Author Topic: So are you Saved?  (Read 23258 times)

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wheeitsme

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2008, 01:27:09 PM »
Sorry, OP, I don't see rudeness. He asked if you were Christian and you said yes. He asked if he could pray with you and you said yes. It does sound like your problem is with semantics. Was your mother offended?

Actually per the original post  He asked if he was a Christian and then he asked if he was "saved".  Then refered to him as "born again".  Sometimes the semantics of a faith mark differences in basic tenets and beliefs.  

And the way this was said it tends to translate as "Are you a Christian?"  "Are you really a Christian, or do you just think you are?"  

As I said before:

"I believe that this person was out of line.  Out of line in a secular environment, and out of line as a fellow member of that particular faith.  Having asked for the information once, to continue to belabor the question, and in such a way, was not in line with the particular faith that he claimed to ascribe to."

Mrs. Pilgrim

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2008, 04:40:33 PM »
Just as a note, so you might understand a little better that the fellow meant well:

There is a great deal of misunderstanding in the wider Church right now.  Some folks claim Christianity who don't even fit a dictionary definition thereof--i.e., "I'm a Christian, I just don't believe in all that stuff about miracles, Jesus being God, salvation, and the need for repentance of sins.  I think Jesus was a nice man with some good teachings that I pick and choose from to follow when I feel like it."  You have to admit that that's not exactly Christian, by the dictionary.  (Does my exasperation with some of them show?  Sorry...I just say it like that to demonstrate where the gentleman may have been coming from.)

Such being the case, on a theological matter, you can't just take "I'm a Christian" as a complete answer.  Alas.

It's hard to balance standard etiquette with afterlife-and-death matters.

...Oh, and by the way, those of you who think that "I was born right the first time" is a good response are just as obnoxious as you claim others to be.  You are demeaning the other person's beliefs, and also being self-righteous.  Think about what you mean when you say it, and you'll understand why you are being RUDE in saying it.
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FoxPaws

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2008, 05:25:54 PM »
Such being the case, on a theological matter, you can't just take "I'm a Christian" as a complete answer.  Alas.

It's hard to balance standard etiquette with afterlife-and-death matters.

...Oh, and by the way, those of you who think that "I was born right the first time" is a good response are just as obnoxious as you claim others to be.  You are demeaning the other person's beliefs, and also being self-righteous.  Think about what you mean when you say it, and you'll understand why you are being RUDE in saying it.
Why not?  ??? In the discussion at hand, the purpose of the question was to make sure prayer would be welcome. The particular in and outs of the patient's and their family's faith are none of the hospital employee's business.

And while the glib answers that have been suggested may be less than polite, if one is going to insist on asking nosy, personal questions about others' private relationships (with God or anybody else), they need to accept the risk of getting rude responses in return.
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Lisbeth

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2008, 05:38:45 PM »
I'd respond, "That's something I don't discuss."
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wheeitsme

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2008, 05:49:15 PM »
I understand asking what someone's faith is to see if your prayer would be welcome.  Which is what the person started out doing.  But I still hold that then asking the additional question comes off as improper.  And there are many who would probably be offended by it.  The OP and myself included. 

When you try to practice proper etiquette it involves trying not to offend if you can help it.

rashea

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2008, 05:59:22 PM »

Such being the case, on a theological matter, you can't just take "I'm a Christian" as a complete answer.  Alas.


Then follow it with "which denomination?" or "would you like me to pray with you?" So don't take it as a complete answer, take it as a starting place. However, following it up with "are you Saved?" is about as bad a follow up as he could make.


...Oh, and by the way, those of you who think that "I was born right the first time" is a good response are just as obnoxious as you claim others to be.  You are demeaning the other person's beliefs, and also being self-righteous.  Think about what you mean when you say it, and you'll understand why you are being RUDE in saying it.

First, I would never say that.
Second, I don't see it as the same. Asking someone if they are saved is attempting to push your beliefs on someone else. Answering "I was born right the first time" is a bad way of stating that you don't believe that you need to be "born-again". That doesn't mean that you think it is not necessary for someone else. I don't worship the Christian God, but I understand that others do and I respect that. I don't feel the need to be born-again, so yes, I was born right the first time, because my Gods don't require a re-birth. So for me, it is a different level of rudeness. Again, I would never say it, at least without launching into what could be a long discussion about my beliefs and the way I use the terms.

Still, sometimes it is fun to dream what I would say if I wasn't bound by etiquette and morality, because I get very tired of the harassment.
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Calypso

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2008, 08:00:18 PM »
Just as a note, so you might understand a little better that the fellow meant well:

There is a great deal of misunderstanding in the wider Church right now.  Some folks claim Christianity who don't even fit a dictionary definition thereof--i.e., "I'm a Christian, I just don't believe in all that stuff about miracles, Jesus being God, salvation, and the need for repentance of sins.  I think Jesus was a nice man with some good teachings that I pick and choose from to follow when I feel like it."  You have to admit that that's not exactly Christian, by the dictionary.  (Does my exasperation with some of them show?  Sorry...I just say it like that to demonstrate where the gentleman may have been coming from.)

Such being the case, on a theological matter, you can't just take "I'm a Christian" as a complete answer.  Alas.

It's hard to balance standard etiquette with afterlife-and-death matters.

...Oh, and by the way, those of you who think that "I was born right the first time" is a good response are just as obnoxious as you claim others to be.  You are demeaning the other person's beliefs, and also being self-righteous.  Think about what you mean when you say it, and you'll understand why you are being RUDE in saying it.

I think we really, really want to be careful about getting into this...but, Mrs. Pilgrim, your post is replete with assumptions that don't have a place in polite discourse (which, I believe, admits the possibility of differences of opinion, even over matters of substance).

Citing the dictionary as a good means of defining something is problematic at best. Until quite recently, the dictionary definition for "witch" was far from appropriate, as far as someone of the Wiccan faith was concerned. Some debaters are using "the DICTIONARY DEFINITION of marriage" as their basis for claiming g*a*y* marriage is bad (of course, if these people pick up the "wrong" dictionary, since some of them do not define marriage as "a man and a woman," they back off quite quickly from their "the dictionary is right" stance).

And "being saved" is not (I hope you were not suggesting it is?) a requirement for being a Christian. Nor, while you may have strong beliefs over what is and is not a Christian, is it your place to define for any other person the validity of their faith (you may certainly say, "you are not the same flavor of Christian that I am," but beyond that, we start getting into muddy etiquette waters, and bloody political waters.

And I would very much hope a pastoral representative in a hospital would be prepared to offer solace to anyone of ANY creed...the priests and pastors I grew up with had the education to be able to do that. If one's faith forbids that one prays with someone who isn't, and does not choose to be, of the same faith as oneself, one should I think refrain from working in a mixed setting.

(don't think I've ever used "one" so many times in a sentence before!)  ::)

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2008, 08:34:52 PM »
And while the glib answers that have been suggested may be less than polite, if one is going to insist on asking nosy, personal questions about others' private rel@tionships (with God or anybody else), they need to accept the risk of getting rude responses in return.

I hate to sound like someone's mom, but does someone else being rude justify being rude in response?

This is a new rule to me.
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Mrs. Pilgrim

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2008, 08:47:00 PM »
I think we really, really want to be careful about getting into this...but, Mrs. Pilgrim, your post is replete with assumptions that don't have a place in polite discourse (which, I believe, admits the possibility of differences of opinion, even over matters of substance).

Citing the dictionary as a good means of defining something is problematic at best. Until quite recently, the dictionary definition for "witch" was far from appropriate, as far as someone of the Wiccan faith was concerned. Some debaters are using "the DICTIONARY DEFINITION of marriage" as their basis for claiming g*a*y* marriage is bad (of course, if these people pick up the "wrong" dictionary, since some of them do not define marriage as "a man and a woman," they back off quite quickly from their "the dictionary is right" stance).

And "being saved" is not (I hope you were not suggesting it is?) a requirement for being a Christian. Nor, while you may have strong beliefs over what is and is not a Christian, is it your place to define for any other person the validity of their faith (you may certainly say, "you are not the same flavor of Christian that I am," but beyond that, we start getting into muddy etiquette waters, and bloody political waters.

And I would very much hope a pastoral representative in a hospital would be prepared to offer solace to anyone of ANY creed...the priests and pastors I grew up with had the education to be able to do that. If one's faith forbids that one prays with someone who isn't, and does not choose to be, of the same faith as oneself, one should I think refrain from working in a mixed setting.

(don't think I've ever used "one" so many times in a sentence before!)  ::)

Well, on the question of "being saved" being a requirement for Christianity, we shall politely disagree.  But before you assume that this is what I meant, please reread the attitude/beliefs I described.  (Speaking of assumptions...)  My point was that you cannot simply say "I am a Christian" anymore and leave it at that, because that has been voided of meaning; further inquiry becomes rather important, if that is your occupation.

I do not question the sincerity of someone's faith, but if you engage me in a discussion of the specific points, then I may whip out some reason and Scripture on you.  :P

And if you please, you make a very large assumption yourself when you say that "the priests and pastors I grew up with had the education to be able to do that", because that is, in essence, saying that anyone with convictions otherwise is obviously uneducated.  Perhaps that is not what you meant, but what can one see in your comment but what you write?

I'm going to bow out of this one, but for my final word: don't just assume that someone who takes a professional interest in your soul is doing so because he's self-righteous or calling you evil.  Maybe he really believes what he says, and is doing what he thinks is right out of concern for you.
"Use the proper word, not its second cousin." --Mark Twain, Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses

rashea

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2008, 09:48:18 PM »
I'm going to bow out of this one, but for my final word: don't just assume that someone who takes a professional interest in your soul is doing so because he's self-righteous or calling you evil.  Maybe he really believes what he says, and is doing what he thinks is right out of concern for you.

But I see that as arrogant. Because it assumes that his religion is right, and mine is wrong. I actually don't care that he is doing it out of concern, because trying to insist that I be saved is a huge insult to me.
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Brentwood

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2008, 09:55:36 PM »
Sorry, OP, I don't see rudeness. He asked if you were Christian and you said yes. He asked if he could pray with you and you said yes. It does sound like your problem is with semantics. Was your mother offended?

It would have bothered me too. You see, the branch of Christianity in which I was raised believes that we were "saved" on a Friday afternoon in Jerusalem about 2000 years ago and that no special action need be taken on our parts to assure this salvation. To my way of thinking, asking StressedGroom if he is "saved" right after his acknowledgment that he belongs to a Christian religion is a bit redundant, and if it's not redundant, it suggests that his faith is not sufficient for salvation.

It's more than semantics. It's about specific actions the asker believes need to be taken in order to be "saved."

FoxPaws

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2008, 10:06:54 PM »
I hate to sound like someone's mom, but does someone else being rude justify being rude in response?
No, but it is hypocritical to ask a rude question and then be offended by a rude response.
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kareng57

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2008, 10:15:01 PM »
I held my tongue on this one, but I really wanted to say something.

My mother recently had a stay in the hospital, and on the second day one of the volunteers stopped by with information on the customer advocate; he was wearing an ID that said pastoral care, so I knew what was coming.  He asked and I told him yes we were Christian and our pastor had been by earlier.  He then said “So you are Saved?” (his emphasis not mine)

BG: I don’t want to start a big religious argument, but I’ve never been comfortable with the terms “Saved” and “Born Again”.  I was baptized as an infant, raised in the church, have taught Sunday school and I’m an ordain Elder; I have strong faith, but I don’t think I was ever “Lost” and I have told people in the past that I was born right the first time.

Rather than get into a religious or semantic argument I said yes.  He then asked if he could pray with us, which was fine; but he referred to me as, you guessed it, “Born Again” in the prayer.  I was more annoyed and amused than offended; but again, I really didn’t want to get into a drawn out discussion with him. 

I admit that his assumptions were in part due to my answering yes to what he saw as a simple question and I saw as a complicated one.  Should I have spoken up from the start?  With the wide scope of Christianity, I would think any assumptions on belief would be dangerous.


When I worked in a hospital - albeit nearly 30 years ago - all the patient's records, as well as their wrist-bands, had a space for Religion.  Very often it was None, of course - sometimes Agnostic - sometimes people just specified Protestant which is perfectly fine of course (though of they were committed Lutheran, Anglican etc. you'd think that they would have specified).

I do think that this volunteer was kind of out-of-line, it would have been fine for him to confirm that the pastor had visited and everyone was happy.  But overall it's generally considered appropriate for a hospital chaplain (sometimes it's a clergyperson who has fulltime duties at a nearby church or temple) to give a courtesy-visit to people who have specified a particular faith.

kareng57

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2008, 10:24:50 PM »
I think we really, really want to be careful about getting into this...but, Mrs. Pilgrim, your post is replete with assumptions that don't have a place in polite discourse (which, I believe, admits the possibility of differences of opinion, even over matters of substance).

Citing the dictionary as a good means of defining something is problematic at best. Until quite recently, the dictionary definition for "witch" was far from appropriate, as far as someone of the Wiccan faith was concerned. Some debaters are using "the DICTIONARY DEFINITION of marriage" as their basis for claiming g*a*y* marriage is bad (of course, if these people pick up the "wrong" dictionary, since some of them do not define marriage as "a man and a woman," they back off quite quickly from their "the dictionary is right" stance).

And "being saved" is not (I hope you were not suggesting it is?) a requirement for being a Christian. Nor, while you may have strong beliefs over what is and is not a Christian, is it your place to define for any other person the validity of their faith (you may certainly say, "you are not the same flavor of Christian that I am," but beyond that, we start getting into muddy etiquette waters, and bloody political waters.

And I would very much hope a pastoral representative in a hospital would be prepared to offer solace to anyone of ANY creed...the priests and pastors I grew up with had the education to be able to do that. If one's faith forbids that one prays with someone who isn't, and does not choose to be, of the same faith as oneself, one should I think refrain from working in a mixed setting.

(don't think I've ever used "one" so many times in a sentence before!)  ::)

Well, on the question of "being saved" being a requirement for Christianity, we shall politely disagree.  But before you assume that this is what I meant, please reread the attitude/beliefs I described.  (Speaking of assumptions...)  My point was that you cannot simply say "I am a Christian" anymore and leave it at that, because that has been voided of meaning; further inquiry becomes rather important, if that is your occupation.

I do not question the sincerity of someone's faith, but if you engage me in a discussion of the specific points, then I may whip out some reason and Scripture on you.  :P

And if you please, you make a very large assumption yourself when you say that "the priests and pastors I grew up with had the education to be able to do that", because that is, in essence, saying that anyone with convictions otherwise is obviously uneducated.  Perhaps that is not what you meant, but what can one see in your comment but what you write?

I'm going to bow out of this one, but for my final word: don't just assume that someone who takes a professional interest in your soul is doing so because he's self-righteous or calling you evil.  Maybe he really believes what he says, and is doing what he thinks is right out of concern for you.

So what do you recommend that the hospital chaplain should do when he/she encounters patients who are very religious - but they are Jewish, Sikh, Buddhist, Hindu etc.?  Do you attempt deathbed-conversions?

If I had a very ill relative in hospital and he/she had encountered this, I would be extremely angry.

Calypso

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2008, 11:38:55 PM »
 

And I would very much hope a pastoral representative in a hospital would be prepared to offer solace to anyone of ANY creed...the priests and pastors I grew up with had the education to be able to do that. If one's faith forbids that one prays with someone who isn't, and does not choose to be, of the same faith as oneself, one should I think refrain from working in a mixed setting.

 
[/quote]

 

And if you please, you make a very large assumption yourself when you say that "the priests and pastors I grew up with had the education to be able to do that", because that is, in essence, saying that anyone with convictions otherwise is obviously uneducated.  Perhaps that is not what you meant, but what can one see in your comment but what you write?

 
[/quote]

You are right that my use of the term "educated" was probably ill advised in terms of being inflammatory, and I apoligize for that. I do believe that the kind of classical education that my great-grandfather had to have to become a priest (Greek, Latin, Aramaic--so he could read all the versions of the Bible in the original--and science, and philiosophy, and as much history as was available then, etc) was superior to what is often offered today (call me an old fart, and you'd be correct....I think his generation was hecka more educated by the end of 8th grade than I got in all my years of college.)

But I know what I was implying, and you're right, it wasn't kind. You pointed it out, and responded, quite graciously.

This is a stalemate that has been reached before on this board and, thankfully, although I just violated the rules somewhat, I am glad we don't get to get too much into politics, religion, and so forth. It seems nearly impossible for well meaning people to discuss these things in a reasonable way. (present company excepted)