Should We Expect More of Religious Figures?

[NEDESAPIO]

I ask this question because of an incident that happened yesterday.  I go to a Catholic church -- not because I'm particularly "Catholic" (I was born Catholic but have studied other religious traditions, including Christian Science and Judaism), but because I find the services restful.  Anyway, yesterday there was a new soloist (singer) at the church -- a young guy, and he seemed to be in charge of the choir that day.  As you may know, Catholic services start with a hymn accompanying the procession of the priest down the main aisle of the church.  Well, yesterday the new choir guy made a mistake and began the service too early.  By this I mean he began the opening hymn before the priest, alter boys, etc. were assembled at the back of the church for their procession; as a result, they were forced to enter through the side door instead and process down a short side aisle.  In other words, the Mass got off to rather an unorthodox start.

Well, the priest was obviously very annoyed at this; throughout the Mass he shot angry looks over at the new choir guy and delivered most of the service in an abrupt, irritated tone of voice.

I almost expected him to say something during the sermon, or homily.  But as it turned out, another priest gave the homily.

However, as we were leaving the church at the end we saw/heard him "dressing down" the new choir guy -- in front of a lot of people.

Now, the question I'm going to ask here is this:  should we hold people who proclaim to be religious -- this includes priests, nuns, ministers, rabbis, etc. as well as "ordinary" people who define themselves as religious -- to a higher standard of courtesy than that which we'd hold most people to?  I understand that these religious fugures are not perfect simply because they are religious and get angry just like anyone else.  But should we expect them to hide their anger more and show more politeness, regardless of how they feel?  To set a good example, in other words?

I'm going to venture an opinion.  It seems to me that when one goes to church or talks to a clergyman or clergywoman one should have a different experience than one has at, say, work or the grocery store -- and that part of this "difference" should be because people are just more courteous, more patient, etc. than they are in most "everyday" places.  In short, people get annoyed at "little" things all the time in everyday life -- shouldn't church, temple, etc. provide a different kind of experience, one of patience?

Or perhaps I'm being unrealistic?

What do you think?   

[Lisbeth]

Yes, we should expect religious figures to practice what they preach.

We expect religious leaders to provide us with spiritual guidance and direction in our lives, and like any leaders we expect them to be examples for us to follow.

While it's true that everyone, including religious figures and leaders of all fields are human, I think that we should not be watching them to eagerly catch them in error, but if they do commit errors, they need to be held to a higher standard when they are caught.

[Rei-chan]

Personally, I think that everyone, regardless of religion, should be held to higher standards of politeness in society.  People get away with to much rudeness these days.

However, to answer the specific question, I think that if someone is representing themselves in the capacity of a religious leader or merely a very religious person, then they should act in a way that is representative of what their religion teaches.  Otherwise, it gives off a message of "Do as I say, not as I do.", which is very hypocritical IMO.

[Ulla dances in a silly way]

This is one reason why I avoid all organized religion. There's nothing like a preacher on a power trip.

I think we should be able to expect better from religious figures particularly ones in teaching positions. If we are supposed to learn how to save our eternal souls from these people, they should at least be someone we can respect and uphold as someone to learn from. No, I don't expect them to be perfect, but they should at least be able to control themselves at "work" (church/service/Mass/etc.)

Like Keenreader said, they should practice what they preach.

-Ulla

[blue2000]

I think we shouldn't hold them to too high a standard - some people pounce on every mistake, and that is just as wrong. No one is perfect.

However, in this instance, the priest only gets a pass for being irritated - but NOT for showing his irritation so blatantly in front of the congregation. He could have used the situation as a lesson to the people about "what is the right (religious) thing to do when someone annoys you".

Instead he showed everyone what not to do. 

And very likely put some people off the church with his ugly manners. Not a good thing.

[Bijou]

I ask this question because of an incident that happened yesterday.  I go to a Catholic church -- not because I'm particularly "Catholic" (I was born Catholic but have studied other religious traditions, including Christian Science and Judaism), but because I find the services restful.  Anyway, yesterday there was a new soloist (singer) at the church -- a young guy, and he seemed to be in charge of the choir that day.  As you may know, Catholic services start with a hymn accompanying the procession of the priest down the main aisle of the church.  Well, yesterday the new choir guy made a mistake and began the service too early.  By this I mean he began the opening hymn before the priest, alter boys, etc. were assembled at the back of the church for their procession; as a result, they were forced to enter through the side door instead and process down a short side aisle.  In other words, the Mass got off to rather an unorthodox start.

Well, the priest was obviously very annoyed at this; throughout the Mass he shot angry looks over at the new choir guy and delivered most of the service in an abrupt, irritated tone of voice.

I almost expected him to say something during the sermon, or homily.  But as it turned out, another priest gave the homily.

However, as we were leaving the church at the end we saw/heard him "dressing down" the new choir guy -- in front of a lot of people.

Now, the question I'm going to ask here is this:  should we hold people who proclaim to be religious -- this includes priests, nuns, ministers, rabbis, etc. as well as "ordinary" people who define themselves as religious -- to a higher standard of courtesy than that which we'd hold most people to?  I understand that these religious fugures are not perfect simply because they are religious and get angry just like anyone else.  But should we expect them to hide their anger more and show more politeness, regardless of how they feel?  To set a good example, in other words?

I'm going to venture an opinion.  It seems to me that when one goes to church or talks to a clergyman or clergywoman one should have a different experience than one has at, say, work or the grocery store -- and that part of this "difference" should be because people are just more courteous, more patient, etc. than they are in most "everyday" places.  In short, people get annoyed at "little" things all the time in everyday life -- shouldn't church, temple, etc. provide a different kind of experience, one of patience?

Or perhaps I'm being unrealistic?

What do you think?   

Patience is the key word...and so is kindness, which this priest seems to be sorely lacking.  I am imagining how moritified and embarrassed the new choir guy must have been at his mistake.  And how that priest magnified and drew attention to it.  If anything, that priest should have been concerned about how bad the man must have been feeling and done what he could to make him feel better.  What he did is shameful.
 

[Morty'sCleaningLady]

It was inappropriate of the priest to berate the choir guy where people could hear the exchange.  We don't know what discussion may have occurred previously.  I'm Catholic and know the director of music at my parish.  My DOM clears all song choices with the pastor earlier in the week to ensure matching themes.  Is it possible that the priest had explained protocol to the young choir leader several times and the choir leader didn't listen?  It's possible the choir leader was one of those that thinks everything being sung is the best option ever.  Perhaps this wasn't a music centered Mass? 

[NEDESAPIO]

Leprchn:  The more I consider it, the more I have to disagree with some of what you write.  I understand what you're trying to say in comparing the church to the workplace.  In this sense, the priest is like a "boss."  On the other hand, dressing down someone in a place where others can see/hear is just not done.  Most of us would think it rude if a boss yelled at his employee in front of his/her co-workers rather than in the privacy of the boss' office -- why should a priest be allowed to behave differently?

As to the setting a good example, I think there's a very fine line between a "teacher" (religious leader) learning as he or she goes and "do what I say, not what I do."  If we can't at least expect kindness, patience, and courtesy from those who preach those very virtues, then who can we expect it from?  Sometimes the expectations aren't going to be fulfilled, because priests (or ministers or rabbis) are only human after all.  But the expectation should at least be present.  And I don't believe it's "arrogant" to have that expectation.

The last aspect of the story I want to point to is the fact that the priest let the incident, which happened at the start of Mass, affect his tone for the rest of the service:  it was harsh and abrupt, and he looked angry.  To my mind it was unfair of him to let Mass turn into a tense experience for his congregation when it was in his power to conceal his anger, however justified he might have been in feeling it. 

[Gyro Widget]

Now, the question I'm going to ask here is this:  should we hold people who proclaim to be religious -- this includes priests, nuns, ministers, rabbis, etc. as well as "ordinary" people who define themselves as religious -- to a higher standard of courtesy than that which we'd hold most people to?

Yes, if that is the lifestyle they choose, they must set a good example.  I understand that everybody makes mistakes, but I think that priest needs a lesson in FORGIVENESS.. you know, they *kinda* talk about it a lot in the bible, especially the New Testament.   

The layperson (like an assistant minister) at my hometown church constantly cheats on his wife.  Word gets around easily because it is such a small town and they seem to be open to telling about it.  A lot of people have actually stopped going to church because the thought of someone preaching who committs adultery on a regular basis is enough to churn ones stomach.  It is one thing to sin then ask for forgiveness, but to do it OVER and OVER and OVER is a while other story.  It just amazes me how he can be at the front of the altar, preaching the very things he does not uphold. 

But maybe he thinks that his robes are hell-proof.... I have no idea.   

[Alida]

My FIL was a minister.  He was a missionary to Mexico while DH was growing up.  - He left MIL after 30 years of marriage for a woman he'd met while giving her marital counseling.

Another pastor I once respected (his son and my brother were close friends in HS), who had a thriving ministry of over 1500 members.  He kept whiskey in his office bathroom's medicine cabinet (Son couldn't wait to show us, he had been shocked).  He left his wife and family for another man.

I learned the hard way not to expect more from religious figures.  My faith is between me and my God

[Gyro Widget]

If you view the Priest as the head of the company branch office holding a board meeting on Sunday morning, the event you describe is no different than dressing down an employee in front of external members or customers, even a few is a few too many.

IMHO, religion, and priesthood in particular, is nothing like a business and could hardly be compared to it.  

A boardroom director does not uphold the morals of society, which gives him somewhat leeway to be mean.  Not saying it is a good thing for him to be mean either, but a priest is a leader, a helper with people's spiritual journey... not a boss by any stretch of the imagination.  A priest is not "in charge" and has no right to pass judgement, he is simply a guide.  

For one thing, he got angry at the man for starting his song off cue... how petty was that??  While a "boss" can get away with yelling at an employee for messing up, a priest shouldn't even go there, or else there would be a lot of turned off church-goers.  

[Pixie]

We shouldn't expect more, but we do.  Same  with doctors and judges, but we're all human.

[jibby]

I do believe that religious leaders must be held to a higher standard; their purpose is to lead their flock and set an example.  And yes, the place of worship should be a peaceful place, one we attend to recover from daily life and nurture a spiritual connection with our diety-of-choice.  If it isn't, what's the point?

That being said, religious leaders are still human, and while the priest was out of line for losing his temper, that is a human reaction (one for which he deserves forgiveness).  Letting his irritation set the tone for the rest of the service is the part I find appalling.