Author Topic: So are you Saved?  (Read 22961 times)

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StressedGroom

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2008, 05:36:43 PM »
Just as a note, so you might understand a little better that the fellow meant well:

There is a great deal of misunderstanding in the wider Church right now.  Some folks claim Christianity who don't even fit a dictionary definition thereof--i.e., "I'm a Christian, I just don't believe in all that stuff about miracles, Jesus being God, salvation, and the need for repentance of sins.  I think Jesus was a nice man with some good teachings that I pick and choose from to follow when I feel like it."  You have to admit that that's not exactly Christian, by the dictionary.  (Does my exasperation with some of them show?  Sorry...I just say it like that to demonstrate where the gentleman may have been coming from.)

Such being the case, on a theological matter, you can't just take "I'm a Christian" as a complete answer.  Alas.

In my defense -

I had told him that I was a Christian and my pastor had just been by; which in my mind would indicate that I was a member of an organized Christian sect not just someone who considered themselves a Christian without believing all that stuff. 

It doesn't really matter though whether I followed Christian beliefs based on Council of Nicea or something out of the Da Vinci code; it is my relationship with God, if I say I'm a Christian it is between God and myself to decide if that it true. 

In his defense -

I can very easily categorize my faith - Christian, Protestant, Presbyterian, PCUSA; and I can gage where, say a Lutheran and Church of Christ person falls relative to me.  I would think for a nondenominational Christian there is a wide range of beliefs and it isn't as easily categorized.  He may have just been trying to get a better feel for where I stood relative to him; no different from me, in meeting a fellow Presbyterian asking if they were PCUSA, PCE, PCA, or Cumberland.

...Oh, and by the way, those of you who think that "I was born right the first time" is a good response are just as obnoxious as you claim others to be.  You are demeaning the other person's beliefs, and also being self-righteous.  Think about what you mean when you say it, and you'll understand why you are being RUDE in saying it.

In my defense I used this statement in response to "Confrontational Evangalism"

When I was in the Navy I attended school in Orlando, there was a mall and movie theater just down the road from one of the base gates; and it was heavily traveled by young sailors without cars.  It was also heavily traveled by religious groups; be it Krisha's, Christians, whatever.  They would start walking with you at one end of the road evangelizing the whole way; some were friendly, "come check out out youth center", some were highly aggressive.  This was one of the latter, from the "my way or the highway to hell" branch of Christianity.  It didn't matter what my faith was, what I believed; if I hadn't been baptised in their church I was going to Hell, and they didn't hesitate to tell me.  People like that remind me of my favorite quote:
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."   --  Mahatma Gandhi

Was I rude, yes; but in my defense I was 19 and had someone telling me what I believed was wrong, without asking what I believed.  This was also way before the internet, let alone e-hell.

gjcva1

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2008, 10:24:51 PM »
My point was that you cannot simply say "I am a Christian" anymore and leave it at that, because that has been voided of meaning; further inquiry becomes rather important, if that is your occupation.

too bad you have bowed out of the forum, because i really would like an answer to the sentence that you posted above. Stressed Groom has stated that his pastor had recently left.  why do you think it's okay for a volunteer in the hospital to question Stressed Groom's bona fides as to his faith, when he was concerned with his mother's health and that was his major focus, not proving his status as a Christian?   should Stressed Groom be more concerned about proving his Chrisitian faith before some random hospital volunteer would pray for his mother? 

TootsNYC

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2008, 01:02:00 AM »
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He asked if he was a Christian and then he asked if he was "saved".  Then refered to him as "born again".  Sometimes the semantics of a faith mark differences in basic tenets and beliefs. 

And the way this was said it tends to translate as "Are you a Christian?"  "Are you really a Christian, or do you just think you are?"

Speaking as a Christian (A Lutheran Christian--we're a lot like Catholics in our formal rites), I would say, ALL Christians are saved, their faith is accounted to them as righteousness. All baptized Christians were born again, IN their baptism.

So the answer to the follow-up question "but are you *saved*?" is  "Yes, I told you I was a Christian." But of course if you show any of the natural impatience that you're feeling, then he'll start to explain the difference, etc., and what you really want is for him to go away.

And the question "are you saved" as a follow-up to "are you a Christian" is theologically VERY unsound. Probably also rude, but only can be seen as rude if you understand the theology.

As the kind of Lutheran I am, I can (if I want to) fall back on the idea that we don't enter lightly into prayer w/ other Christians whose specific beliefs we don't know much about.We are our own church for a very specific reason, and we're cautious about entering too deeply into fellowship w/ people whose theology we aren't sure of. So I could, if I were so inclined, say, "well, are you Lutheran? Oh, you're not? Well, I'd really be more comfortable praying only with a Lutheran. Thanks anyway, though. Goodbye."

I still remember the school assembly in which a teacher who was also a minister of some other Protestant sect led us in a prayer to mark the death of a fellow student over the summer. (Not kosher at a public school, but I thought, well, *I* don't mind, I know he's a Christian, and so am I). In the course of the prayer, he said, "If there is a heaven...." I'd been praying along with him, mentally echoing his words, right up to--and through, honestly--those words. A split second later I was furious and refused to participate. It was years ago, I still feel it. And I am now sort of cautious about praying with other Christians whose beliefs I don't know much about.



Hawkwatcher

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2008, 12:49:58 PM »
TootsNYC, your teacher was strange.  If you going to do something that is probably going to get you fired, why not go all the way?


As for the original post, I hope that Stressed Groom's mother is out of the hospital and has made a full recovery.  However, if this happens again, to Stressed Groom or anyone else, simply tell the offending person that you would like some private family time.  You should also make sure to get the person's name and tell the hospital that you do not want that person visiting your relative. You can tell hospital staff that you are concerned that this person will stress out your family member. The hospital should comply because the hospital does not want to get sued.

Twik

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2008, 02:41:00 PM »
Just as a note, so you might understand a little better that the fellow meant well:

There is a great deal of misunderstanding in the wider Church right now.  Some folks claim Christianity who don't even fit a dictionary definition thereof--i.e., "I'm a Christian, I just don't believe in all that stuff about miracles, Jesus being God, salvation, and the need for repentance of sins.  I think Jesus was a nice man with some good teachings that I pick and choose from to follow when I feel like it."  You have to admit that that's not exactly Christian, by the dictionary.  (Does my exasperation with some of them show?  Sorry...I just say it like that to demonstrate where the gentleman may have been coming from.)

Such being the case, on a theological matter, you can't just take "I'm a Christian" as a complete answer.  Alas.

It's hard to balance standard etiquette with afterlife-and-death matters.

...Oh, and by the way, those of you who think that "I was born right the first time" is a good response are just as obnoxious as you claim others to be.  You are demeaning the other person's beliefs, and also being self-righteous.  Think about what you mean when you say it, and you'll understand why you are being RUDE in saying it.

Mrs. Pilgrim, what do you think this particular pastor's response would be if the hospital patient had answered "No," to "Are you saved?"
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Aggiesque

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2008, 06:33:01 PM »
I had a friend reply to this once from a random guy at the mall...

she just looked at him, slightly confused, and said "Jesus doesn't lose people."

And we walked off. It was pretty funny, tbh, the guy didn't know how to respond (not did we give him the chance).
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TootsNYC

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2008, 10:36:00 PM »
Quote
TootsNYC, your teacher was strange.  If you going to do something that is probably going to get you fired, why not go all the way?

He wasn't going to get fired; the superintendent introduced him and told us he'd be leading the prayer.

But I was really offended at the idea that a Christian would modify his beliefs to make other people happy. God is absolute. Maybe other people don't believe in Him, or don't believe the same things ABOUT him, fine. But a Christian shouldn't be trying to please those people.

Quote
"Jesus doesn't lose people."

I love that!!



FunkyMunky

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2008, 12:56:16 AM »
"No, but I am on special this week."


To paraphrase my badge-o'-the-day

menana

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2008, 07:47:00 AM »
The minster mentioned in the OP's post should have stopped at "Are you a Christian?".  Adding the question "Are you saved or born again?" is leading and intended to further the discussion. The OP responded in a way to curtail any further probing into a personal matter.

If the minister was asking about religious preference in order to better counsel the family that would be a different matter. Since the minister asked the SAVED question, I think he he might be from a Protestant church that believes and practices the fundamentals of the Bible.

Just as a note, so you might understand a little better that the fellow meant well:

There is a great deal of misunderstanding in the wider Church right now.  Some folks claim Christianity who don't even fit a dictionary definition thereof--Such being the case, on a theological matter, you can't just take "I'm a Christian" as a complete answer.  Alas.

If a minister takes the above stance and assumes that all are feigning Christianity, he will more than likely lose any credibility with the masses.

As the OP pointed out: Once he informed the hospital minister that his own pastor had come by, there should not have been anymore discussion concerning the OP's faith and practices.


Just Lori

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2008, 08:29:08 AM »
I don't think there's any malicious intent here.  Certainly, there are Christian faiths that believe people must identify themselves as "born again" to be true Christians.  The OP did, in fact, identify himself as "saved," which does have a "born again" connotation for some people.

OP, I have been in your shoes, and I don't know the answer.  My response is usually to get my dander up because I feel that my initial answer was not respected, and that never ends well. 

I really think you handled it as well as you could have.  Perhaps if you had responded to "Are you saved?" with a comment like "I believe that's between God and me" that might have tipped him off to the fact that you don't necessarily share all his beliefs. Then again, it might have started a conversation you didn't need to have at your mother's bedside.   I guess I would have taken the prayer in the spirit it was offered.  Like I said, I don't think he was malicious.  He sounds like he genuinely believed you had a common belief.

Waltraud

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2008, 03:02:53 PM »
Oh dear, this is complicated...

Just out of curiosity, though: I'm Roman Catholic. I was baptized once as an infant, went to First communion later and  - by and large - follow the "rules". Am I saved? Born Again? A hopeless cause?

I don't want to mock anyone! But I've come across those expressions quite often in the Internet and in some books, and I never completely understood what that meant.

Someone feels like enlightening me?  ;)

Waltraud

TootsNYC

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2008, 09:19:53 PM »
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I think he he might be from a Protestant church that believes and practices the fundamentals of the Bible.

Well, I don't think you get more Bible-oriented than Missouri Synod Lutheranism. I think we believe and practice the fundamentals of the Bible. I would caution you not to imply that only Protestants w/ beliefs indicated by his comments are following the fundamentals of the Bible.

And we would stop at "are you a Christian?" You believe in Jesus as your Savior? You're saved. You were baptized in His name? You were born again.

We find it appalling that there are Christian organizations that think there's some OTHER weird thing you're supposed to do, beyond actually believing, and being baptized w/ water and the Word. It infuriates us, to have some other Christian organization imply that what we teach is incomplete. (we don't get infuriated w/ those who don't claim to be Christians disagree w/ us, btw)

(see? this is a touchy subject, and he's a moron if he doesn't know, therefore he was rude)


We believe all those who trust in Jesus as their Savior are "saved," and anybody who was baptizes is "born again."

So yes, Waltraud, you were born again. You are saved, if you are still conscious of Jesus Christ, and have His influence in your life, if you acknowledge Him. But you might be in danger of getting "lost," by dint of falling away. Faith needs to be nourished. By Word, fellowship, and deed.

mbt

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2008, 10:02:12 PM »
Okay, it's been a long few days for me so I apologize if this comes across as snarky, I don't mean for it to...but ya'll are making this waaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy more complicated than it needs to be.  

I do not work in a hospital.  But I have an ex who not only participated in ministerial visits (aka clergy care) in numerous hospitals over the years, he was the director of the program in two different states, president of not one but several ecumenical societies that participated and funded these types of programs.  I saw and participated.  

The question at the center of this debate, while not a 'requirement' of a clergy care visit IS an expected question.  Protestant clergy care began in most hospitals as the opposite answer to Catholic last rights and many people DO find solace in a clergy visit, the ex even had some athiests that while they didn't believe in God per se, they were certainly glad to have somebody to talk to.  Being in the hospital is scary enough, surgery or a terminal illness is even scarier.  Nobody disputes that having a minister visit is ultimately a good thing, I'm sure...what at dispute is this question...which almost every minister I've ever met who dealt with clergy care asks.  Just about every minister in clergy care DOES ask this question, no matter how it's worded, and it's basic logic to them, it's an expected question within their realm, to make sure the patient has it all taken care of 'before its too late'.  

Now, to the many open minds of the world, this is probably offensive, they may even think said ministers are trying to proselitzye(sp), which, in essence, they are, and I've heard it come from the mouths of many different ministers - Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Mormon, you name the denomination or group, they've said it in a clergy visit.  Why?  They're trying to make sure that soul is destined for Heaven and it's a requirement of their job.  If somebody thinks that's offensive - don't check the box when you admit. (I mean "you" as in the general public, not you, the OP)

Almost every hospital in this country has a religious preference box on their admission paperwork.  Make sure that a note is placed there that you (general public) want no ministerial visits.  And if you get one, there's no point in being offended by such a question because they're not singling you out, they say it to everybody, just ignore them and say I don't discuss my religious preferences with people I don't really know and move on to something else.  This doesn't have to be as complicated and drawn out as it's developing here. (and if a person does feel like they're being singled out by a clergy care visit then per chance they just might want to take a closer look at what they consider to be their spiritual walk, if they have one, conviction comes in interesting responses.)

kareng57

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2008, 10:37:15 PM »
Okay, it's been a long few days for me so I apologize if this comes across as snarky, I don't mean for it to...but ya'll are making this waaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy more complicated than it needs to be.  

I do not work in a hospital.  But I have an ex who not only participated in ministerial visits (aka clergy care) in numerous hospitals over the years, he was the director of the program in two different states, president of not one but several ecumenical societies that participated and funded these types of programs.  I saw and participated.  

The question at the center of this debate, while not a 'requirement' of a clergy care visit IS an expected question.  Protestant clergy care began in most hospitals as the opposite answer to Catholic last rights and many people DO find solace in a clergy visit, the ex even had some athiests that while they didn't believe in God per se, they were certainly glad to have somebody to talk to.  Being in the hospital is scary enough, surgery or a terminal illness is even scarier.  Nobody disputes that having a minister visit is ultimately a good thing, I'm sure...what at dispute is this question...which almost every minister I've ever met who dealt with clergy care asks.  Just about every minister in clergy care DOES ask this question, no matter how it's worded, and it's basic logic to them, it's an expected question within their realm, to make sure the patient has it all taken care of 'before its too late'.  

Now, to the many open minds of the world, this is probably offensive, they may even think said ministers are trying to proselitzye(sp), which, in essence, they are, and I've heard it come from the mouths of many different ministers - Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Mormon, you name the denomination or group, they've said it in a clergy visit.  Why?  They're trying to make sure that soul is destined for Heaven and it's a requirement of their job.  If somebody thinks that's offensive - don't check the box when you admit. (I mean "you" as in the general public, not you, the OP)

Almost every hospital in this country has a religious preference box on their admission paperwork.  Make sure that a note is placed there that you (general public) want no ministerial visits.  And if you get one, there's no point in being offended by such a question because they're not singling you out, they say it to everybody, just ignore them and say I don't discuss my religious preferences with people I don't really know and move on to something else.  This doesn't have to be as complicated and drawn out as it's developing here. (and if a person does feel like they're being singled out by a clergy care visit then per chance they just might want to take a closer look at what they consider to be their spiritual walk, if they have one, conviction comes in interesting responses.)

No - "have you been saved" is not an expected question.

The patient in-question in the original post had definitely been visited very recently by her own pastor.  The volunteer could have said something like "that's great, is there anything else we can do for you?"  Saying to her "but have you been saved" was very, very inappropriate.

If you can't understand the difference  - not much more that I can say.

Hanna

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2008, 10:45:31 PM »
mbt, that doesn't make sense in this case.  He wasn't asking the patient, he was asking her son.  I personally don't care for the question. 

I would never mind having someone to talk to or even talking about spirituality.  But I would be offended by the question itself.  It is just much too invasive, and if one doesn't share the beliefs of the person asking, then it is very tough to answer without making that terribly clear.  I wouldn't even tell a former colleague that I refused to join Mary Kay because I don't like their color offerings.  I sure wouldn't be comfortable telling a minister that I disagree with the way he chooses to practice his faith.