Home Schooling and how to say it's not a good idea?

[baconsmom]

 

In our state, homeschooled kids DO have the option of doing those things. But I'd much rather have a child who didn't go to a prom, but did go to Yale, instead of a kid who got to be homecoming queen and can't write a simple essay because no one bothered to teach her. My husband, my friends and I all value our educations far more highly than any opportunities for dancing or cheering we had in public schools, which leads me to believe those opportunities really won't be missed.
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I also value education, and I certainly don't think that going to prom and going to Yale are mutually exclusive.  I know several people who have done both, and I want the same thing for any children I may have.  I really don't get the implication that the public education system produces individuals who are never taught to write a simple essay.  Public school is what one makes of it.  My high school was named in an ACLU lawsuit as an underfunded, "ghetto" school, but the fact is, I got a decent education.  At least my high school education allowed me to graduate from the UC system in 3 years, Phi Beta Kappa, Magna Cum Laude.  This in turn got me into every PhD program I applied to...AND I got to do homecoming floats!  My life didn't revolve around such things, but in my case, the opportunities would have been missed.

I really don't know whether home schooled kids are allowed to participate in these activities in my state.  Perhaps they are, but I have never met any who did.
[/quote]

I can only really base my opinions on what I've seen of my own high school (in a different state), and my brothers' and friends' schools, and my experiences in college in this state. My brothers who went to school here, and most of the people I went to college with, couldn't write an essay. Sure, they got good grades, but the curriculum was weak on basics, and they would not have been prepared for a top-of-the-line school. So from my experiences with this state's public education, homecoming and Yale would seem to be mutually exclusive.

I'm not trying to say that anyone who wouldn't choose to homeschool doesn't care about education, because obviously that's a ridiculous assertion. I was simply trying to correct the view that homeschooled kids aren't ever socialized, or that the typical high school activities are important to all kids. All I remember about high school is a lot of awkwardness and pain - and my high school had no cliques and no real bullies. It wouldn't have fazed me or any of my friends and family to have foregone the typical high school experience so we could learn at our own pace, on our own time, out in the world and at home in books.

Some people do well with homeschooling, and some do not, but to dismiss an educational choice out of hand because of a preconceived idea that is flat-out wrong isn't helpful to the OP or to the discussion in general.

[TZ]

My opinions are based on experience, as well.  I tried to do activities outside of school, but I was cripplingly shy.  I quit dance, softball, etc. because I didn't know anybody and lacked sufficient confidence to make friends.  If public school hadn't forced me to interact with my peers, I would be hopelessly unsocialized today.  I realize this isn't the case with everyone, and I agree with the poster who said that each child has different needs.  But, because of my social experiences, I would be reluctant to consider homeschooling as an option.

I certainly don't think that typical high school activities are important to all kids.  In fact, they are ridiculous to many.  They weren't always important to me, but I came to realize that through experience.  I admit I may have been wrong about homeschooled children participating in school activities.  However, for me, that would not be a practical solution.  I would never have been able to continue such extracurriculars, as being placed in a situation where I didn't know anybody would have caused me major anxiety.  I suppose we can agree that everybody has different needs based on their own personality, learning ability, etc.

[ZipTheWonder]

At least my high school education allowed me to graduate from the UC system in 3 years, Phi Beta Kappa, Magna Cum Laude.  This in turn got me into every PhD program I applied to...AND I got to do homecoming floats!  My life didn't revolve around such things, but in my case, the opportunities would have been missed.

I really don't know whether home schooled kids are allowed to participate in these activities in my state.  Perhaps they are, but I have never met any who did.

To borrow a few phrases....

I really don't get the implication that the home school education system produces individuals who are unable to socialize.  Homeschool is what one makes of it.  My nieces were homeschooled through their entire lower education.  They went on to attend a private university on both athletic (cheer - you don't get much more social than that) and academic scholarships.  They will undoubtedly be accepted to the graduate programs of their choice after graduation.

You are in California, so the answer to your question about whether children are allowed to participate in public school activities is yes.  

[TZ]

[/quote]

To borrow a few phrases....

I really don't get the implication that the home school education system produces individuals who are unable to socialize.  Homeschool is what one makes of it.  My nieces were homeschooled through their entire lower education.  They went on to attend a private university on both athletic (cheer - you don't get much more social than that) and academic scholarships.  They will undoubtedly be accepted to the graduate programs of their choice after graduation.

You are in California, so the answer to your question about whether children are allowed to participate in public school activities is yes.  
[/quote]

I have admitted that I might be (and am) wrong about children being allowed to participate in public school activities.  I just said that none of the homeschool children I have known have done so, nor did I encounter any homeschoolers in high school activities.  That doesn't mean it doesn't happen; it just means I haven't seen it

I'm sure that many homeschooled children are like your nieces, and it's good to know that they are so successful.  I don't believe that home schooling would have been socially beneficial to me, but that doesn't mean it isn't beneficial to others. 

I guess the reason I'm reacting so badly is due to the original post.  I think that different schooling works well for different children, and every child has his or her own needs.    However, it doesn't seem like the OP's sister is really considering what's best for her children, as the oldest is doing very well in public school.  Some public schools may be lacking, as baconsmom has pointed out, but, we don't know if that's true in the OP's school system.  Based on what the OP has said about her sister's past behavior, this might not be the issue; I would hate to see any child removed from a situation in which he or she is thriving and placed with a teacher who is underqualified (whether that teacher is at a public school, private school, or at home).  As far as etiquette goes, I don't think there is any way to confront the OP's sister about this.  Questioning her to subtly inform her of the hard work and strict requirements of home school is as good (and effective) as it's going to get.

[JoyinVirginia]

I know several families who have homeschooled some or all of their kids at various times. Some thru church, some thru library activities. There are quite a few excellent curriculums, some religious based and some not so much, and now more and more things available online. If this sister is "hard to approach" then directly telling her homeschooling is a bad idea may not get the results you want. It may be more productive to say "that's interesting" and then ask relevant questions: What are the requirements in her area, what curriculums has she investigated, does her state require standardized testing of homeschooled kids periodically, what group activities will she be involved in (girl scouts, church group?) those kind of questions.
In my state, Virginia, state law assigns a lot of responsibility for approving homeschooling to the local superintendant of schools. So one locality may require a homeschooling parent to have a college degree, another locality may just want parents to register with the local school superintendant and do no more follow-up. I used to live in a very rural county where the superintendant let any parent who wanted to homeschool have permission, and they had no oversight of curriculums, etc. I knew quite a few families who moved to that county specifically so they could homeschool with no interference from local school board. Some homeschool kids I knew were terrors, some were excellent students with great social skills - just like kids in public schools!
That said, I would never have the patience to teach my kids myself, and I am very happy with public schools in my area.
Joy in Virginia

[LifeOnPluto]

I agree with the other posters who say it would be a bad idea for the OP to bluntly tell her sister that homeschooling would be a bad idea. Maybe a chat about all the hard work and/or tertiary qualifications that are needed to successfully homeschool might be the way to go.

Maybe the OP could suggest that her sister tries public school for 1 year, to see how things go. And her sister can always give her kids extra tuition after school, if she feels that are missing out on anything.

My thoughts about homeschooling in general: I am glad I wasn't homeschooled, nor would I ever homeschool my (future) children. I believe that school offers many experiences that homeschool cannot. I still have many great, and not-so-great memories of my school days. I am able to swap stories of my school days with my peers (whether we went to the same school or not). I feel that to homeschool my children to be to deprive them of a collective experience.

I also feel that homeschooling often doesn't allow for the children to fully develop their independence. Sometime I get the feeling that some (note: SOME) homeschooling parents homeschool their kids because they find it hard to let go; and/or they are fearful of what might happen at a public school.

My city's newspaper once ran a large feature article on homeschooling. There was an accompanying photo of some homeschooling parents and their children. Every single one of those parents was CLUTCHING their children in an over-protective manner (rather than say, standing nicely side by side). One of the mothers contended (as many home-schooling parents do) that their kids got adequate socialisation with other kids, because they were part of a home-schooling group which got together regularly. True, but the article also made it clear that the parents were ALWAYS there at these get-togethers, hanging around their kids.

My point is, spending so much time with one's parents isn't always a good thing, especially for older kids. As much as I loved (and still love) my parents, some of my best memories of growing up were when my parents weren't around. And obviously, school provided ample opportunities for this. In short, I believe that SOMETIMES (depending on the parent) home-schooling doesn't allow as much opportunity for kids to fully develop their own independence, initiative, and problem solving skills.

[T'Mar of Vulcan]

If public school hadn't forced me to interact with my peers, I would be hopelessly unsocialized today. 

I think public school actually made me *less* sociable. I was "weird" even as a child. I liked reading! And Science Fiction! And crafts and crocheting! And I have bad hand-eye coordination, so I was terrible at sports. Therefore, my life in school was a living h3ll. I was teased and mocked and insulted through all five years of high school (we don't have junior high here), and it just made me withdraw more.

I only learnt how to socialize properly once I had started *working* full-time. At 21. To this day I still have some trouble with trusting people and believing anything positive anybody says about me.

Not that I would have wanted to be homeschooled, but I would have benefitted from attending a high school of my choice, instead of being forced to go to a really bad one.

To this day I try to get kids I teach not to go to that school. And, yay - now that a local Afrikaans high school has gone dual-medium - most of them go to that one instead of the terrible high school I attended.

[Ulla dances in a silly way]

I go to a college where a lot of Homeschoolers end up. I also grew up with many homeschooled friends. I've seen it work for some and I've seen it fail.

The assertion that homeschoolers are smarter is not necessarily true. I've actually encountered more homeschoolers who's education has been skewed one way or another and who are severely lacking in some aspects. Writing and math seem to be the most evident deficiencies.

Of course, I also know many who never had that "middle to high school experience" and are now living it out in college complete with fear/fascination of the opposite sex, inability to cope with serious problems, and total social naivete. Maybe homeschoolers socialize, but they socialize with other homeschoolers or, as many I know did, only with church friends. I know several who can't comprehend people who are different than them and theirs. I'll never forget the homeschooled friend who disgustedly asked me how I could be into that "punk gothy thing." I knew one who had never met anyone who wasn't a devout Christian. She thought I was shocking.

Then again, I have several homeschooled friends who did well. Some of them are still very naive, but they find their niche and are open minded. Some of them aren't different at all.

Like every other poster said, it all depends on the kid.

[Slartibartfast]

from a college admissions standpoint, it's MUCH harder to get into the Yales of the world with a homeschool background.  Even though the student may be just as bright and socially well-adjusted as the students at the public school, the admissions office lacks all the normal metrics (normalized class grades, GPA, school clubs and athletic teams, etc) that other students bring.  As a result, they have no way of knowing whether "participated in a homeschool science club" means the students got time with the local particle accelerator, or whether they met as a group and went over science homework, or whether their parents decided that lunchtime on Thursdays is now "Science Club Day" and the students had to discuss chemistry with their younger siblings for ten minutes.  On the other end of the spectrum, admissions officers know that a public- or private-schooled student who says they were on the soccer team was part of a specific activity, that would involve doing specific things, with a specific amount of work put in by the student.

This won't affect the super-bright and motivated homeschooled students - the ones who win olympic titles and international math competitions will get into top-tier schools anyway.  Students from smaller towns where there aren't as many things to be involved in are stuck, though - even if they really really earned those straight A's their mothers gave them, they just don't have as adequate a way to prove they deserve to be at a really good school.  And homeschooled students who do pretty-well-but-not-great on standardized tests tend to be passed over in favor of traditional students with the same scores whose academic achievements can be measured against their peers.

This may or may not be an appropriate thing for the OP to discuss with her SIL, but it is definitely something to consider.  State regulations vary widely, too - Alabama has a "as long as you teach them something" attitude, while Wisconsin has a much more defined system of learning metrics.  (I was not homeschooled growing up, but I knew several who were, for both religious and non-religious reasons.  I have yet to meet a homeschooling mother in Alabama who wasn't extremely strange in some way, though - most are homeschooling for religious reasons, but some are just plain nuts no matter how you slice it.  The kids grow up anyway.)

*This is based on my experience at a top-tier school (not Yale, but consistently one of the top five) and working in that school's admissions office.  Although the school says they don't hold homeschoolers at a disadvantage, most of the admissions officers I talked with felt good-but-not-amazing homeschool students weren't represented in the student body as much as they probably deserved to be, and believed that this comparison issue was the reason.  The situation may be completely different for public, religious, or smaller schools, and for different parts of the country.*

[T'Mar of Vulcan]

I knew one who had never met anyone who wasn't a devout Christian. She thought I was shocking.

This is a teeny bit OT, but are parts of the U.S. really so non-integrated? I mean, children in S.A. who are homeschooled (even in small towns) are going to meet non-Christians and people of other colours and cultures just by walking out the door! In one shopping trip (and I'm talking about a trip to my local supermarket up the road) I will likely come across Muslims (wearing scarves, covering their faces or not), Hindus, black people from about 7 cultures, Coloured people and a large variety of white people (Portuguese, German, Lebanese, English, Afrikaans, etc.)

It's quite scary if someone can go through a huge portion of their life and never meet someone different from them.

[Bethalize]

But I'd much rather have a child who didn't go to a prom, but did go to Yale, instead of a kid who got to be homecoming queen and can't write a simple essay because no one bothered to teach her.

I find this complete split between "home school" and "public school" quite strange. It was very rare to home school when I was at school but quite normal to have extra lessons and supported home working. Young people go to school and go through the school system taking the school exams but have tutoring on the subjects they need provided through their parents.

My husband, my friends and I all value our educations far more highly than any opportunities for dancing or cheering we had in public schools, which leads me to believe those opportunities really won't be missed.

Is it possible that this is because you had all those chances and therefore made a choice? That's a bit different from not having the chance.

[MelJill]

I knew one who had never met anyone who wasn't a devout Christian. She thought I was shocking.

This is a teeny bit OT, but are parts of the U.S. really so non-integrated?

Yes--at least, it certainly was so in the past (I can't speak for now).  I grew up in a different part of the country than where I live now, and I never personally crossed paths with a non-white person until high school, and it wasn't until college that I encountered people who were not Protestant (I didn't become Catholic myself until I was 32).

This isn't true of the area I live in now, though, but I'm not sure if that's something that changed w/ the passage of time or is a difference between living in the suburbs (where I grew up) or a city (where I live now).

[Ehelldame]

from a college admissions standpoint, it's MUCH harder to get into the Yales of the world with a homeschool background.  Even though the student may be just as bright and socially well-adjusted as the students at the public school, the admissions office lacks all the normal metrics (normalized class grades, GPA, school clubs and athletic teams, etc) that other students bring.   On the other end of the spectrum, admissions officers know that a public- or private-schooled student who says they were on the soccer team was part of a specific activity, that would involve doing specific things, with a specific amount of work put in by the student.

Students from smaller towns where there aren't as many things to be involved in are stuck, though - even if they really really earned those straight A's their mothers gave them, they just don't have as adequate a way to prove they deserve to be at a really good school. 

When people say this, I have to wonder where they live and who are the homeschoolers they have met.  I've homeschooled in two states on the East Coast and know hundreds of homeschoolers, both current and graduated.  Many of them graduated a year to 2 years early and went on to get partial or full ride academic scholarships to public and private universities.  I live in a university-rich area of the US and I can't think of a single one, prestigious and otherwise, which our local homeschoolers have not been able to gain admittance and even scholarships.  Outside of the area, homeschoolers I know are attending the Naval Academy, the Air Force Academy, Davidson College, Duke, etc.  I honestly don't know any of my acquaitance that had to attend a community or junior college before being able to transfer to a four year university and those who want to go to college, have not only not had much trouble being admitted to the univeristy of their choice but they also get merit-based scholarships.  Just as in any population, there are those who don't want to go to college and pursue other trades. 

Mom can hand out the A's all she wants but SAT test scores will prove the value of the education as does placement testing.   As for activities, there are homeschool sports leagues who play against each other (and the players do get sports scholarships), there is a National Homeschool Honor Society with local chapters, proms for homeschoolers, etc. 

We've gotten far afield of etiquette in this thread and I believe ZiptheWonder made the best observation that this is a parental decision on how best to raise their children.  Most of us would be rankled by questions posed by family members as to how we choose to rear our kids as it is really no one's business barring any illegal activity.  The prejudice against homeschooling is rather interesting because it makes me wonder what people then think of children living in the Outback of Australia who are educated at home via a satellite or radio correspondence course or children of missionaries who are home educated in remote areas of the world.  The acclaimed Calvert Academy curriculum used by many homeschoolers was originally created decades ago for missionary children.   Tens of thousands of Amish, Old Order Mennonite and Hutterite children are educated only through the eighth grade, often in one room school houses with multiple grades. 

[Lynda_34]

I think the thread remains interesting even though the topic may have strayed.
My children attended school in a New England town, population around 9,000. I believe there is one Puerto Rican family in town. 
My daughter graduated from the high school here, very white bread.
I sent my son to a technical high school about 20 miles away, he has the more integrated education as far as different races and cultures.
(yes both schools had drug issues and the usual teen angst)
So yes, some schools are very culturally isolated when it comes to getting to know other types of people.

[RuneGuardian]

I am against home-schooling for the lack of socialization and if the parents doing the teaching are morons. I feel that kids need to be in a classroom to teach them social skills and, as they advance into higher grades, learn to deal with any social problems that may arise. Parents who choose to home-school because they don't like one of the teachers or their child is getting picked on are making a bad decision - if they shield their kids from social lives, the kids won't know how to interact with anyone when they get older. Is it really worth giving your kids the education you want them to get and potentially jeopardize their abilities to socialize, communicate, and make friends? Social skills are some of the most important skills a person can learn - it's wonderful if your child is a math whiz, but how well will he or she do in life if they don't know how to talk to an employer? I'm not saying it's better that students know how to talk than how to think, but social skills are things they'll pick up while they get their education.

Also, there are probably some colleges that may look at the applications with "home-schooled" listed and think "home-schooled=too dumb for regular school".