Author Topic: Special Snowflake Stories  (Read 5513283 times)

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Virg

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #24045 on: October 25, 2013, 10:29:07 AM »
Hmmmmm wrote:

"I'm fine with kid's having a good time but getting into the other girls personal space wasn't fair to her."

I agree that it's not fair, but I have to agree with Twik on this one.  Putting a group of three-year-olds on a stage and expecting anything more than the tiniest bit of order is a plan for failure, and if your child is going to participate in such an event you really have to expect that it's not going to go according to plan.  If every child who distracted another child during such a performance was to be moved to another class or method, your recital will quickly degenerate to a series of individual performances.  I definitely agree that her instructor should ask her to be more careful and not try to distract the other participants, but I do find myself wondering why this particular video made it into the "Special Snowflakes" thread when the girl was just acting like a typical three-year-old child.

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Twik

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #24046 on: October 25, 2013, 10:36:36 AM »
And if a girl had started waving her hands in front of my DD's face while she was trying to do a perfect job, I'm concerned my DD may have punched her. It would have been horribly distracting to her.  I'm fine with kid's having a good time but getting into the other girls personal space wasn't fair to her.

I'd think punching another child for getting in her way is *much* more "unfair" than invading someone's space. But they are three year olds. And three year olds are barely old enough to not be trying to eat their tap shoes, rather than perform in them. Expecting them to behave like polite adults is a set-up for major disappointment.
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Hmmmmm

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #24047 on: October 25, 2013, 11:14:35 AM »
And if a girl had started waving her hands in front of my DD's face while she was trying to do a perfect job, I'm concerned my DD may have punched her. It would have been horribly distracting to her.  I'm fine with kid's having a good time but getting into the other girls personal space wasn't fair to her.

I'd think punching another child for getting in her way is *much* more "unfair" than invading someone's space. But they are three year olds. And three year olds are barely old enough to not be trying to eat their tap shoes, rather than perform in them. Expecting them to behave like polite adults is a set-up for major disappointment.

OK, punch was probably the wrong word, but I do think she would have shoved her back. At 3, DD did not like hand waving in her face.

But as her parent's we saw this reaction often. DD would be concentrating on doing something, another todler would try to get her attention by waving hands in her face, tugging on her or even screaming in her face. When DD would react by pushing them away or another negative action, the encroaching child's parent's reaction was "oh, my child was just trying to get her to have some fun she wasn't trying to bother her." It was hard for them to understand their child's idea of "goofy" fun was not my serious child's idea of fun at all.  But society loves the clown so DD was perceived as the mean one.

Twik

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #24048 on: October 25, 2013, 11:23:00 AM »
She's not "mean," but the other children are not being rude. They're at a stage where they're just learning the difference between "Me" and "Rest of the World". So, thinking "I wouldn't like it if someone did this to me, so I shouldn't do it to them," is often a very advanced concept to compete with the thought "I WANNA DO THIS!"
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shhh its me

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #24049 on: October 25, 2013, 11:41:16 AM »
  I don't think either is "wrong" their just too young to be in the wrong.  Getting in someone face is rude pushing someone trying to get your attention is an inappropriate response  too  but being toddlers their both still learning. Asa parent I'd be a little upset if the pushers parent didn't correct the pushing and only said "hey your child waved in her face."

Maybe its just me but I'm getting a sense you're proud your daughter is more serious then the other kids and proud she stands up for herself and are totally ready to excuse violence on her part but not the intrusive behavior on the others kids parts that provoked it.  3 years old push sometimes that's pretty normal but they wave in your face and tug on your arms  too.

Hillia

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #24050 on: October 25, 2013, 11:45:32 AM »
I agree that that level of reasoning is way beyond a 3 year old, who is obviously caught up in the moment and having a fine time.  That's what parents and teachers are for, to guide the kids in working together so that everyone can have a fine time - the free form improviser and the by the book follower of choreography.  Maybe the best place for an improviser is in a class where the teacher shows them movements they use to create their own dances, and the performances are not uniform choreography but each child doing their own thing. 

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TootsNYC

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #24051 on: October 25, 2013, 11:50:24 AM »
  I don't think either is "wrong" their just too young to be in the wrong.  Getting in someone face is rude pushing someone trying to get your attention is an inappropriate response  too  but being toddlers their both still learning. Asa parent I'd be a little upset if the pushers parent didn't correct the pushing and only said "hey your child waved in her face."

Maybe its just me but I'm getting a sense you're proud your daughter is more serious then the other kids and proud she stands up for herself and are totally ready to excuse violence on her part but not the intrusive behavior on the others kids parts that provoked it.  3 years old push sometimes that's pretty normal but they wave in your face and tug on your arms  too.

I didn't assume that about Hmmmm at all. Proud of her daughter's seriousness, yes.
But she did say, "I'd be concerned that my daughter would punch someone"--that's not the word choice of someone who would blow it off.

I think that it's probably good education for a 3yo to encounter a peer who is upset with them for getting "in her face." And I'd be really frustrated if I was having to say to *my* kid, "Honey, we don't push people," but the -other- parens were making excuses for -their- child instead of saying, "Honey, we don't get close to people's faces/we don't interrupt people when they are concentrating." (3yo is not too old to learn this, if someone teaches you--I've seen it done)

shhh its me

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #24052 on: October 25, 2013, 12:01:07 PM »
  I don't think either is "wrong" their just too young to be in the wrong.  Getting in someone face is rude pushing someone trying to get your attention is an inappropriate response  too  but being toddlers their both still learning. Asa parent I'd be a little upset if the pushers parent didn't correct the pushing and only said "hey your child waved in her face."

Maybe its just me but I'm getting a sense you're proud your daughter is more serious then the other kids and proud she stands up for herself and are totally ready to excuse violence on her part but not the intrusive behavior on the others kids parts that provoked it.  3 years old push sometimes that's pretty normal but they wave in your face and tug on your arms  too.

I didn't assume that about Hmmmm at all. Proud of her daughter's seriousness, yes.
But she did say, "I'd be concerned that my daughter would punch someone"--that's not the word choice of someone who would blow it off.

I think that it's probably good education for a 3yo to encounter a peer who is upset with them for getting "in her face." And I'd be really frustrated if I was having to say to *my* kid, "Honey, we don't push people," but the -other- parens were making excuses for -their- child instead of saying, "Honey, we don't get close to people's faces/we don't interrupt people when they are concentrating." (3yo is not too old to learn this, if someone teaches you--I've seen it done)

Yes both parents should be correcting their kids , I guess I didn't make that clear.  Hmmm  posts just seems to me a great deal more disturbed by face waving then pushing.

Hmmmmm

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #24053 on: October 25, 2013, 12:39:25 PM »
  I don't think either is "wrong" their just too young to be in the wrong.  Getting in someone face is rude pushing someone trying to get your attention is an inappropriate response  too  but being toddlers their both still learning. Asa parent I'd be a little upset if the pushers parent didn't correct the pushing and only said "hey your child waved in her face."

Maybe its just me but I'm getting a sense you're proud your daughter is more serious then the other kids and proud she stands up for herself and are totally ready to excuse violence on her part but not the intrusive behavior on the others kids parts that provoked it.  3 years old push sometimes that's pretty normal but they wave in your face and tug on your arms  too.

Oh gosh, not at all. I wanted the outgoing goofy kid. The first times the scenario I described occured, my reaction was feeling like my child needed to "lighten up". It was actually an older, wiser friend who got me to understand that my DD's seriousness was her personality trait and she had as much right to be serious and want to do things perfectly without being intimidated by other children as the fun loving kids had to do things their way. There is a lot of interesting assumptions made about the parent's the kid who is intent on coloring exactly inside the lines and using realistic colors when the play group instructor is encouraging "self-expression" and "creativity".

ETA: I thought more about your comment about condoning violence. No, I don't condone violence. But there was a neighbor child who would tug on DD or if DD ignored them would wave their hands in front of DDs face yelling "HELLO,HELLO". I think at 3 or 4, DD felt as physically violated as if the girl had stomped on her foot. So if DD had pushed her back, I don't think I would have punished her more than a gentle reminder to not push.i don't have a personal space issue. I probably more prone to violate boundaries. But I'm realizing how protective I became if DDs need once I understood it was a need versus want.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 08:55:36 PM by Hmmmmm »

MommyPenguin

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #24054 on: October 25, 2013, 02:25:33 PM »
If that were my 3-year-old, I'd be amused and delighted at her additional steps, but I'd talk to her afterwards about waving in the other little girl's face.  If she wants to be exuberant in the dance, that's fine, but trying to distract other kids is not.  (And yes, her intent was probably not to distract them, but to either get them to notice her/get them to join in with her, etc., but the action can be distracting.)  That was the main issue I had, the deliberate hands-waving-in-face thing.  The rest of it was adorable, and I probably wouldn't curb that unless the teacher wanted me to, along the same reasoning as the others, that they're 3, and that the audience is probably at least somewhat charmed by it.  If it was a serious school of dance with kids who showed talent and wanted to go somewhere with it (these girls were generally much better than my 3- and 4-year-old were when they had a recital), then I'd be more likely to see the extra exuberance as a problem and try to curtail it.

Jules1980

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #24055 on: October 25, 2013, 07:40:32 PM »
In my now 5 year old's, 3 and 4 year old recitals, the kids all did very well.  I see this disruption as mostly the teacher's fault.  No they can't predict what will happen on stage.  But at DD's dance class, the teachers don't put up with play around in class and they definitely don't put up with it on stage.  Their philosphy is that I paid just as much for my daughter to take her lessons seriously and learn something as the class 'cut-up' or 'clown's' parents did for them to play.  And if the kid isn't interested in learning dance, then they can leave.  They usually lost a few criers or cut-ups ( i mean as in disruptive, not just silly) in the first few weeks.  Then starting about 2 months before rehearsal, they end each class talking about the girls you don't want to be at recital.  Debbie Downer who just looks down all the time, Peggy Parkinglot who didn't wait for her parents backstage but ran outside and got lost in the parking lot, Cathy Crier who cried all her make up off, etc.  Oh, and Penelope Picker who picks her nose on stage.  LOL.  All in all, they do all they can to prepare the kids for the stage night and then if some kid acts up or gets scared, then have the older classes on standby to run out onstage and help redirect them or get them over stage fright.  Works well, all in all.  DD's 3 year old recital, her class did great, though there was a kid in the 4 year old class that got stage fright and had to be led onstage by an older dancer.  $ year old recital there wasn't any problems.

Slartibartfast

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #24056 on: October 26, 2013, 02:40:34 PM »
Friend was out to lunch at P.F. Chang's with her three kids.  Lady at the next table started making some loud PA comments about Friend's son's wheelchair and how annoying it was to have to sit next to it.  Friend's waiter called the SS lady out on it and gave Friend's son a free piece of cake for the inconvenience.  Friend has vowed to eat at P.F. Chang's a lot more in the future.

Kimblee

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #24057 on: October 26, 2013, 02:52:54 PM »
His wheelchair? In what way does that affect her?

I mean, unless it has her pinned into her seat, in which case nicely asking if it can be moved would probably fix the issue.

I do not understand the Snowflake State of Mind.
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Hillia

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #24058 on: October 26, 2013, 03:31:28 PM »
Sadly, it used to be a quite common attitude that anyone with a physical difference was somehow subhuman and disgusting to be around, and 'normal' people should be protected from having to see a wheelchair, or crutches, or someone with spastic movements.  Karen Killilea was born premature in 1940 and developed cerebral palsy.  Her parents had to take her to 23 doctors before finding one who did not advise sending her to an institution, even though her condition was manageable and her intellectual and emotional development perfectly normal.  She tells of going on an outing with her parents and seeing a group of children from an institution, all using various assistive devices and with various issues.  People around them had no problem talking loudly about how disgusting it was that 'those people' were out in public where they could be seen, and how rude their caregivers were to impose them on everyone else.

Some people have never gotten past this viewpoint.

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VorFemme

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Re: Special Snowflake Stories
« Reply #24059 on: October 26, 2013, 04:07:37 PM »
I will admit that I noticed the group of young adults with caretakers in the parking lot where one full grown young woman was having a melt down and taking her clothes off.

But I worked as a summer volunteer at a state school/home for the adult mentally retarded some years ago and it was more along the lines of "okay - if anything happens - I need to let the trained caretakers deal with it instead of getting in their way by having a hissy fit".

Something happened, I walked a little wider around the area so that I didn't get hit by anything (she was throwing her shoes at that point) and told them "best of luck" while getting into my vehicle.  I figured the smaller the audience the less distraction for the caretakers.
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