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Author Topic: Snowflake or No-Flake?  (Read 2235 times)

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MommyPenguin

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Re: Snowflake or No-Flake?
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 08:13:52 AM »
The library I used to work at wouldn't have had room for a wheelchair if they'd had a full group, not for a preschool story time where the kids usually get up and move around during part of it.  No idea if there were issues like that or not, but to me it sounds like the definition of special snowflake to call them out on social media and start an uproar for not allowing your 20-year-old to attend a program for 2- and 3-year-olds.  By definition you are outside the rules, and while it may be reasonable to let you attend, it *is* a special accommodation.
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One Fish, Two Fish

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Re: Snowflake or No-Flake?
« Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 09:48:33 AM »
It may have been an issue of "If you let this 20 year old person in, you'd have to let other 20 year old persons in."  You can't pick and chose which are appropriate and which aren't.  By strictly adhering to an age limit, you would head off these issues at the pass.  I would also like to hear the side of the librarian's side of the situation.  Quite often when both sides are known, the outrage we as spectators can find against one side was really unfounded. 
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TaterTot

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Re: Snowflake or No-Flake?
« Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 01:27:54 PM »
It sounds like the mom in the story didn't call ahead of time to clear her child's attendance in the story time for 2-3 year olds. There could have been any number of reasons for the 20 year old being turned away other than her disability, including the person running the program not being able to accommodate her on such short notice. I'm also curious why the mom did not want to take advantage of the library program designed for those with disabilities.

Mary Lennox

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Re: Snowflake or No-Flake?
« Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 02:48:00 PM »
I think you should have waited for more information from the other library before you invited the mother & daughter to your library. How often do we see stories like this that are completely made up or spun to make the people posting look good? You've only heard one side of the situation and without any other information, you invited her to your storytime, which to me, comes across as you believing what she is saying about the other library.

What if it turns out that the mother was completely unreasonable and the library did everything they could but just couldn't accommodate the daughter? What if your library also can't accommodate them? How do you now uninvite her without her accusing your library like she did the other one?

Elisabunny

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Re: Snowflake or No-Flake?
« Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 05:10:46 PM »
I'd like to know how the librarian knew the child's age.  Because if she's tiny, it's probably not immediately obvious that she's chronologically an adult.
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Allyson

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Re: Snowflake or No-Flake?
« Reply #20 on: Yesterday at 07:29:09 PM »
Unfortunately, I have seen too many stories where one person posts about something outrageous and emotion-tugging/issue-of-the-moment happening to them, getting a huge public outcry on their behalf, then having it turn out to be false or only a half truth. A couple of recent examples from my area; a woman posted in outrage about being kicked out of a fast food place for breastfeeding. Protests! Angry reviews! Then it turned out (camera footage) that she'd been part of a larger group of people all of whom were not ordering but taking up seats, and they were all told to leave--nothing to do with breastfeeding. Another example--parents post about a bus driver kicking their son off the bus for no reasons. Calls for the driver to be fired! Then footage from the bus was posted--the boy and others were assaulting each other and dangerously, the driver! Anyway, my point is that I am really hesitant to condemn anyone or any organization based on one person's outrage.

As for the issue of letting older teens/adults who are developmentally disabled into kids' groups? I'm not sure; I don't think there's usually a problem with it, but I can see the issues with precedent and having to decide "ok, yes to this person but no to this other person".

Harriet Jones

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Re: Snowflake or No-Flake?
« Reply #21 on: Today at 11:00:16 AM »
Unfortunately, I have seen too many stories where one person posts about something outrageous and emotion-tugging/issue-of-the-moment happening to them, getting a huge public outcry on their behalf, then having it turn out to be false or only a half truth. A couple of recent examples from my area; a woman posted in outrage about being kicked out of a fast food place for breastfeeding. Protests! Angry reviews! Then it turned out (camera footage) that she'd been part of a larger group of people all of whom were not ordering but taking up seats, and they were all told to leave--nothing to do with breastfeeding. Another example--parents post about a bus driver kicking their son off the bus for no reasons. Calls for the driver to be fired! Then footage from the bus was posted--the boy and others were assaulting each other and dangerously, the driver! Anyway, my point is that I am really hesitant to condemn anyone or any organization based on one person's outrage.

As for the issue of letting older teens/adults who are developmentally disabled into kids' groups? I'm not sure; I don't think there's usually a problem with it, but I can see the issues with precedent and having to decide "ok, yes to this person but no to this other person".

That was my first thought, too, that the mom was wanting to get some viral outrage going.

DistantStar

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Re: Snowflake or No-Flake?
« Reply #22 on: Today at 11:06:05 AM »
Yes, I want to hear the other side as well, but I have heard of and experienced way too many incidents where people will say/do the most remarkably awful things about my/other people's disabilities to discount the mother's version as easily as some people here have.  Frankly, unless there was simply no room left for more people, I see no good reason for excluding them.


hermanne

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Re: Snowflake or No-Flake?
« Reply #23 on: Today at 02:16:59 PM »
ITA with PPs, we need more info here.
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Slartibartfast

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Re: Snowflake or No-Flake?
« Reply #24 on: Today at 05:10:13 PM »
It would have been fine at my library - but then I rarely had more than a dozen kids at story time, with plenty of space, and I was able to give lots of attention to each child during the craft project portion (since it was almost always just me and no other adults present - no parent involvement in that town).  Possible reasons I could see a librarian saying no in a hypothetical scenario like this:

- not enough space

- official policy re: ages of the participants (something that might be flexible with enough advance notice, but maybe not right on the spot)

- restrictions re: ages of participants based on policies of the story time space, the grant which supports/enables the program, etc. (implausible, maybe, but not impossible)

- the 20-year-old has a history of being loud, disruptive, or violent

- the caregiver has a history of being loud, disruptive, or violent

- the caregiver has a history of finding something to be outraged by and throwing a fit (whether or not anything's justified) and the librarian wants no part in it


I'd also highly doubt the actual refusal was given the way it sounds, although that doesn't mean there aren't close-minded people out there  :(

Onyx_TKD

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Re: Snowflake or No-Flake?
« Reply #25 on: Today at 06:16:47 PM »
It would have been fine at my library - but then I rarely had more than a dozen kids at story time, with plenty of space, and I was able to give lots of attention to each child during the craft project portion (since it was almost always just me and no other adults present - no parent involvement in that town).  Possible reasons I could see a librarian saying no in a hypothetical scenario like this:

- not enough space

- official policy re: ages of the participants (something that might be flexible with enough advance notice, but maybe not right on the spot)

- restrictions re: ages of participants based on policies of the story time space, the grant which supports/enables the program, etc. (implausible, maybe, but not impossible)

- the 20-year-old has a history of being loud, disruptive, or violent

- the caregiver has a history of being loud, disruptive, or violent

- the caregiver has a history of finding something to be outraged by and throwing a fit (whether or not anything's justified) and the librarian wants no part in it


I'd also highly doubt the actual refusal was given the way it sounds, although that doesn't mean there aren't close-minded people out there  :(

I think one could reasonably add:
- The 20-year-old's claimed "mental age" is too young to expect/trust them to obey societal norms, but their physical maturity makes such lapses more dangerous or otherwise problematic.

I don't have much experience with little kids, but I am under the impression that tantrums, hitting, biting, and/or shedding clothing are all fairly common behaviors for 2 to 3-year-olds. The first three could be dangerous from a person larger and/or stronger than a typical 2 to 3-year-old. As far as the latter, a spontaneously stripping toddler isn't likely to cause any serious issue for the library as long as their adults quickly correct the situation--OTOH, a bunch of toddlers getting flashed by someone who is physically an adult is likely to cause a huge uproar, even if that behavior is entirely consistent with the person's mental age. Even if these behaviors aren't an issue for this particular individual, the librarian doesn't necessarily know that if they simply show up wanting to join an activity for 2 and 3-year-olds with no advance warning.

Also, upon re-reading the OP, this jumped out at me:
A woman brought her daughter (20 years old, smaller than the average five year old, wheelchair bound and mostly silent) to her local library and was greeted by the children's librarian with a cold stare (Mom's description, not mine) and a very definite "No, she's 20 years old."  Mom was later told that she should take daughter to a program run by an organization for "people like her." 

If the librarian knew on sight without any discussion (1) her exact chronological age (despite her being unusually small) and (2) that they were intending for the 20-year-old to participate in the story hour as one of the "kids" (rather than, e.g., being in the wrong place or with an actual toddler who was currently being wrangled by another adult) implies to me that there is some history there. Since people who know this librarian are surprised by the story, I wonder if the 20-year-old has been accommodated in the past and it hasn't worked out well or if they had already discussed the possibility and her mother showed up despite being told it wasn't possible. OTOH, if there was a discussion and the mom to omit everything except the conclusion "No. She's 20 years old" then it makes me wonder about what other details she's picking and choosing.

KenveeB

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Re: Snowflake or No-Flake?
« Reply #26 on: Today at 06:24:50 PM »
I'd also highly doubt the actual refusal was given the way it sounds, although that doesn't mean there aren't close-minded people out there  :(

I just don't see how it could've been given in the exact way stated, since "no, she's 20" shows a fairly good knowledge of the person. Even just seeing someone in passing on a regular basis, you wouldn't know their exact age. There was either more to the conversation, the girl is already well-known at the location for some reason, or the refusal was not as quoted. Any of those options gives me pause in fully accepting the mother's reporting of the situation.