences that factor the many cultural societies here.

I think what you're trying to say is the American culture you belong to values punctuality. But there are many American cultures that do not, infact I have worked with many American cultures where punctuality is not valued and those people are every bit as American as anyone else.

[caranfin]

Caranfin, of the statements you listed only the last is negative.  "American culture has a set concept of time and values a rigid punctuality" is only insulting if you view punctuality as a flaw, which most Americans do not.  "FLS sees time as elastic and the desire  to savor the moment is more important than the need to be on time." is also only a problem if  "the need to be on time" is bad, which again isn't so in America.  "American culture places an emphasis on decorum, quiet and a societal concept of manners."  This is true, and the words are neutral.

"FLS values the embracing of the moment and celebration over the artificial concepts of decorum."  Now this is a dig, but without "artificial" it still fits.  I think the lecturer shows her own prejudice in this statement, but it's still an accurate statement of a cultural difference, and I don't think this alone would be enough to negate her entire message.

I see your point, but I'm afraid I must disagree. I find her words to be subtly (and in the case of words like "rigid" and "artificial," blatantly) biased toward FLS culture. For example, she uses the word "concept" in both instances when referring to Americans. As if manners and definite start/end times weren't real, but just some unnecessary "concept" those crazy uptight Americans came up with. What if she had said "American culture values dignity, peace, and an awareness of others' feelings" instead of "American culture places an emphasis on decorum, quiet and a societal concept of manners." She used that kind of positive, almost flowery language when speaking of FLS culture, but Americans "put an emphasis" on things that are "rigid." It wasn't necessarily done consciously, but I think she shows a clear distaste for American culture.

[Squeaks]

The problem is when she forgot that in AMERICA it is RUDE to be LATE regardless of your cultural attitude.

I just want to point out that this is a very limited view point. In America we have many different values and concepts. There are many influences that factor the many cultural societies here.

I think what you're trying to say is the American culture you belong to values punctuality. But there are many American cultures that do not, infact I have worked with many American cultures where punctuality is not valued and those people are every bit as American as anyone else.

So you would really tell someone going to a job interview with an American, in America with an American boss at an American company that it’s ok to be late?

Yes there are many different cultures that have gone into America but the overall American culture (ie. only one no s at the end!) does view being late as rude. And when you find me an HR rep that fits the above-referenced scenario that is ok with tardiness let me know and I will reconsider my view that late = rude over here.

All countries have a vague overlaying general culture and then many subcultures within. Maybe the subs are ok with tardiness, but the general one is not. If a sub-culture chooses to cling to a tradition from their culture that does not match the overlaying culture of the country they reside it, it does not automatically change the overlaying culture. (please note that I am not using sub to mean “sup par” or anything derogatory, only to indicate a culture within a culture) 

[MadMadge43]

While I would never think it would be ok to be late for any job interview anywhere, that was not my point.

My point is that we keep using the term "American" to describe only one specific culture in our country. When the term actually refers to all of them.

[Squeaks]

While I would never think it would be ok to be late for any job interview anywhere, that was not my point.

My point is that we keep using the term "American" to describe only one specific culture in our country. When the term actually refers to all of them.

Yes I am using American culture to describe the American culture

You keep making things plural its not.  Yes there are many cultures in American, but i am not talking about that i am talking about the singular American culture.  (see no s at the end) 

Yes there are many American cultures (plural) within America, there is also an American culture (in the singular) which is the best possible blend, compromise, and general representation of the prevailing ideas and attitudes.  For instance generally Americans view man and woman equal – the is not true in all parts of the world or all cultures, and there are areas/cultures within the USA that still do not subscribe to the idea of equality, all the same I think most people say that in the American culture men and women are equal.

[Athos_000]

I think that some of us are looking at this from a business standpoint. And taking that view, I agree with squeaks. Being on time IS important to every American business situation I have ever encountered. There are many different sub cultures that make up the American workforce, and they are all expected to be on time to work, regardless of their ethnicity.

[thebadchemist]

Well, I can tell you all right here and now that:

I am NOT jolly, although I have been accused of being good-natured.

I do NOT live on cakes, cookies,and candy.

I am NOT dumb.

I am NOT lazy.

There. Now y'all know. 

Oooh... I'm next!

I'm NOT good at math. (I'm really not... it's kind of sad)

I'm NOT a bad driver.

I do NOT speak gibberish.

I will NOT love you long time.

I'm NOT submissive nor docile.

[Wordgeek]

Wordgeek - OT - When were you in Korea and for how long?  I spent 4 years teaching english and met my husband  who was stationed at Yongsan in Seoul.

I was there for six years.  In Seoul (hogwan hell) 1996-2000, then at a uni in Chollanamdo 2001-2003. 

PM or email me if you'd like.  We can exchange anecdotes. ;-)

[Alida]

I think what you're trying to say is the American culture you belong to values punctuality. But there are many American cultures that do not, infact I have worked with many American cultures where punctuality is not valued and those people are every bit as American as anyone else.

I have had to adjust to the concept here that 15 minutes early to a scheduled event is barely making it on time.  I lost count of how many events I got to on time and was looked at oddly as being oh, so late.  I stopped that when I realized I was always the last person there!  The background I'm from, that would be horrendously rude, to come so early!  Late is typical for us, but I've adapted to the culture I'm in.  When I'm home, with family, though, we keep to our own values about time and whatnot. 

[blue2000]

I was once told by my dear, old Dad that almost all stereotypes about his country (drinking, fighting, other not so good things) were true.
I don't fit any of them, but 99% of his family actually does.

I really had to wonder if his family left because they wanted to, or if they were pushed out because they were giving the country a bad name.

[Yarnspinner]

I tried to post here yesterday, but when I did, my cat (who conforms to ALL the stereotypes of HER people) took a hefty swipe at me and demanded attention. 

You guys have given me a lot of angles to think about.  Still, in the context of the class, it really seemed more a contradiction than an exploration of cultural differences.  I will say that the lecturer said "Some of this class is going to make you VERY mad."  Oh, yes.


And with regard to things I am not:

Culture A:

Blond
Super endowed
Tanned
Endlessly Willing
Don't say "Yah" all the time.

Culture B:

Not hot blooded
Actually don't like fish (that goes for culture A, too) of any kind
Go to church and pray a lot, do not wander around in black shawl mumbling the rosary 24/7
Don't get into screaming matches in the streets even if we are just discussing a movie

Culture C:

I'm not cheap
Or red headed
or wearing a kilt
or eating the stomachs of dead animals

Culture D:

I am rarely polished

I am rarely rude

I'm SO not skinny

Or a master of love

I cannot cook with tons of wine and if I do, most of it will be inside me, not in the food.....

...And forget the snails....

[lady_disdain]

I once told someone that people of my ethnic group are rude and don't bathe.

He disagreed.

I said "Haven't you been to  (Ancestral country)?

He had to agree with me.

One of your observations is a hard fact (how habitually people bathe).

The second (people are rude) is not. I won't go into the American culture/cultures debate, but you made it clear that you are talking about a different country. Etiquette is not is not a single, global standard - each culture has its own. Some are more similar, other more different.

If you think an entire culture is rude, perhaps you are measuring them by the wrong standard. They may do thing that to your culture is rude, but not to them.

A trivial example: in my country, TY notes are unheard of (and the concept would be considered ridiculous). Why? Because, for us, thankfulness is expressed in person and not by a note, which would seem cold and snobbish, specially if written only because "etiquette says you have to".

At the same time, Americans seem rude to us, as they will often engage in "hostile" eye contact (from our point of view) and are often too brisk to be "nice" and "attentive".

[sparksals]

Wordgeek - OT - When were you in Korea and for how long?  I spent 4 years teaching english and met my husband  who was stationed at Yongsan in Seoul.

I was there for six years.  In Seoul (hogwan hell) 1996-2000, then at a uni in Chollanamdo 2001-2003. 

PM or email me if you'd like.  We can exchange anecdotes. ;-)

I was in Seoul from 2000 to late 2003.  Started out in Ilsan and move to Seoul after my hogwan hell.  Lived in Itaewon, met my husband there while he was stationed at Yongsan.

Where is Chollanamdo?  Who knows, maybe we knew each other if you came to Seoul from there!  I hung out at the Three Alley alot and I created a website that still gets tonnes of hits from people looking to go to Korea to teach english.