Author Topic: Special Snowflake Stories  (Read 5419881 times)

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perpetua

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #27975 on: July 18, 2014, 06:41:43 AM »
Sounds like some SS's in my area. A group was recently complaining on a FB forum about a guy who was shooting dogs.  Some of these SS had had their dogs shot at and others were outraged as well.

Turns out these people were just letting their dogs run and they all tended to run on this guy's property.  This property was multiple acres of wild land and  was used as a breeding and nesting area for cranes.  He had signs everywhere posting this, it was a protected breeding area.  The dogs were killing hatchlings so
after repeated failed attempts to get the owners to keep their dogs home he just started shooting.

The owners were outraged.  We live in Alaska, dogs should be allowed to roam free!!

No. We do have leash laws here, keep your darn dogs home.

And that makes shooting animals OK?!

Obviously the owners are in the wrong to let them run all over the place, but good *grief*, that's no excuse for shooting them.

Speaking as someone with farmers for relatives... yes, yes it is. You put up fences, you warn people, and then if someone keeps letting their dog/s run loose and they come on your land and repeatedly kill your livestock (or, in this case, the protected species you are a guardian for), you deal with them.

We will have to agree to differ then, Mel. I will never believe this is OK; it's no different to what the dogs are doing that he's complaining about (killing things; except the dogs are doing it through nature, he's not, he's just shooting animals). You don't just shoot things willy-nilly because they're costing you money or whatever; being a farmer is no excuse - that just makes it financial, which is even worse in my view. Shooting animals is a terrible thing to do and I struggle to understand why anyone thinks it's OK. Where does it end? I'll shoot the cat who comes into my garden because I don't like cats? No, just no.

*disclaimer: I come from a culture where guns are not allowed and shooting in general is something people tend to find absolutely horrifying, which may be colouring my view, but I am literally absolutely horrified at the post that started this conversation.

What else would you have the farmer do? Assuming neither signs, warnings or fences work.

*I'm from a similar culture to yours, but I'm assuming he took to shooting as a last resort, rather than his first choice.

All it says in that post is that he posted signs. Dogs can't read. He needs to put up fences, not shoot the dogs. If he went from putting up signs to shooting, then he's *very* wrong.

hermanne

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #27976 on: July 18, 2014, 06:54:38 AM »
Careful, please. I don't want to see this tread locked.
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Margo

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #27977 on: July 18, 2014, 07:56:03 AM »
Then put up fences or barriers to predators getting in. If you (general) own animals and predators are getting to them, the problem is insufficient defences. You frequently hear over here of people who own chickens getting their chickens killed by foxes. So they build a better chicken coop so that the foxes can't get in. Why wasn't the original guy doing this before shooting dogs? There is no mention in that original post of a fence around the land, breeding area, whatever you want to call it. If dogs are getting in, the landowner has not sufficiently protected his property and that's down to him.

I am backing away from this, because I can not believe that there are people who think shooting animals for a bottom line is OK.

I'm from the same country as you (I believe) and I live in a farming community. It isn't really possible to fence off land in a way which prevents predators getting in. Chickens in a hen house are one thing (although making a truly fox-proof run is extraordinarily difficult, and nigh-on impossible if you *also* want to give the chickens a mobile run so they can access fresh areas of ground, plants etc) Fencing fields and woodland so people cannot get in with their dogs is not practical - even if it is affordable or appropriate to use fine mesh fence to keep dogs out (which may also causeproblems for wildlife, quite apart from the cost) there are still going to be people who will lift their dog over the fence or the gate.

I completely agree that someone who allows their dog to run  free on land which is private and which his well signed is a special snowflake. It's horrible that that may end in the dog getting shot but that doesn't make the owner of the dog  any less of a snowflake.

Mel the Redcap

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #27978 on: July 18, 2014, 08:21:05 AM »
Then put up fences or barriers to predators getting in. If you (general) own animals and predators are getting to them, the problem is insufficient defences. You frequently hear over here of people who own chickens getting their chickens killed by foxes. So they build a better chicken coop so that the foxes can't get in. Why wasn't the original guy doing this before shooting dogs? There is no mention in that original post of a fence around the land, breeding area, whatever you want to call it. If dogs are getting in, the landowner has not sufficiently protected his property and that's down to him.

I am backing away from this, because I can not believe that there are people who think shooting animals for a bottom line is OK.

I'm from the same country as you (I believe) and I live in a farming community. It isn't really possible to fence off land in a way which prevents predators getting in. Chickens in a hen house are one thing (although making a truly fox-proof run is extraordinarily difficult, and nigh-on impossible if you *also* want to give the chickens a mobile run so they can access fresh areas of ground, plants etc) Fencing fields and woodland so people cannot get in with their dogs is not practical - even if it is affordable or appropriate to use fine mesh fence to keep dogs out (which may also causeproblems for wildlife, quite apart from the cost) there are still going to be people who will lift their dog over the fence or the gate.

I completely agree that someone who allows their dog to run  free on land which is private and which his well signed is a special snowflake. It's horrible that that may end in the dog getting shot but that doesn't make the owner of the dog  any less of a snowflake.

I'm originally from New Zealand, and guns are far from the 'normal' way of dealing with anything there. For my uncle, at least, shooting roaming dogs on his land had nothing to do with them costing him money, and everything to do with the horrible injuries his sheep and lambs suffered. Fences that will keep sheep and cattle contained will do practically nothing to keep out most dogs; even tiny, 'harmless' dogs can run sheep to death and mutilate newborn lambs.

This is probably going to be my last reply on the subject, too, because it's a very emotive topic and when I try to explain further I find myself getting... er... strident. I've seen what happens when somebody's beloved pet dog (who's "just a big softy, really") romps onto a working farm and gets excited when all the fluffy white things run away, and it's ugly.
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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #27979 on: July 18, 2014, 08:32:20 AM »
Then put up fences or barriers to predators getting in. If you (general) own animals and predators are getting to them, the problem is insufficient defences. You frequently hear over here of people who own chickens getting their chickens killed by foxes. So they build a better chicken coop so that the foxes can't get in. Why wasn't the original guy doing this before shooting dogs? There is no mention in that original post of a fence around the land, breeding area, whatever you want to call it. If dogs are getting in, the landowner has not sufficiently protected his property and that's down to him.

I am backing away from this, because I can not believe that there are people who think shooting animals for a bottom line is OK.

I'm from the same country as you (I believe) and I live in a farming community. It isn't really possible to fence off land in a way which prevents predators getting in. Chickens in a hen house are one thing (although making a truly fox-proof run is extraordinarily difficult, and nigh-on impossible if you *also* want to give the chickens a mobile run so they can access fresh areas of ground, plants etc) Fencing fields and woodland so people cannot get in with their dogs is not practical - even if it is affordable or appropriate to use fine mesh fence to keep dogs out (which may also causeproblems for wildlife, quite apart from the cost) there are still going to be people who will lift their dog over the fence or the gate.

I completely agree that someone who allows their dog to run  free on land which is private and which his well signed is a special snowflake. It's horrible that that may end in the dog getting shot but that doesn't make the owner of the dog  any less of a snowflake.

I think post that started this the cranes were wild cranes so left to their own devices as far as wild predators go. I don't think there are any domestic cranes. If I'm understanding the post correctly the person owned land which a wetland that was a protected breeding ground , protected for the wildlife to not be harassed by people and their pets and protected from the land being altered by people.

LadyClaire

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #27980 on: July 18, 2014, 08:39:25 AM »
All it says in that post is that he posted signs. Dogs can't read. He needs to put up fences, not shoot the dogs. If he went from putting up signs to shooting, then he's *very* wrong.

Dogs can dig under fences. I've even seen truly determined dogs *climb* fences, or chew through wooden fence panels. I've also seen them dig under gates, so even if you have a fence that has been sunk into the ground deep enough to prevent digging under the actual fence, the gate can still be a weak point if you have a dog that really wants to get at something.

LadyClaire

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #27981 on: July 18, 2014, 08:42:16 AM »
My university campus has a lot of roses growing on the property. Nothing really special, just the standard bright pink knock-out roses. One of the maintenance men was here over the weekend working on something, and found a woman cutting all the roses off the bushes. She already had two large baskets filled with pilfered roses in the back seat of her car when he caught her. I wondered why the rose bushes looked a little bare..she managed to strip about 5 bushes before she got caught.

StarDrifter

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #27982 on: July 18, 2014, 08:51:49 AM »
Oh goodness - that sounds like the SS' who knocked on my grandmothers' door while I was visiting earlier this week and asked when she thought her daffodils were going to be blooming.

Thankfully Nana has a spine of steel and asked why they cared - they were her daffodils. The people at her door merrily explained that they'd been picking them for the last couple of years to decorate the stand they set up in the mall to collect donations for the cancer council.

Nana told them that there would be no daffodils out front of her house this year, because so many people had been stealing them she had not planted any.

When they started to complain, she reached for the phone and asked if they really wanted to go down that road - as she had several complaints on file with the local police about people trespassing on her property and stealing from her garden, and she'd happily take their names and report them as the admitted thieves!

She was so upset, later on, though. Because if they'd taken the time to knock when they first STOLE the daffodils, she'd have donated the nicest ones, because it was and is for a good cause. As it is, she's contacted the people in charge of the fundraising to tell them about what happened and she really hopes that the people who were stealing the flowers face some consequences.
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Tsaiko

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #27983 on: July 18, 2014, 08:53:39 AM »
My university campus has a lot of roses growing on the property. Nothing really special, just the standard bright pink knock-out roses. One of the maintenance men was here over the weekend working on something, and found a woman cutting all the roses off the bushes. She already had two large baskets filled with pilfered roses in the back seat of her car when he caught her. I wondered why the rose bushes looked a little bare..she managed to strip about 5 bushes before she got caught.

We had a similar issue in the DC area only it was the peony and hydrangea bushes in people's yards that were getting stripped. There was a man going around collecting the flowers and then selling them to florists. The florist thought he was a legit grower of the flowers. It was bad enough that there were several news articles and people were warning other people to be on the look for him. Don't know if he was ever caught.

I bet the lady was going to either sell the flower or  use the flowers for decorations without having to pay for them.

Cherry91

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #27984 on: July 18, 2014, 09:18:37 AM »
Oh goodness - that sounds like the SS' who knocked on my grandmothers' door while I was visiting earlier this week and asked when she thought her daffodils were going to be blooming.

Thankfully Nana has a spine of steel and asked why they cared - they were her daffodils. The people at her door merrily explained that they'd been picking them for the last couple of years to decorate the stand they set up in the mall to collect donations for the cancer council.

Nana told them that there would be no daffodils out front of her house this year, because so many people had been stealing them she had not planted any.

When they started to complain, she reached for the phone and asked if they really wanted to go down that road - as she had several complaints on file with the local police about people trespassing on her property and stealing from her garden, and she'd happily take their names and report them as the admitted thieves!

She was so upset, later on, though. Because if they'd taken the time to knock when they first STOLE the daffodils, she'd have donated the nicest ones, because it was and is for a good cause. As it is, she's contacted the people in charge of the fundraising to tell them about what happened and she really hopes that the people who were stealing the flowers face some consequences.

 ??? A charity thought that this was okay behaviour? (where's a the jaw dropper emoticon when you need it?)

And the gall to cheerfully admit they'd been stealing them for years?! I need to sit down...

Twik

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #27985 on: July 18, 2014, 09:41:37 AM »


Quote
We will have to agree to differ then, Mel. I will never believe this is OK; it's no different to what the dogs are doing that he's complaining about (killing things; except the dogs are doing it through nature, he's not, he's just shooting animals). You don't just shoot things willy-nilly because they're costing you money or whatever; being a farmer is no excuse - that just makes it financial, which is even worse in my view. Shooting animals is a terrible thing to do and I struggle to understand why anyone thinks it's OK. Where does it end? I'll shoot the cat who comes into my garden because I don't like cats? No, just no.

*disclaimer: I come from a culture where guns are not allowed and shooting in general is something people tend to find absolutely horrifying, which may be colouring my view, but I am literally absolutely horrified at the post that started this conversation.

What else would you have the farmer do? Assuming neither signs, warnings or fences work.

*I'm from a similar culture to yours, but I'm assuming he took to shooting as a last resort, rather than his first choice.

I can't see any other option (and I note that dogs may have been wounded, but not killed).

They were attacking and killing wild creatures. Now, Sandhill cranes in Alaska do not seem to be endangered, but still one would prefer that their nesting areas be unmolested. If a dog kills, say, ten nestlings over the nesting period, and there are 12 dogs in a pack, that's a lot of mortality. And that's just the immediate death toll. Predators running rampant through a nesting area probably cause a lot of eggs or nestlings to be abandoned. On a strictly life per life basis, I think I can see the point of shooting at (probably with the intent to scare rather than kill) dogs that had no business being loose in the first place. The cranes have as much right to life as the dogs.

The idea of "cooping" wild cranes to protect them is impractical, to say the least.
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2littlemonkeys

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #27986 on: July 18, 2014, 10:00:15 AM »
Oh goodness - that sounds like the SS' who knocked on my grandmothers' door while I was visiting earlier this week and asked when she thought her daffodils were going to be blooming.

Thankfully Nana has a spine of steel and asked why they cared - they were her daffodils. The people at her door merrily explained that they'd been picking them for the last couple of years to decorate the stand they set up in the mall to collect donations for the cancer council.

Nana told them that there would be no daffodils out front of her house this year, because so many people had been stealing them she had not planted any.

When they started to complain, she reached for the phone and asked if they really wanted to go down that road - as she had several complaints on file with the local police about people trespassing on her property and stealing from her garden, and she'd happily take their names and report them as the admitted thieves!

She was so upset, later on, though. Because if they'd taken the time to knock when they first STOLE the daffodils, she'd have donated the nicest ones, because it was and is for a good cause. As it is, she's contacted the people in charge of the fundraising to tell them about what happened and she really hopes that the people who were stealing the flowers face some consequences.

 ??? A charity thought that this was okay behaviour? (where's a the jaw dropper emoticon when you need it?)

And the gall to cheerfully admit they'd been stealing them for years?! I need to sit down...

And the further gall to complain when the flowers were no longer available to steal!   :o

I just...wow.

Idlewildstudios

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #27987 on: July 18, 2014, 11:31:51 AM »


Quote
We will have to agree to differ then, Mel. I will never believe this is OK; it's no different to what the dogs are doing that he's complaining about (killing things; except the dogs are doing it through nature, he's not, he's just shooting animals). You don't just shoot things willy-nilly because they're costing you money or whatever; being a farmer is no excuse - that just makes it financial, which is even worse in my view. Shooting animals is a terrible thing to do and I struggle to understand why anyone thinks it's OK. Where does it end? I'll shoot the cat who comes into my garden because I don't like cats? No, just no.

*disclaimer: I come from a culture where guns are not allowed and shooting in general is something people tend to find absolutely horrifying, which may be colouring my view, but I am literally absolutely horrified at the post that started this conversation.

What else would you have the farmer do? Assuming neither signs, warnings or fences work.

*I'm from a similar culture to yours, but I'm assuming he took to shooting as a last resort, rather than his first choice.

I can't see any other option (and I note that dogs may have been wounded, but not killed).

They were attacking and killing wild creatures. Now, Sandhill cranes in Alaska do not seem to be endangered, but still one would prefer that their nesting areas be unmolested. If a dog kills, say, ten nestlings over the nesting period, and there are 12 dogs in a pack, that's a lot of mortality. And that's just the immediate death toll. Predators running rampant through a nesting area probably cause a lot of eggs or nestlings to be abandoned. On a strictly life per life basis, I think I can see the point of shooting at (probably with the intent to scare rather than kill) dogs that had no business being loose in the first place. The cranes have as much right to life as the dogs.

The idea of "cooping" wild cranes to protect them is impractical, to say the least.

I am the OP of the dog/crane post.  Didn't mean to upset people :)

Land owner does not shoot to kill.  He tries to avoid that.  There is no way to securely contain multiple acres of Alaska wild land against dogs.  The neighborhood dogs were gathering in packs and destroying nests and nestling and some tried to take down adult cranes.  It is absolutely illegal for humans or domestic animals to harrass wildlife like that here.

He attempted to talk with the dog owners but they kept insisting that their dogs were gentle and since it's Alaska (??) they should be allowed to run free.  He explained it was his property and it was a protected site.  Owners insisted their dogs would never harm anything.

If he can he'll pick the dogs up and turn them into the pound so the owners have to pay to get them out.  SS dog owners just aren't getting the whole "this is not your property" idea.  It kind of like getting upset your pet goat isn't welcome at the botanical gardens.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 11:34:42 AM by Idlewildstudios »

VorFemme

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #27988 on: July 18, 2014, 11:58:08 AM »
If anyone remembers the James Herriot books about a British veterinarian's practice over a decade before WWII and a couple of decades after the war. 

He ran into the same issue.  People down from the "city" letting their dogs run loose who were "playing" by chasing the local sheep and sometimes "tagging" one of them.

The chasing meant that the animals might die of fear, run themselves into exhaustion & illness, and the "tagging" with the dogs' teeth wounded them in various ways - which might range from mild injury that might or might not get infected to ripping out the throat - depended on the size of the dog and the size of the particular sheep.

The city folk were quite upset when their dogs started getting shot at - whether rock salt in a shotgun (painful enough to teach a lesson but not usually fatal) to killed (the ones that kept "playing" after the warning shots).

The local farmers were quite upset that the lives and health of their animals and their livelihood were being ignored by the city folk who were not teaching their animals the "proper etiquette" for being around non-humans other than other dogs or cats. 

If someone else's dog had come into their home & started chasing & injuring a pet rabbit or gerbil in the guise of "play", they would have been quite upset - but their dog doing the same thing to a sheep, goat, cow, pig, or the like was considered rude on the farmer's part for not wanting their animals to be treated as toys.

We had a dog who had never seen a sheep in his life - but came from a long line of Tibetan sheep dogs.  He "knew" exactly what to do - make sure the sheep moved from water, to grass, to resting in the heat of the day...he just had to keep that poor sheep moving because there was only ONE of them.

I'm pretty sure that the sheep was bewildered, having never been around anything but humans and its own sibling earlier (we didn't end up getting both of them, long story) - so this long haired four legs that kept making it move around confused it.  It wasn't a sheep but it clearly wasn't a human and it thought that it was "the boss"...but that  sheep was never bothered by any of the local wild animals for the rest of its life - not cats, dogs, squirrels, or coyotes.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 06:17:24 PM by VorFemme »
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o_gal

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #27989 on: July 18, 2014, 02:16:02 PM »
Could we please end the discussion of shooting or not shooting animals? This thread is just too awesome to get locked.