Author Topic: How NOT to Break Stereotypes...  (Read 5037 times)

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hobish

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Re: How NOT to Break Stereotypes...
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2007, 02:47:39 PM »
Quote
At the same time, Americans seem rude to us, as they will often engage in "hostile" eye contact (from our point of view) and are often too brisk to be "nice" and "attentive".

I'd like to ask the e-hellions your opinion about something. A friend of mine recently got back from spending a few years in the Peace Corps on an island in the South Pacific. She said that people from other cultures told her that talking to Americans as part of a group is difficult because we don't make eye contact. I thought that was kind of odd considering the emphasis i've heard put on eye contact, and how i've heard other people refer to Americans (and other cultures) as making too much eye contact to the point of seeming hostile, such as above.

I'm not sure this would be considered an etiquette issue per se, but it's definitely something i've heard differs from culture to culture. It seems to me like one of those things that would be quite difficult to adjust once you get used to a predictable amount of eye contact; but might put others off if you don't have the "right" amount. What do you think?

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pinacoladasundae

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Re: How NOT to Break Stereotypes...
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2007, 01:09:12 AM »
       Greetings, I’m sorry but I truly feel I need to clarify a few misunderstandings. I’m Mexican American, and this issue of etiquette has come up in my life quite a bit. It’s very difficult to explain my family’s view on this subject to my non-Latino friends. Perhaps the best I can say is that many cultures have completely different concepts of time. Although I believe in keeping the tight time constraints of my adopted culture (I Live in the USA and I am never late for any occasion) when with my family and friends of similar descent I use drastically different rules of etiquette. To us, arriving at the set begin time is perhaps the rudest thing one can do. For instance: (Yes, this is our logic)

1.)   What if the hosts are still preparing? A person will be a burden on the host if they arrive and the host must stop what they are doing to cater to the guest, and they (the host) must cater to them. Arriving about an hour late would be the polite thing to do because this shows that said person took the hosts position into consideration.
2.)   Arriving on time may make a person look like a “lazy moocher” at best. This action may make the guest seem as if he/she has nothing better to do then attend parties and not work. Showing up late lets each person know that a guest’s whole day is not centered on festivities. Lateness shows that the guest’s familial or work related obligations took priority.
3.)    Showing up on time may send the message that one is not comfortable with the host/hostess and arrived early as a form of passive aggressiveness. I.e.: I will ruin your party by hindering your ability to execute it.
a)   Even worse, perhaps they came on time to leave early! (Very big insult with our group).
   I do not really think that your “prejudiced” as you say, I just don’t think you are familiar with the mindsets, and etiquette of this particular culture, whatever it may be. If the individuals of this culture are at all like I am, perhaps they follow some of my family’s rules. I’ve learned through experience that punctuality can be sacred thing to some cultures, but not to others. That said, I do not think people who use their culture as an excuse for their behavior, such as arriving late for a party of a person with tighter time concepts, is acceptable. However, I would give leeway to some one who was unfamiliar with such rules.   That said I honestly feel that you mean well.
 ;D I hope i was helpful  ::)

« Last Edit: January 29, 2007, 03:25:47 PM by pinacoladasundae »

pinacoladasundae

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Re: How NOT to Break Stereotypes...
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2007, 01:11:08 AM »
In response to
"She honestly could not see that this was a complete contradiction of what she had said in the morning"
I'm sorry, but I do not see it either. May you please clarify? Thank you! ;D :) ;)

shadowfox79

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Re: How NOT to Break Stereotypes...
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2007, 06:55:49 AM »
I saw a lot of this stuff come up on some language/culture CDs I was using to learn French and Spanish. They were intended for an American audience, so some of the cultural advice was a little odd from my point of view - warning Americans that Europeans didn't swap around with the fork (I hadn't heard of this at the time), were not late all the time for business meetings, and weren't as "cheerful" as they were (I had an image of hordes of cheerful Americans walking around France telling everyone to have a nice day).

So, just for the record, as a European and a Brit, I am not prim and proper, I am not hopelessly amoral with regard to sex and drinking (I'm not sure how I could be both of those at the same time), I do not live in a rigid class system or a country estate, I hate tea, and I do not walk around looking miserable as sin  ;)

hobish

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Re: How NOT to Break Stereotypes...
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2007, 02:43:46 PM »

pinacoladasundae, i thought that was very enlightening. Thanks!
It's alright, man. I'm only bleeding, man. Stay hungry, stay free, and do the best you can.
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pinacoladasundae

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Re: How NOT to Break Stereotypes...
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2007, 03:23:06 PM »

pinacoladasundae, i thought that was very enlightening. Thanks!

You’re very welcome. I'm glad I was able to shed some light on a somewhat embarrassing situation. I greatly appreciate your reply.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2007, 03:27:46 PM by pinacoladasundae »

pinacoladasundae

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Re: How NOT to Break Stereotypes...
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2007, 03:42:12 PM »
Well, I can tell you all right here and now that:

I am NOT jolly, although I have been accused of being good-natured.

I do NOT live on cakes, cookies,and candy.

I am NOT dumb.

I am NOT lazy.

There. Now y'all know. 



Oooh... I'm next!

I'm NOT good at math. (I'm really not... it's kind of sad)

I'm NOT a bad driver.

I do NOT speak gibberish.

I will NOT love you long time.

I'm NOT submissive nor docile.



Yeah, me too!
Yes I speak English! (I tutor English!) (what truly gets my goat is when I'm told "You speak so well!")
No, I never curse. (In either language)
No I don't have any children.
Yes I'm legal.
No, I'm not looking for work in house keeping.
No, I'm not their nanny (asked when with lighter skinned young relatives.)
Yes, I have the right to vote. (Belive it or not I've had many problems in this area.)
No, I can't dance salsa. ( I can't count how may times I've had to explain that I have two left feet.)
No, you don't need to follow me around the store.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2007, 03:45:12 PM by pinacoladasundae »

kathrynne

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Re: How NOT to Break Stereotypes...
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2007, 03:50:25 PM »
I tried to post here yesterday, but when I did, my cat (who conforms to ALL the stereotypes of HER people) took a hefty swipe at me and demanded attention. 

You guys have given me a lot of angles to think about.  Still, in the context of the class, it really seemed more a contradiction than an exploration of cultural differences.  I will say that the lecturer said "Some of this class is going to make you VERY mad."  Oh, yes.


And with regard to things I am not:

Culture A:

Blond
Super endowed
Tanned
Endlessly Willing
Don't say "Yah" all the time.

Culture B:

Not hot blooded
Actually don't like fish (that goes for culture A, too) of any kind
Go to church and pray a lot, do not wander around in black shawl mumbling the rosary 24/7
Don't get into screaming matches in the streets even if we are just discussing a movie

Culture C:

I'm not cheap
Or red headed
or wearing a kilt
or eating the stomachs of dead animals

Culture D:

I am rarely polished

I am rarely rude

I'm SO not skinny

Or a master of love

I cannot cook with tons of wine and if I do, most of it will be inside me, not in the food.....

...And forget the snails....


Okay, you're cracking me up here, as are the other folk who clearly violate their stereotypes. You and I, however, share at least two parts of our heritage. For one part I am 100% stereotypical.

I often warn people that I'm a Scotch-Irish Scorpio with PMS. I don't bother mentioning the Swedish or Welsh part, but the other is a warning that I'm easily ticked off.

I fit the Scotch-Irish stereotype pretty well, but wish forms offered a "Vampire" box to check. Being 100% northern European, I live in constant fear of spontaneously combusting in direct sunlight.

Oh, and our kitties are also pretty darned stereotypical. How fun.
 

Slartibartfast

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Re: How NOT to Break Stereotypes...
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2007, 03:57:29 PM »
In response to
"She honestly could not see that this was a complete contradiction of what she had said in the morning"
I'm sorry, but I do not see it either. May you please clarify? Thank you! ;D :) ;)

Personally, I do see this as a contradiction.  I understand the point that "All members of X group are Y" is a stereotype, while "The culture of X group indicates Y is not rude" is different.  However, if those of us who are not in group X actually DO anything about a tendency (whether stereotypical, culturally influenced, etc) for Y, we are often guilty of prejudicial actions.

In the time example:  "All FLS are rude and come to storytime late" is obviously untrue.  "FLS culture doesn't emphasize being on time" may also be true, although it would be awfully presumptuous for someone who isn't FLS to say it.  However, if the library staff (who are primarily not FLS) choose to actually DO something based on "FLS people come late", they are opening themselves up for a host of problems and accusations.  A storytime aimed for FLS people that always starts half an hour after it says it will?  That's prejudice, based on the "All FLS are rude and come to storytime late" stereotype!  How dare you!  Why can't you just treat FLS people like your other patrons!  Etc. etc. etc.


I've got a frustrating problem in my library that highlights a number of the issues in this thread.  My supervisor (at the main library) and I are white; my boss (the mayor of the small town my branch is in) and 97% of the town residents are black.  My supervisor feels it's necessary for me to buy lots of children's books with black characters in them, and to forgive nearly all the fines accrued here, and to never take issue with parents who use the library as a free babysitting service, because "it's just part of the culture."  While it MAY be true that black children prefer to read books with pictures of black characters, I feel it is racist to only buy those books at the expense of other great children's literature.  Similarly, even though the "culture" here tends toward single parents who do a poor job of raising their children (my assessment), I take issue with having to babysit unattended kids because "it's just what they do down there."

Saying "In the black culture it is not a social stigma to be a single mother, therefore there are a number of single mothers who rely on the library as a safe place for their children while they work or do errands" still feels racist to me, even couched in positive terms, because we don't even feel the need to make that statement for white mothers.  It's like you're a "mom" or a "black mom" or a "black single mom," but white single moms are still just a "mom" (no modifiers attatched).  Actually acting on this idea (by ignoring the library policies on unattended minors in this branch while enforcing them elsewhere) feels even more racist.

I finally did get a policy changed - every other library branch would get noticed mailed four times a year to people who had accrued fines during those three months, or who had long-overdue materials.  Except my branch.  Apparently "If we mail out fine notices, a number of the parents will forbid their children to go to the library, and we don't want to deprive the children of the opportunity to learn.  So just get whatever materials back that you can, but don't bring up fines."  After finding that there were 40 movies that were just flat-out never returned over the last two years (oh, by the way, my annual movie budget covers about 40 movies, so that is over 50%), I got permission to have our fine notices mailed out too.  What a great policy - "We don't think they'll be good parents, so let's not tell them when their kids take home books and movies and never bring them back."

Bah, turned into a rant, but this is something I'm particularly sensitive to.  My supervisor is a bit racist (in a "but it's their CULTURE so we need to do everything different!" kind of way), and my boss the mayor is the one with her head screwed on straight.

pinacoladasundae

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Re: How NOT to Break Stereotypes...
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2007, 09:27:09 PM »
In response to
"She honestly could not see that this was a complete contradiction of what she had said in the morning"
I'm sorry, but I do not see it either. May you please clarify? Thank you! ;D :) ;)

Personally, I do see this as a contradiction.  I understand the point that "All members of X group are Y" is a stereotype, while "The culture of X group indicates Y is not rude" is different.  However, if those of us who are not in group X actually DO anything about a tendency (whether stereotypical, culturally influenced, etc) for Y, we are often guilty of prejudicial actions.

In the time example:  "All FLS are rude and come to storytime late" is obviously untrue.  "FLS culture doesn't emphasize being on time" may also be true, although it would be awfully presumptuous for someone who isn't FLS to say it.  However, if the library staff (who are primarily not FLS) choose to actually DO something based on "FLS people come late", they are opening themselves up for a host of problems and accusations.  A storytime aimed for FLS people that always starts half an hour after it says it will?  That's prejudice, based on the "All FLS are rude and come to storytime late" stereotype!  How dare you!  Why can't you just treat FLS people like your other patrons!  Etc. etc. etc.


I've got a frustrating problem in my library that highlights a number of the issues in this thread.  My supervisor (at the main library) and I are white; my boss (the mayor of the small town my branch is in) and 97% of the town residents are black.  My supervisor feels it's necessary for me to buy lots of children's books with black characters in them, and to forgive nearly all the fines accrued here, and to never take issue with parents who use the library as a free babysitting service, because "it's just part of the culture."  While it MAY be true that black children prefer to read books with pictures of black characters, I feel it is racist to only buy those books at the expense of other great children's literature.  Similarly, even though the "culture" here tends toward single parents who do a poor job of raising their children (my assessment), I take issue with having to babysit unattended kids because "it's just what they do down there."

Saying "In the black culture it is not a social stigma to be a single mother, therefore there are a number of single mothers who rely on the library as a safe place for their children while they work or do errands" still feels racist to me, even couched in positive terms, because we don't even feel the need to make that statement for white mothers.  It's like you're a "mom" or a "black mom" or a "black single mom," but white single moms are still just a "mom" (no modifiers attatched).  Actually acting on this idea (by ignoring the library policies on unattended minors in this branch while enforcing them elsewhere) feels even more racist.

I finally did get a policy changed - every other library branch would get noticed mailed four times a year to people who had accrued fines during those three months, or who had long-overdue materials.  Except my branch.  Apparently "If we mail out fine notices, a number of the parents will forbid their children to go to the library, and we don't want to deprive the children of the opportunity to learn.  So just get whatever materials back that you can, but don't bring up fines."  After finding that there were 40 movies that were just flat-out never returned over the last two years (oh, by the way, my annual movie budget covers about 40 movies, so that is over 50%), I got permission to have our fine notices mailed out too.  What a great policy - "We don't think they'll be good parents, so let's not tell them when their kids take home books and movies and never bring them back."

Bah, turned into a rant, but this is something I'm particularly sensitive to.  My supervisor is a bit racist (in a "but it's their CULTURE so we need to do everything different!" kind of way), and my boss the mayor is the one with her head screwed on straight.

Hello, and thank you for your reply. Now that it is put up in that way I do see where the contradiction lies. I was interpreting it in an entirely different way before. Thank you for clarifying, I greatly appreciate it! ;D

MerryRaven

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Re: How NOT to Break Stereotypes...
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2007, 06:15:22 PM »
I would guess I am a librarian sterotype.

My clothes aren't very stylish and tend toward comfortable.
I wear comfortable shoes.
I have 6 (sometimes 7) cats.
I wear bi-focals. 

However, I am not a spinster.
And I have never saved anyone from demons from dungeon demensions either.

Yarnspinner

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Re: How NOT to Break Stereotypes...
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2007, 01:24:37 AM »
Slartibartfast--Thank you for your explanation.  I had put off responding (no offense, Pinacoladasundae--it's been a terrible week and my brain was not in explanation mode--still isn't) and was glad to see that you said pretty much what I would have said, only better and with less rambling.  Sounds like you have your work cut out for you at your place of business as well.

Merry Raven:  I copy you on almost everything but:

1) I have one cat, not seven (thought sometimes she seems like there's more of her around)
2) I AM a spinster--or as we like to say "partner-free"  ;D
3) Well, I'm not Rupert Giles, Watcher and Librarian extraordinaire, but sometimes I FEEL as if I am living on the H*llmouth in Sunnydale.  Where's Buffy when you REALLY need her?

pinacoladasundae

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Re: How NOT to Break Stereotypes...
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2007, 09:22:52 PM »
     I’m sorry, but I do feel that I need to clarify my earlier statement. It seems that I have been giving other posters the wrong impression of my logic. When I wrote that I did not see the contradiction I meant between these two quotes exactly and nothing else.

1.) ("We talk too loud," she said "we're all illegal,we're slow and lazy,  we're flashy, we breed like bunnies.")

2.) "American culture has a set concept of time and values a rigid punctuality" "FLS sees time as elastic and the desire  to savor the moment is more important than the need to be on time."

 
   I assumed the contradiction the OP stated were about these two quotes alone, only because I assumed the quote at the bottom was directed at the two quotes above. 

“She honestly could not see that this was a complete contradiction of what she had said in the morning”
   
  I’m very grateful Slartibartfast attempted to give light to the situation, but now that I’ve read it again I do feel I may have mislead quite a few of the posters. I’m very sorry if I gave any of you the wrong impression.
Thank you.

Balletmom

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Re: How NOT to Break Stereotypes...
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2007, 09:32:42 PM »
There's an old saying that I think should apply to everyone visiting or living in other countries...

"When in Rome..."

(do as the Romans do.")

Or as my elegant friend Marisol from Venezuela puts it, "You're not there now! You're in America!"

Using your culture as an excuse for what is perceived as rudeness while living in another culture, is just that--rudeness.

Yarnspinner

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Re: How NOT to Break Stereotypes...
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2007, 11:46:32 PM »
Pinacolada--

It's okay--I didn't take offense.  I know my OP could be interpreted any number of ways.  (I went back and read it and honestly, I got confused.)

Also, I keep meaning to say "Thank you" for the neat background on time and it's context.  That was really interesting and helps explain things.  You've been very helpful and you have a great sense of humor, too!  (I loved your "I am not..." description.)

Keep those smiley emoticons coming!

Lily