Author Topic: So are you Saved?  (Read 23112 times)

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FoxPaws

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2008, 10:47:50 PM »
No - "have you been saved" is not an expected question.

The patient in-question in the original post had definitely been visited very recently by her own pastor.  The volunteer could have said something like "that's great, is there anything else we can do for you?"  Saying to her "but have you been saved" was very, very inappropriate.
We have a winner here, folks. This question leaves the door open for those who want further religious counseling without offending those whose spiritual needs have been met.

Compassion and tolerance in the same question - perfect.  :)
I am so a lady. And if you say I'm not, I'll slug you. - Cindy Brady

mbt

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2008, 10:49:06 PM »
I understand the difference Karen, but the reality is far different than what's being discussed here.  Whether the volunteer knew the other pastor had been there is moot - it IS an expected question. Whether people want to believe it or not.  Call your local clergy care office at your local office and ask - it's an expectation of the job.  Could he have worded it a little better than he did?  Of course he could - but don't fault the guy for doing his job.  

And I understand the volunteer was asking the patient's son, it's what they do - I've seen a minister (not the ex but another guy) hit every visitor in the room.  Was it out of line?  Yes, he's just supposed to address the patient, but it's within the perimeters of his job so he did it.  I've explained this before and people just never seem to quite get it (unless they've been in my position before and ya'll know who ya are, we can all relate), the clergy works on a whole different set of rules than everybody else...

Hanna

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2008, 10:51:40 PM »
But MBT, not every member of the clergy talks that way!  Not every demonimation speaks of being saved in that fashion at all. 

mbt

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2008, 10:55:28 PM »
But MBT, not every member of the clergy talks that way!  Not every demonimation speaks of being saved in that fashion at all. 

Actually, yes they do - they just word it differently.  This volunteer chose that wording and while that wording was rude, it still falls within the perimeters of what this person is expected to do.  That's all I'm saying.

Hanna

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2008, 10:59:51 PM »
As I said "Not in that fashion".  The wording is what bothers many of us.
And I'm not giving you a hard time, but I find it very interesting that you know what every pastor of every denomination does.  Must have had some pretty interesting experiences. 

Brentwood

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2008, 11:39:36 PM »


The question at the center of this debate, while not a 'requirement' of a clergy care visit IS an expected question.  Protestant clergy care began in most hospitals as the opposite answer to Catholic last rights and many people DO find solace in a clergy visit, the ex even had some athiests that while they didn't believe in God per se, they were certainly glad to have somebody to talk to.  Being in the hospital is scary enough, surgery or a terminal illness is even scarier.  Nobody disputes that having a minister visit is ultimately a good thing, I'm sure...what at dispute is this question...which almost every minister I've ever met who dealt with clergy care asks.  Just about every minister in clergy care DOES ask this question, no matter how it's worded, and it's basic logic to them, it's an expected question within their realm, to make sure the patient has it all taken care of 'before its too late'. 

Now, to the many open minds of the world, this is probably offensive, they may even think said ministers are trying to proselitzye(sp), which, in essence, they are, and I've heard it come from the mouths of many different ministers - Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Mormon, you name the denomination or group, they've said it in a clergy visit.  Why?  They're trying to make sure that soul is destined for Heaven and it's a requirement of their job.  If somebody thinks that's offensive - don't check the box when you admit. (I mean "you" as in the general public, not you, the OP)



I would not expect to be asked "Are you saved?" and no Lutheran minister would ask this, no matter the synod (a previous poster mentioned LCMS; I am ELCA - these and the other Lutheran synods believe we are saved by grace and justified by faith). I find it hard to imagine a Methodist or Mormon asking this either.

mbt

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2008, 11:45:08 PM »
As I said "Not in that fashion".  The wording is what bothers many of us.
And I'm not giving you a hard time, but I find it very interesting that you know what every pastor of every denomination does.  Must have had some pretty interesting experiences. 

I don't know what "every" pastor does but I've seen the following ministers in action in six different states, a total of 86 hospitals in a 20 year period:  Baptist - CBA, SBC, NBC, KBC, GBC and about eight other conventions, Nazarene, Methodist, Episcopalian, Presbyterian - numerous forms, Lutheran - two synods, Evangelical Free Church, Pentecostal - UPC, Four Square, Church of God (Anderson, Cleveland and several Community Churches), Assemblies, Congregational, Mormon (acutally got to see one FLDS person in action, that was interesting), Jehovah's Witness (by far the most intrusive in their line of questioning, no offense to any JW's we might have  here on the board), Unitarians and that's not counting the countless "free churches" or non-denominational ministers that took part as well and the many, many priests who were also involved. 

mbt

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2008, 11:46:20 PM »


The question at the center of this debate, while not a 'requirement' of a clergy care visit IS an expected question.  Protestant clergy care began in most hospitals as the opposite answer to Catholic last rights and many people DO find solace in a clergy visit, the ex even had some athiests that while they didn't believe in God per se, they were certainly glad to have somebody to talk to.  Being in the hospital is scary enough, surgery or a terminal illness is even scarier.  Nobody disputes that having a minister visit is ultimately a good thing, I'm sure...what at dispute is this question...which almost every minister I've ever met who dealt with clergy care asks.  Just about every minister in clergy care DOES ask this question, no matter how it's worded, and it's basic logic to them, it's an expected question within their realm, to make sure the patient has it all taken care of 'before its too late'. 

Now, to the many open minds of the world, this is probably offensive, they may even think said ministers are trying to proselitzye(sp), which, in essence, they are, and I've heard it come from the mouths of many different ministers - Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Mormon, you name the denomination or group, they've said it in a clergy visit.  Why?  They're trying to make sure that soul is destined for Heaven and it's a requirement of their job.  If somebody thinks that's offensive - don't check the box when you admit. (I mean "you" as in the general public, not you, the OP)



I would not expect to be asked "Are you saved?" and no Lutheran minister would ask this, no matter the synod (a previous poster mentioned LCMS; I am ELCA - these and the other Lutheran synods believe we are saved by grace and justified by faith). I find it hard to imagine a Methodist or Mormon asking this either.

The Mormons I witnessed asked "Do you know where you're going to go if you pass away?"  Personally, to me, I'd find this far more offensive than "are you saved", but that's just me. 

Just Lori

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #53 on: June 03, 2008, 08:46:03 AM »
When my father was in the hospital recovering from a heart attack, he enjoyed chatting with the various Christian counselors who made their rounds.  I spent a lot of time in his room and consequently enjoyed many of the conversations.  We were never asked if we were saved.  However, I do not recall any members from an evangelical faith visiting my father, so maybe that made a difference.

I appreciated that each visitor was able to offer my dad peace of mind and prayer without pointing out the differences between their faiths.

Brentwood

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #54 on: June 03, 2008, 08:56:29 AM »


The Mormons I witnessed asked "Do you know where you're going to go if you pass away?"  Personally, to me, I'd find this far more offensive than "are you saved", but that's just me. 

I'd find the "are you saved" more irritating, but any conversion attempt would have me seeing red.

By and large, Lutherans would not attempt to convert; if someone said, "I am a Christian," that'd be good enough for a Lutheran minister, and I'd expect the same of a Methodist minister.

Brentwood

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #55 on: June 03, 2008, 09:33:38 AM »

Others have commented on how offensive they find the term "saved."  I am not surprised that non-Christians would be offended by the term, but I find it difficult to understand why any professing Christian would be bothered by it, when it originated with Christ Himself and is repeated many times throughout the New Testament. 

I'm offended by the term "saved" when used in a context that implies that my faith of choice isn't good enough for salvation, when it implies that my infant baptism was insufficient, and when it implies that a basic tenet of my faith ("saved by grace") isn't enough. The wording I used above - "I was saved on a Friday afternoon in Jersusalem 2000 years ago," came from a Lutheran pastor relating his experience at having been asked the "are you saved" question while on an airplane.

If I told someone, "I am a Lutheran," and they followed that up with, "But are you saved?",  I would find that offensive.

It isn't the word. It's the context.

Rei-chan

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #56 on: June 03, 2008, 10:04:32 AM »

I must say that ITA with CathyF on this one.  It really does come down to context and tone.


  The other thing is that every denomination's idea of Salvation is different, and yet again you (general) can run into the problem of "My way is better" or somesuch, which can then lead to an attempted conversion session.   I know, for instance, that in my area of the Bible Belt, the "Are you Saved" question is usually asked in a very different tone than polite conversation, no matter where you are at the time.  I don't know if I can convey this right without actual sound, but if you can imagine it said with raised eyebrows, and the implication that you then have to prove it... 

As to the OP, it sounded to me more like the OP's faith/denomination was about to be challenged, which I find unacceptable under any circumstances.  The correct thing, IMO, would have been, upon hearing that the OP's pastor had already been by, to ask if anything else was needed (as an earlier poster already suggested), and if so, then ask the denomination, so that those guidelines could be followed.  If the PC ( and I find that abbreviation to be hilarious in this sense) person could not accomodate that, then he/she should have found someone who could or just let the OP and his Mom be.

Just Lori

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #57 on: June 03, 2008, 10:30:58 AM »
If I told someone, "I am a Lutheran," and they followed that up with, "But are you saved?",  I would find that offensive.

It isn't the word. It's the context.

That, I believe, is what occurred in the OP.  The OP identified himself as Christian and was followed up with "Are you saved?"  That suggests that the visitor did not consider everyone who identifies himself as a Christian to be saved.

We can go in circles arguing over whether certain rites and religions impart eternal salvation, and we'd never come up with an answer we all agree on.  However, I think it is rude to imply that someone's faith isn't good enough, at least not in the context of the OP.

StressedGroom

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #58 on: June 03, 2008, 10:41:15 AM »
I called my sister on this topic, she is an ordained Presbyterian (PCUSA) Minister with 25 years of experience.  We had discussed this when it happened (she had left the hospital ½ hour before the guy showed up), but I wanted to get her feel on the posts.

She told me that she would never say something that challenged or questioned someone’s faith; like are you a Christian or are you saved.  Like a lot of the PPs indicated, that can shut people down fast.  She would instead ask open questions like “Where do you see God in this”

She also raised a good point, Jesus healed anyone, Jew, Gentile, Samaritan, he never asked if they were baptized or a follower of his; Jesus showed them God’s grace and they followed him; not the other way around.

I was actually surprised by the comments regarding needing to understand where people’s beliefs stood relative to theirs before praying for/with them.

I really hate the idea of “What Would Jesus Do (WWJD)”; because it leaves too much up in the air; “I think Jesus would do this”; “well I think he would do that”.  I prefer to look at what Jesus did do; which is welcome everyone, Jews, Pagans; everyone.  I would think someone in a position where they would be dealing with people of different faiths would be able to do a non-denominational prayer for god's healing hand and support.

Since there has been a lot of scripture quoted; I’ll end with this:

"For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there are quarrels among you, my brothers and sisters. What I mean is that each of you says, ‘I belong to Paul’, or ‘I belong to Apollos’, or ‘I belong to Cephas’, or ‘I belong to Christ.’ Has Christ been divided?"

1 Corinthians 1.11-13

Hanna

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Re: So are you Saved?
« Reply #59 on: June 03, 2008, 12:54:52 PM »
Others have commented on how offensive they find the term "saved." 
I am not offended by the term saved, but I am offended by the idea that any man (or woman) that is not my Pastor or Priest has the right to ask me that in the same tone a parent asks a child if they did their homework.  I don't acknowledge a stranger's authority over my state of grace, or their right to even know about it.