Not sure if this is a silly question... (firearm related)

[jimithing]

We had the Trolley Square shooting her in Salt Lake City, in April.  There was on off duty police officer who happened to be eating dinner at the mall, with his wife, and he played a crucial role in taking down the shooter.  But he's not Joe Schmo who took a CW class and decided that he was going to play a hero and prevent this from happening.  I just think that this kind of situation is highly unlikely, not saying not possible, and yet the numbers for CW permits spiked after the mall shooting. 

Joe Shmoe probably does a lot more shooting with his gun then the average cop. Many officers carry a weapon they have never even fired and can't field strip. They qualify once a year, sometines with a different gun entirely, and never go practice on the range. 

If the individual has a concealed carry license they probably got far more training then the average officer.

I respect our police force, but many of them carry because they are expected too, and have little or no gun safety skills. (I don't think that means they should not carry, I think that means they need to be paid to hit the range once a month with their service weapon.)

I have never taken a class before, but in a CW class, are you trained to kill someone?  I am truly curious.  Obviously, a police officer is, and I know many police officers who go to the range on a weekly basis, and shoot quite often. I work with them every single day.

I just think that there tends to be this attitude that if they had a CW permit and a gun on them, these shooting wouldn't have happened, and things would turn out differently.  Joe Schmo isn't generally trained or prepared for a combat type of situation.

We had a young woman killed and shot in a robbery, recently, because she had a gun in her purse, which she attempted to get, and the robber saw it and killed her.  They said that was the sole reason she was shot.

I agree that there are situations where this can happen, and this is the rub of a conversation like this.  We can all give specific examples if situations where it did work and where it didn't and we just go around in circles.  Unfortunately, in my experience, many of the people I talked to who wanted a CW permit after the mall shooting didn't want to get it for self defense.  It was because they wanted to "take out a bad guy" if they needed to. That kind of mentality scares me.

[oogyda]

I may well be repeating other answers here as I'm replying without reading everything else.

If you are entering someone's home, you should leave your weapon in the (locked, of course) car.  I don't care about your "personal statement", that's just rude. 

If you entered my home armed, I would be insulted that you question your safety while here.  If you have doubts, perhaps you shouldn't come over. 

I have at times had a CDW permit for various reasons, but I would NEVER consider taking my weapon, open or concealed into a private home for social reasons.

ETA:  Reminded by Oogydad to CAREFULLY review what open carry is.  In many states, if a weapon is even partially obscured it would be considered concealed.  Even in a hip holster, a jacket could cover too much.

[Warbaby]

I have never taken a class before, but in a CW class, are you trained to kill someone?  I am truly curious.  Obviously, a police officer is, and I know many police officers who go to the range on a weekly basis, and shoot quite often. I work with them every single day.

Unless there is a big difference in other areas, the answer is a resounding "No".  Neither are police officers trained to kill someone.  They are trained to hit a target.  Like the military, that target is usually a man-sized silhouette target.

As a former soldier and a trainer, I can tell you that the hardest thing to overcome in training a soldier is the natural reluctance to take a human life.  That is the whole reason for the silhouette targets.

I will also tell you that the average person, unless he/she is willing to expend time weekly on a firing range, is not going to acquire and maintain the skills necessary to deploy a handgun effectively.  Most of the men and women I know who carry spend at least two to four hours a week on a range.  Granted, a significant percentage of these are as I am, retired military.

There are several good books out there on the effect of armed citizenry on crime rates.  Two of the foremost authors are John Lott and Gary Heck(sp?).  I would recommend either of them.  I believe both of them recount the experiences of Kennesaw, Georgia, and Whateverthetownwas, Illinois.  One passed a complete ban on firearms and the other passed a law, mocking the ban, requiring every household to have a firearm.

Just an aside, if you do not like and are, in fact, afraid of firearms, do not be afraid to let your friends and neighbors who do carry and come in your home know.  The last thing a responsible gun owner wants is to alienate anyone.  

[kathrynne]

Look at stories of shootings--you rarely read when a citizen stops a bad guy.  But it happens. 
That last church shooting felled the bad guy because a FEMALE had a gun and used it.  In church.  Quick and dirty in the press, but she saved potentially dozens of lives.

That's a fairly local story here, so I'll add a few details for you. Quoting from a story about that parishioner with the gun who injured the shooter to the point where he took his own life (covered in later stories):

Assam worked as a police officer in downtown Minneapolis during the 1990s and is licensed to carry a weapon. She attends one of the morning services and then volunteers as a guard during another service

She wasn't just any woman with a weapons permit, she was an ex-cop who worked as a security guard for the church. They had heard about the shootings hours earlier in the missionary school, so instead of being the minister's personal bodyguard she was on guard near the entrance that day, and all of the security people were on hyper-alert. While the link below includes the above quote, my information comes from a near-deluge of articles in local news sources about the two incidents and all things related to them.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14817480/detail.html



modified because of a tpyo

[jimithing]

I have never taken a class before, but in a CW class, are you trained to kill someone?  I am truly curious.  Obviously, a police officer is, and I know many police officers who go to the range on a weekly basis, and shoot quite often. I work with them every single day.

Unless there is a big difference in other areas, the answer is a resounding "No".  Neither are police officers trained to kill someone.  They are trained to hit a target.  Like the military, that target is usually a man-sized silhouette target.

As a former soldier and a trainer, I can tell you that the hardest thing to overcome in training a soldier is the natural reluctance to take a human life.  That is the whole reason for the silhouette targets.

I will also tell you that the average person, unless he/she is willing to expend time weekly on a firing range, is not going to acquire and maintain the skills necessary to deploy a handgun effectively.  Most of the men and women I know who carry spend at least two to four hours a week on a range.  Granted, a significant percentage of these are as I am, retired military.

There are several good books out there on the effect of armed citizenry on crime rates.  Two of the foremost authors are John Lott and Gary Heck(sp?).  I would recommend either of them.  I believe both of them recount the experiences of Kennesaw, Georgia, and Whateverthetownwas, Illinois.  One passed a complete ban on firearms and the other passed a law, mocking the ban, requiring every household to have a firearm.

Just an aside, if you do not like and are, in fact, afraid of firearms, do not be afraid to let your friends and neighbors who do carry and come in your home know.  The last thing a responsible gun owner wants is to alienate anyone.  

Thanks for the information, Warbaby.  I guess it would have been more accurate for me to have said that officers are trained in a completely different manner than John Q Citizen is. This issue can get very heated on both sides, and it's a tough one, and I don't think that either side is right. (Well, actually, I think I'm right, but I can see both points.  )

I know that Japan doesn't allow any citizens to own guns, while in Switzerland, everyone owns a gun, due to the way their militia is set up, and they both have very low crime rates.

*edited for clarity

[ACBNYC]

There are several good books out there on the effect of armed citizenry on crime rates.  Two of the foremost authors are John Lott and Gary Heck(sp?).  I would recommend either of them.  I believe both of them recount the experiences of Kennesaw, Georgia, and Whateverthetownwas, Illinois.  One passed a complete ban on firearms and the other passed a law, mocking the ban, requiring every household to have a firearm.

I'm very curious to know which town has a higher crime rate, if you don't mind playing spoiler!

[jais]

DF was a Marine, works on an Armored truck, and he will soon be a police officer.  Many of his friends were also in the Corps.  They ARE trained to kill someone and are very comfortable around guns.

That said, I really have no interest whatsoever in anyone wearing a loaded weapon into my home.  There's no need.  The first thing DF does when he gets home is lock his up.

I have no issues with guns in general, I fired a gun the first time at age 4 and have continuted to do so. I do have an issue with someone wanting to be armed while eating dinner/chatting in my home.

[geordicat]

I hate to say it, but having been on the wrong end of a .44 during a robbery (for minimum wage, of course) and having had an ex-roommate's BF threaten me and my critters with his many guns (he was a gun dealer), there's no way I could stand to even look at anyone carrying openly other than a police officer or uniformed soldier. I'd be hitting up my Valium stash if in public, and denying entry to my home if on my porch.

I realize they're necessary in many circumstances, but once you've had someone threaten to gut-shoot you for $3.35 an hour it kinda changes your perspective.

I'm with you... I've been there as well.  Guns TERRIFY me.  Without going into detail, let's just say that I've had one waved about my face.  I wouldn't want someone to bring one into my house.

Now, in all fairness, I have quite an extensive knife collection.  All sorts of knives and sharp shiny pointed things, all proudly on display right by my front door.  If it freaks someone out, I can easily remove them from view.  And, just like with a gun, there are rules.  People may hold them, but NOT point them at each other or pretend to have a knife fight.  If you're going to have a weapon, learn how to handle it.

[TamJamB]

I am not frightened of guns -- I was raised around them.  I don't own one at the moment, although my husband owns 2 rifles and a shotgun.  I'm going to get a handgun this year (my son, who is in the Navy, bought my husband a shotgun on his last deployment and he wants to buy me a pistol for my birthday).  I will take a class, of course, and go to the pistol range frequently.  I want the gun for home protection, but also to have a hobby to enjoy with my son, parents and husband.

That said -- I do think it's best for you to ask before bringing a gun into a friend's home.  The no-guns thing is clearly a common enough 'house rule' that you can't assume you will not be offending someone if you don't check first.  And the pretense that they may not have noticed your gun is exactly the best way to ask about it.  Make sure (since this is so common a house rule) that you give them the 'out' up front: "Say, you may not have noticed that I always carry a gun.  It's perfectly legal, but I know many people don't care to have firearms in their homes.  I can leave it in the car, if you prefer."

[Warbaby]

There are several good books out there on the effect of armed citizenry on crime rates.  Two of the foremost authors are John Lott and Gary Heck(sp?).  I would recommend either of them.  I believe both of them recount the experiences of Kennesaw, Georgia, and Whateverthetownwas, Illinois.  One passed a complete ban on firearms and the other passed a law, mocking the ban, requiring every household to have a firearm.

I'm very curious to know which town has a higher crime rate, if you don't mind playing spoiler!

Kennesaw, Georgia's crime rate went out the bottom (and I still can't think of the town in Illinois!).  BTW, the same thing happened in Orlando, Florida after a series of violent rapes.  Women there were buying firearms in record quantities.  The police chief, instead of freaking out, offered free courses in both safety and use.  The violent crime rate dropped to virtually zero.

For the record, I've had both knives and guns pulled on me.  Thankfully, there has only been one time in my life that I had to pull the trigger and I do not know, nor want to know, whether I hit that person.  In the other instances, the person with the knife/gun quickly realized the error of their ways when they were confronted with my weapon.  

[kathrynne]

I certainly don't advocate that everyone carry... and also, the crook didn't know that your manager had a gun until he had his gun out.

Eddie never got near his gun. He started to bolt toward the back of the store and the guy NOT holding a gun on me grabbed him before he made his third step. The guy holding the .44 moved it closer to my belly, and without moving I said, "Eddie, DON'T. Whatever you think you're going to do, don't do it."

I would have been dead or dying long before he had reached the stockroom, much less flung open the door, found his gymbag, gotten the gun from the bottom of the gymbag and started back toward the front of the store. Even if he'd had the gun on his person at the time (not allowed by the company), he would have gotten ME killed (and likely everyone else in the store) for no good reason.

He wasn't the smartest guy in the world, either. When the officers took descriptions of the perps, he mixed up the tall skinny guy wearing a mask with the tall burly guy with the gun and no mask. The guy who told me, "Go ahead, honey. Get a good look and memorize my face. Get every detail." That allows for two probabilities: either he has no record and no fear of being caught or he has no intention of letting me live through the event.

It's one of those memories I would love to have someone excise because every tiny detail is there, ready to flash at the smallest provocation.

[Leather Lady]

We heard an unusual noise towards the back of the house, and my late DH, a former Marine and avid outdoorsman, headed outside with his tomahawk and the dog.  When he returned, I asked him why he didn't take one of the arsenal of guns he owned?  He replied, "When someone sees a gun, they think either he will miss, or I will die.  When someone sees a tomahawk or a Rottweiler, they think "this is going to huuurrrrrttt!'" 
LL

[Alida]

She wasn't just any woman with a weapons permit, she was an ex-cop who worked as a security guard for the church. They had heard about the shootings hours earlier in the missionary school, so instead of being the minister's personal bodyguard she was on guard near the entrance that day, and all of the security people were on hyper-alert. While the link below includes the above quote, my information comes from a near-deluge of articles in local news sources about the two incidents and all things related to them.

However, the ex-officer did not kill the man.  He killed himself.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3982722

I do believe, however, that the woman's actions did save lives there.

A few months ago, I was speaking with a fellow martial artist, who is a police officer.  Before I even took my gun to the range to shoot it the first time, I was familiar with it, inside and out.  I could field strip it, clean it, re-assemble it.  I had to know it before using it.  She was amazed.  That wasn't something she had to do and she was STILL uncomfortable when she shot.  She was impressed my 14 year old was so much more comfortable with weapons than she was.

I also know citizens personally who have defended themselves with weapons, including a young teenager who had the presence of mind to grab his father's shotgun, keeping the home intruder from harming him when he was home alone.

DH outshoots nearly every officer we know.  A friend of his, who is ex-Special Forces, is the only one DH has yet to outshoot  

Oh, and when I carry, I use a holster where I can access the gun quickly.  Digging around in my purse?  Not cool.

edited because I cannot spell today!

[jais]

We heard an unusual noise towards the back of the house, and my late DH, a former Marine and avid outdoorsman, headed outside with his tomahawk and the dog.  When he returned, I asked him why he didn't take one of the arsenal of guns he owned?  He replied, "When someone sees a gun, they think either he will miss, or I will die.  When someone sees a tomahawk or a Rottweiler, they think "this is going to huuurrrrrttt!'" 
LL

That's funny! 

[Kendo_Bunny]

That's the other reason I don't want to concealed carry- fishing for the gun when it's necessary immediately. I carry a huge Army medic's bag as a purse, and it's usually filled with books. On my person- there's no good place to conceal. Also, rather than having the criminal debate whether or not I'm carrying, I want to make sure he knows that I'm carrying. I'm also an excellent shot, and try to practice at least once a month (the fourth cylinder I ever fired was 9 headshots out of 9- my boyfriend play-sulks that I'm a better shot than he is, even though he's former military and practices almost every week).

And I have to admit, this all becomes completely theoretical if I visit a friend, in, say, the bad part of Richmond. Whether they're comfortable or not, my gun will go wherever I do, because there's a very real risk of being assaulted from or to my car. In a bad neighborhood, I'd wait until I got into my friend's house, unstrap, unload if they wanted, and leave the thing in a safe place near their door if they were uncomfortable with it. Then I'd reload and restrap before setting foot outside their house. Then again, I can't think of anyone living in such a high crime neighborhood objecting to my desire to be armed as I walked to my car. My sweetheart is friends with a girl who was mugged four times just walking through a parking lot in that area.