Author Topic: Okay, this one REALLY bugged me...  (Read 22427 times)

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LissaR1

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Re: Okay, this one REALLY bugged me...
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2007, 11:57:26 AM »
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No one said it was a bad decision LissaR1. We are upset by how proud she is about this decision, one made by many, many women. She is so proud that she is alienating her parents for fear that someone might wonder if she actually fulfilled that decision or not.

Actually, although it was posted after I made my original point, Jaywalker did :) 

But seriously.  I'm having a bit of a hard time articulating this, so bear with me.  Okay.

The term "hard-earned" is actually what doesn't bother me, and is what I'm defending.  The flip comments about Rapunzel in a tower and swarms of visgoths out to steal a woman's chastity are as uncalled for, I think, as the writer's original statement.  I think my reasoning for this is that I'm seeing the bride not wanting a courthouse wedding and the intimidation used by the bride and groom as cause and effect, not the same issue.  Does that make sense?  The bride has chosen this value, achieved her goal, and has a specific image in mind.  This is fine with me.  Then to get the image that she wants, she shakes down her parents.  This is NOT fine. 

I don't have a problem with the bride's vision.  Why should I?  It's her vision and her ideal, and she's not saying that everyone should have it.  But that's what I see being cut down, is her vision.  There is nothing wrong with wanting whatever kind of wedding you want- be it a big white wedding with all the frills, a simple courthouse wedding, a Goth ceremony, or a wedding on the beach.  It's how you handle getting what you want (or not gettign what you want!) that's key.

Her behavior was inexcusable.  The fact she wanted something more than a courthouse wedding was perfectly fine with me.

I'm not at all complaining about the comments that pick on her behavior.  But comments like

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The bride must have attended the Rapunzel tower school and with mandatory haircuts to keep the unclean hordes from climbing in and tainting her.

and

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Is she implying that she maintained her "right" despite being gorgeous and having a lot of offers; or is she implying that she once knifed a would-be r*pist?

are more what I'm talking about. My original point was I'd like to see people cut the girl some slack for saying that remaining a virgin until marriage is difficult, because darn it, it IS! :) 


pryncsskittyn

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Re: Okay, this one REALLY bugged me...
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2007, 12:05:37 PM »
I can see where you'd be chastising me (not speaking for anyone else here).
I don't mind her vision of her perfect day... that's her decision to make.
I can definetly see how it was hard earned.  I'm only upset over the fact she implies that it is the "right" of a virgin to wear a white wedding dress.  I take that as meaning I don't get to wear one because I'm not a virgin?  In her view anyway.... I find that a closed minded thought and hurtful to people like me.  I wasn't really lighting into her with my comment about my 6 year old, just making a joke.  I'd have said it to her face if she were my friend, not ever meaning harm, just cracking a joke.

LissaR1

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Re: Okay, this one REALLY bugged me...
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2007, 12:16:10 PM »
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I can definetly see how it was hard earned.  I'm only upset over the fact she implies that it is the "right" of a virgin to wear a white wedding dress.  I take that as meaning I don't get to wear one because I'm not a virgin?  In her view anyway.... I find that a closed minded thought and hurtful to people like me.  I wasn't really lighting into her with my comment about my 6 year old, just making a joke.  I'd have said it to her face if she were my friend, not ever meaning harm, just cracking a joke.

Ah, I see. 

I guess the reason I don't get worked up over the "right" aspect is because, well, it used to be that way.  I don't agree with it at all, but I guess I just found that thinking archaic, more than offensive.  But I can certainly see why people would find it offensive. 

Ergh.  Must go- toddler tantrum over not being allowed to help type.

snowflake

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Re: Okay, this one REALLY bugged me...
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2007, 01:14:54 PM »
but it is often a red flag that the groom is not that into sexual intimacy or has some serious hangups and since it is fairly unusual in our culture today, one has to wonder just what motivates it -- I would hazard that for many of those who haven't had sex together before marriage that it wasn't 'difficult' to abstain


This is where things get rude again.  It's rude to speculate on the reasons that adults make decisions that they have a right to make.  People make decisions for varied reasons, good and bad.  Reading bad decisions into people who don't make the SAME decision is just plain tacky.

It is rude for alcoholics to say that those who have "gone dry" obviously weren't real alcoholics and have never had a craving.

It is rude for people who went to uni and dropped out to denigrate the education of others just because they had a bad experience.

It is rude to assume that people who made the same decision that you did had the same poor outcomes.

Not every man who waits until marraige is disinterested in sex.  I have made the choice to cut back on sugar, but it's not because I'm not interested in it.

I once had someone tell me that she had a terrible divorce with her first husband (who she slept with before the marraige) and I would suffer the same fate if I didn't keep things chaste with my then boyfriend (who is now my husband.)  I thought that was sort of rude.  I think the reverse is equally rude.

DottyG

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Re: Okay, this one REALLY bugged me...
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2007, 01:23:03 PM »
but it is often a red flag that the groom is not that into sexual intimacy or has some serious hangups and since it is fairly unusual in our culture today, one has to wonder just what motivates it -- I would hazard that for many of those who haven't had sex together before marriage that it wasn't 'difficult' to abstain


This is where things get rude again.  It's rude to speculate on the reasons that adults make decisions that they have a right to make.  People make decisions for varied reasons, good and bad.  Reading bad decisions into people who don't make the SAME decision is just plain tacky.

It is rude for alcoholics to say that those who have "gone dry" obviously weren't real alcoholics and have never had a craving.

It is rude for people who went to uni and dropped out to denigrate the education of others just because they had a bad experience.

It is rude to assume that people who made the same decision that you did had the same poor outcomes.

Not every man who waits until marraige is disinterested in sex.  I have made the choice to cut back on sugar, but it's not because I'm not interested in it.

I once had someone tell me that she had a terrible divorce with her first husband (who she slept with before the marraige) and I would suffer the same fate if I didn't keep things chaste with my then boyfriend (who is now my husband.)  I thought that was sort of rude.  I think the reverse is equally rude.

Can I say that I, like you, found that statement (that you quoted) quite inappropriate and rude as well?  Speculating on why someone has abstained until marriage as the poster did was not necessary.  And, it went way too far.

A person can abstain for many reasons.  And, many of them as not that they are sexually undesireable (as the poster implies) or because they have some kind of sexual "problem."

I tried to ignore that statement when I read it.  But, when I saw that I wasn't alone in finding it unsettling to read, I felt that I needed to speak up as well.

I do find it strange, also, that people are denigrating someone for talking about their decision to abstain from sex because "one's sexual life should not be anyone else's business but their own", yet I now know more than I needed to know about many of the posters here. ;)  Can't have it both ways.


Twik

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Re: Okay, this one REALLY bugged me...
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2007, 01:41:24 PM »
Oh, come on.  If someone makes the decision to wait until marriage and accomplishes that goal and actually has a sexual attraction to their fiance, I would certainly call the "victory" hard-earned!!!!  Especially these days.  It might not be everyone's decision, but I won't fault the writer for being proud of accomplishing something that yes- IS difficult.  And I certainly won't mock her for it, and I can understand why she didn't want her wedding to look "shotgun" (although there was a very simple way around that- a long enough engagement makes it plenty obvious it's not a shotgun wedding).



The writer does not need to be so "proud" of her virginity that she trumpets it to all and sundry. She should also be aware that wearing white for one's wedding is not a "right" that is "earned" only by and for virgins. The fact that she waited until marriage matters not a whit to me; it's her attitude that is unpleasant, not her virginity.
Why can't she be, when so many people are "proud" of how many sexual partners they have?

The wearing of white is irrelevant - she made a moral decision, and stayed with it, even if it was difficult.
My cousin's memoir of love and loneliness while raising a child with multiple disabilities will be out on Amazon soon! Know the Night, by Maria Mutch, has been called "full of hope, light, and companionship for surviving the small hours of the night."

Twik

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Re: Okay, this one REALLY bugged me...
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2007, 01:44:29 PM »
... but it is often a red flag that the groom is not that into sexual intimacy or has some serious hangups and since it is fairly unusual in our culture today, one has to wonder just what motivates it -- I would hazard that for many of those who haven't had sex together before marriage that it wasn't 'difficult' to abstain

Ah, then, I don't have to worry about dieting - everyone who's thin just isn't interested in food, because if you have a natural urge to eat, you MUST satisfy it. Anything else is unthinkable.


I have been a virgin bride and didn't make that mistake the second time -- while my first husband was enthusiastic but incompetent in bed, I have a couple of high school classmate friends who ended up finding out their virtuous husbands were g*a*y several years into their marriages -- not fun when you have a toddler or two and find out your husband is getting it on with one of your own colleagues
I wonder how they had the toddlers, since g*a*y men apparently can't have sex with women. Otherwise, sleeping with them before marriage wouldn't have told them more than sleeping with them afterwards.

Those stories I've heard about bisexual men must be myths.
My cousin's memoir of love and loneliness while raising a child with multiple disabilities will be out on Amazon soon! Know the Night, by Maria Mutch, has been called "full of hope, light, and companionship for surviving the small hours of the night."

Jaywalker

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Re: Okay, this one REALLY bugged me...
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2007, 01:49:52 PM »
but WE are in fact talking about this issue -- thus those offended by my view should be no more offended than I might be hearing their opposite view -- this is the conversation we are having  and just as some of you are talking about the virtues of virginity, I am suggesting that not everyone thinks it virtuous, some, like me, think it foolish -- you cannot earnestly discuss your own pride in your choice while finding it somehow out of bounds for someone else to suggest why it may not ALWAYS be a cause for pride -- although if you will reread my position, you will note that I acknowledge that the negative interpretation is only one -- and only applies to some --

both are entitled to do whatever floats their boat -- and I agree with those who found the discussion of it by the OP offensive i.e. people should not brag about their virginity or their experience when discussing their wedding

but one ought to be able to express either point of view when that is the topic of discussion

I would never suggest to a virgin bride that she was making a mistake  but I'd also just as soon not hear about the state of her undercarriage -- this is not something polite people should be discussing with anyone other than their intimates


Evil Duckie

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Re: Okay, this one REALLY bugged me...
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2007, 01:51:12 PM »
My comment on the Rapunzel tower was made was about her attitude not one her being a virgin. Her attitude was to me that she was above the rest of us because she the virgin princess.

Whether or not she was a virgin was her choice and her business. I don't want to know. A person's sex life is among the things that are no one business but theirs. People who tend to make a big deal in public about their sex life means that they are either showing off or insecure about it. I know quite a few people who were probably virgins when they married. They didn't make a deal about it they were more about how they lived their life overall.

DottyG

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Re: Okay, this one REALLY bugged me...
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2007, 01:53:00 PM »
but WE are in fact talking about this issue -- thus those offended by my view should be no more offended than I might be hearing their opposite view -- this is the conversation we are having  and just as some of you are talking about the virtues of virginity, I am suggesting that not everyone thinks it virtuous, some, like me, think it foolish -- you cannot earnestly discuss your own pride in your choice while finding it somehow out of bounds for someone else to suggest why it may not ALWAYS be a cause for pride -- although if you will reread my position, you will note that I acknowledge that the negative interpretation is only one -- and only applies to some --

both are entitled to do whatever floats their boat -- and I agree with those who found the discussion of it by the OP offensive i.e. people should not brag about their virginity or their experience when discussing their wedding

but one ought to be able to express either point of view when that is the topic of discussion

I would never suggest to a virgin bride that she was making a mistake  but I'd also just as soon not hear about the state of her undercarriage -- this is not something polite people should be discussing with anyone other than their intimates



HUH?!  Can I, respectfully, ask that you put in some punctuation (and perhaps reread your post as someone who's not quite in your brain to know what you're talking about), because I'm afraid your post doesn't quite make sense.  I'm sure you have a point there, but it's not really all that easy to figure out what it is.


Squeaks

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Re: Okay, this one REALLY bugged me...
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2007, 01:56:33 PM »
I think this is more of a Groomzilla story with a touch of Parentzilla

A bride (and groom) should have *some* say in there own wedding plans.  I find it somewhat parentzillaish to say that they will pay, then be non-receptive to any input from the bride and say “this is how it will be”  I also have to wonder if there suggestion was not a bit passive aggressive – its seems odd to me and almost indication that they do not support the marriage.   At any rate I find it rude to say that you will pay, then be only willing to pay for what you want with no input.

The bride was not happy with the parents plan and neither was the groom.  She was proud to be a virgin bride, that indicates her “reputation” is importunate to her – I can forgive her not wanting a wedding that could be seen as contrary to her “reputation:” I also can forgive them both for wanting a little more out of the ceremony. 

I can also forgive the bride for being upset and talking/crying to her beloved feeling a little hopeless

I can forgive the guy for talking to the parents

The big blunder is how he presented it – i.e. basically blackmail.  It is one thing to offer to pay for it yourself, heck I can even deal with them not wanting the parents to take credit for something they did not pay for. But how he handled is hideous and ugly.  How much inspiration for this tactic came from the bride is anyone’s guess, but in the end he is the one that did it – he is the biggest flameling

The making the guests wait for flowers is also a bad one – but I think the blame for that is fairly well shared.

PurpleyBlue

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Re: Okay, this one REALLY bugged me...
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2007, 03:18:31 PM »
Squeaks,

I agree it would have been nice  of the parents to ask the bride for her input.  However, they had every right to say, "This is what we're willing to pay for."  And if the bride and groom didn't like it they should have paid for everything themselves.

I don't like the implication that they would hold the wedding elsewhere in order to let it be known that the parents were too cheap to give them the wedding they wanted.   They could have just as easily said, "Would you be willing to contribute the same amount of money you originally intended for this wedding towards something else that is more of what we had in mind?"  Instead they strong armed them for more money so they could have the wedding they wanted (which, I agree - they should decide what they want but they should also be prepared to pay for it themselves).  Just not right.  Like you said  - "basically blackmail".  That was what bothered me.

DottyG

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Re: Okay, this one REALLY bugged me...
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2007, 03:24:24 PM »
EMRMiller, I agree with you on what you said.


Squeaks

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Re: Okay, this one REALLY bugged me...
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2007, 03:37:53 PM »
Squeaks,

I agree it would have been nice  of the parents to ask the bride for her input.  However, they had every right to say, "This is what we're willing to pay for."  And if the bride and groom didn't like it they should have paid for everything themselves.

I don't like the implication that they would hold the wedding elsewhere in order to let it be known that the parents were too cheap to give them the wedding they wanted.   They could have just as easily said, "Would you be willing to contribute the same amount of money you originally intended for this wedding towards something else that is more of what we had in mind?"  Instead they strong armed them for more money so they could have the wedding they wanted (which, I agree - they should decide what they want but they should also be prepared to pay for it themselves).  Just not right.  Like you said  - "basically blackmail".  That was what bothered me.

I completely agree - if you don't like what’s offered you should nicely negotiate, or politely decline.  I still think there is more to the story and the parents reaction - its one thing to say you will pay for an afternoon reception with appetizers, and another to say you will only serve Swiss cheese - I think there is a little more going on with the parents – its just comes off as passive aggressive to me, really paying for anything is largely a gifts, but a gift *should* be something that the received will like, not the giver – giving a gift that is what you want, not what the receiver wants is not being generous, its being selfish – that’s why I say they are not innocent


The Groom is by far the worst offender. Again I do not care to speculate on how much blame the bride should share it could be her idea, it could have been only the Grooms her guilt is determined by how much she had to do with the tactic used – we don’t know that so like I said, I don’t know how much blame she gets – I frankly do not care to speculate on this.

Xanthia, Maker of fine Tin-foil hats since 2007

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Re: Okay, this one REALLY bugged me...
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2007, 03:39:20 PM »
OK, so maybe I am reading this wrong.  I want to preface this by stating that I do not care what she did not did not do with hedr husband before they were married, and I support people who have healthy relationships, weather or not they involve intercourse.

I read the part about her virginity as an excuse as to why she expected her parents to throw her some elaborate wedding, but if she had not waited, a JP wedding would have been fine.

Also, on one had I feel that he who pays the piper picks the tunes, but it would have been nice of the parents to say "Here is XXX, this is what we are willing/able to contribute...have fun."  I am assuming there is a lot more to this story than we know.