Forum Etiquette vs. Real Life Etiquette

[Dindrane]

Ceallach, I think that some people maybe do say things like that in real life.

I know that when it comes to telling someone I thought they were rude, I don't modify what I say on the forum all that much from how I'd say it in real life...if someone I knew asked me for my opinion.  If I thought they were really conflicted and trying to modify their behavior, I would gently tell them my opinion.  If I thought they were looking for justification for poor behavior, I wouldn't be nearly so gentle.

But the point is, the equivalent to this forum in real life is someone coming up to you, describing something they did, and asking directly, "was I rude?"  In any other real-life situation, I probably wouldn't express my opinions at all (either because it would be impolite to do so, or just not remotely worth the effort ).  But if someone asks me for my opinion, here or in real life, I'm more than happy to share it with them.

Judging from the way most people respond on here, I'd guess that a lot of people approach real life, "was I rude?" questions in a similar way to how they approach them here.  Some people are just more direct than others.

[TychaBrahe]

I think the problem some people have with the interesting assumption line is that, when used often enough, certain phrases can take on a life of their own.  I think that the IA line is definitely one of those.  People see it, and sometimes react to it immediately before they even finish reading the post - such is the phrase's power.

It can be problematic on a forum, when the point is not to shut someone down and walk away, but to foster discussion.  It seems as though there is always more than one way to phrase the sentiment behind the IA line.  And honestly, if a poster is so angry that they can't formulate any other response, they should just report the offending post and go drink a Coke.

And I think that if people are abiding by the Coke Rule, 99% of the posts that include the IA line probably wouldn't. Of course, that in itself could be an IA .

I think it's possible to say something like, "You're assuming that the boyfriend wanted to have children," or "You're assuming that the mother may not have a reason for what she said," without pulling out the IA statement.  The IA statement, I think, is intentionally dismissive.  It says, "You are assuming things about the situation, and it is not worth my time or attention to correct you."  Or worse, "*YOU* are not worth my time or attention to correct."  After all, if your friend assumed your parents paid your way through college simply because they are wealthy, you wouldn't pull out the IA statement.  You would point out that you worked/qualified for scholarships/did workstudy/served in the Marines and went to school on the GI bill/are just now paying off your student loans.  The IA statement is for someone who has no right, in your mind, to make statements about your financial situation at the time.

[little bird]

I think it's possible to say something like, "You're assuming that the boyfriend wanted to have children," or "You're assuming that the mother may not have a reason for what she said," without pulling out the IA statement.  The IA statement, I think, is intentionally dismissive.  It says, "You are assuming things about the situation, and it is not worth my time or attention to correct you." 

This is exactly why I nearly always hate the use of IA on the forum.  To me, it is so inappropriate on a forum.  The purpose of Ehell, at least in my understanding, is to foster discussion.  If you can't even bother to provide differing opinions, point out what the assumption was or offer a correction, then I feel as though one shouldn't be posting at all.  The IA line comes off as dismissive, snarky and condescending to me and I have a hard time taking threads seriously after it's been used. 

[Bijou]

On of the great things that I've experienced on eHell, is that the vast majority of posters don't hold grudges or prejudices against other posters, based on previous interactions. That is, because a poster might disagree with you on one issue, they don't automatically assume that they'll disagree with you on all other issues.

For example, I've started a topic where posters have vehemently disagreed with my opinion (and told me so in no uncertain terms!) Yet the next week I've posted another, different topic where many of those same posters have been supportive and understanding of the point I was attempting to make.

By contrast, in real life, my experience has been that when a person strongly disagrees with you on a particular issue, they are more likely to find excuses to disagree with you on other issues too. In real life, discussions tend to be so much more personal, whereas on eHell, the focus is more on the topic, not the poster.

I agree.  I have had to "Whoops..sorry" a time or two and people are gracious and forgiving.  Thank heavens.  I love them for it!

[Scuba_Dog]

Offering an opinion when asked is slightly different than starting a thread and posting  "I think people that do X are ignorant", though, right? Is it less rude than walking into a cocktail party and saying it?

Also, one can write "It bothers me when people do X", instead of "I think people that do X are <insert insult here> "
Is there a responsibility online to consider that your audience might contain at least one person that does/is X?

Yes, exactly

Agreed. 

In life and on this forum, I'm sensitive to people calling others names (not other forum members, but people they post about.) Names like, idiot, stupid, moron, etc.
Those names always bother me, but for some reason when I see it here, it really rubs me the wrong way. 

[Dindrane]

I think it's possible to say something like, "You're assuming that the boyfriend wanted to have children," or "You're assuming that the mother may not have a reason for what she said," without pulling out the IA statement.  The IA statement, I think, is intentionally dismissive.  It says, "You are assuming things about the situation, and it is not worth my time or attention to correct you." 

This is exactly why I nearly always hate the use of IA on the forum.  To me, it is so inappropriate on a forum.  The purpose of Ehell, at least in my understanding, is to foster discussion.  If you can't even bother to provide differing opinions, point out what the assumption was or offer a correction, then I feel as though one shouldn't be posting at all.  The IA line comes off as dismissive, snarky and condescending to me and I have a hard time taking threads seriously after it's been used. 

I was trying to come up with a way to say what Tycha Brahe and you said, but you've both said it better than I could.  There are ways to correct an assumption without simply calling it "interesting" and leaving it at that.  And in fact, calling something an "interesting assumption" doesn't correct it at all.

Even when you call something an interesting assumption and go on to correct it, it always seems to create or increase contentious impulses in everyone involved.

[twinkletoes]

I agree that humor doesn't always translate well.  In person, it's obvious if I'm being sarcastic.  Online, I have to be careful - if I am being sarcastic, I'll make a note about it in my post.

I do like how most of the time, I can disagree with someone in one thread, and then we can be on the same page on another thread.  There was a poster here (I don't think she posts any more) who seemed to be "stalking" me in the threads and disagreeing with me at every turn.  I don't think she was doing it deliberately, but I felt like I was jumped on - it's maddening to see the same person disagreeing with you in thread after thread for a few days straight.  It just felt weird.

[Hanna]

On eHell, when somebody says outright "you were rude" or "that's rude", I always find it a little confrontational.  In real life, we're more diplomatic than that!   I'd prefer to cushion my opinion and say "I feel that was a little rude for X reason and because of Y", or something like that.   I don't think it's entirely up to me to judge what's rude and what isn't - if these situations were so easy to judge, we wouldn't need eHell!  So I think being that direct about it is definitely a difference I've observed.  Then again, perhaps others do say "You're rude!" in real life as well as here?  I try to never be that blunt with my opinion though.

Whenever someone does that I think of Bon Qui Qui saying "Don't you see me having a conversation? Don't interupt! RUDE!"  (youtube if you haven't seen her.  Hilarious!)

It might feel good to be that blunt, but that's probably how it looks to others in real life.

[O'Dell]

I think it's possible to say something like, "You're assuming that the boyfriend wanted to have children," or "You're assuming that the mother may not have a reason for what she said," without pulling out the IA statement.  The IA statement, I think, is intentionally dismissive.  It says, "You are assuming things about the situation, and it is not worth my time or attention to correct you." 

This is exactly why I nearly always hate the use of IA on the forum.  To me, it is so inappropriate on a forum.  The purpose of Ehell, at least in my understanding, is to foster discussion.  If you can't even bother to provide differing opinions, point out what the assumption was or offer a correction, then I feel as though one shouldn't be posting at all.  The IA line comes off as dismissive, snarky and condescending to me and I have a hard time taking threads seriously after it's been used. 

IA comes off the same way to me but also as defensive. I can't help but wonder if the person uses the IA line because the comments applied to them so in their mind it was an appropriate use of the line.

[twinkletoes]

I think it's possible to say something like, "You're assuming that the boyfriend wanted to have children," or "You're assuming that the mother may not have a reason for what she said," without pulling out the IA statement.  The IA statement, I think, is intentionally dismissive.  It says, "You are assuming things about the situation, and it is not worth my time or attention to correct you." 

This is exactly why I nearly always hate the use of IA on the forum.  To me, it is so inappropriate on a forum.  The purpose of Ehell, at least in my understanding, is to foster discussion.  If you can't even bother to provide differing opinions, point out what the assumption was or offer a correction, then I feel as though one shouldn't be posting at all.  The IA line comes off as dismissive, snarky and condescending to me and I have a hard time taking threads seriously after it's been used. 

IA comes off the same way to me but also as defensive. I can't help but wonder if the person uses the IA line because the comments applied to them so in their mind it was an appropriate use of the line.

That's a good point, and I really do hate the "IA" line, too.

On another note, I have found that sometimes, it's easier to "calm" a poster down on a forum than it would be off-line.  Like, let's say someone posts about their mean, rude coworker.  Usually, you can get a lot of responses fairly quickly from a bunch of posters - ways to cope, things to say and do to diffuse the situation, and maybe even different PoV as to why this person is mean and rude.  Whereas, if you were to call your best friend or a close relative, they might not know what to do or say, having never been in your shoes.

[Lisbeth]

I agree that humor doesn't always translate well.  In person, it's obvious if I'm being sarcastic.  Online, I have to be careful - if I am being sarcastic, I'll make a note about it in my post.

I do like how most of the time, I can disagree with someone in one thread, and then we can be on the same page on another thread.  There was a poster here (I don't think she posts any more) who seemed to be "stalking" me in the threads and disagreeing with me at every turn.  I don't think she was doing it deliberately, but I felt like I was jumped on - it's maddening to see the same person disagreeing with you in thread after thread for a few days straight.  It just felt weird.

Pod.

I agree that humor and sarcasm in real life don't always translate well in this forum and elsewhere online, because we don't have body language, vocal tones, and other physical cues to go by.

In this forum, too, we tend to be somewhat more tolerant of what might be called "preaching" when someone expounds on a rule of etiquette than we might be in real life-for example, in determining who should be invited and who can be left off a guest list.  Off the forum, I think we're more likely to take potential hurt feelings or other considerations into account when someone violates, or potentially violates, etiquette and we have a dilemma of: Do we uphold etiquette or put the relationship first?

[twinkletoes]

"Off the forum, I think we're more likely to take potential hurt feelings or other considerations into account when someone violates, or potentially violates, etiquette and we have a dilemma of: Do we uphold etiquette or put the rel@tionship first?"

That's a really good point.  It's like, "I know etiquette, but I also know my family, and while Miss Manners is correct, such-and-such rule would NEVER fly with Aunt Sally and Uncle Fred." 

[sparklestar]

I think because there are such a wide range of people on the forum, you get more-or-less instant feedback from 10 different views unlike in real life, where most of your buddies might be from similar backgrounds or belief systems and agree with your view of the world. 

One thing I have noticed is the tendency to come up with outlandish excuses for bad behaviour rather than the most obvious reason which was the person being rude.  I know it's because the posters are generally very polite people themselves and can't fathom why someone would intentionally offend another.  I think I quoted this the other day but it's rather like the Absolutley Fabulous episode where the daughter Saffy says "Mum, the reason you are overweight is that you eat like a horse, drink like a fish and do zero exercise!" and Edwina the mum replies "Oh no Darling, it's FAR more likely to be an allergy!"

[T'Mar of Vulcan]

One thing I have noticed is the tendency to come up with outlandish excuses for bad behaviour rather than the most obvious reason which was the person being rude.  I know it's because the posters are generally very polite people themselves and can't fathom why someone would intentionally offend another.  I think I quoted this the other day but it's rather like the Absolutley Fabulous episode where the daughter Saffy says "Mum, the reason you are overweight is that you eat like a horse, drink like a fish and do zero exercise!" and Edwina the mum replies "Oh no Darling, it's FAR more likely to be an allergy!"

This was quite a problem on the old version of the forum (the one on Delphooey). If someone said on the forum that a person they interacted with had behaved in a rude manner, people would chime in with outlandish medical "excuses" for why the person was behaving badly. And yet, in most cases, the simplest answer is likely to be the correct one, i.e. that the person was just rude and didn't have some medical condition making them act that way. People eventually would post asking people not to use medical excuses for bad behaviour when there was no evidence it was anything medical. I posted a couple of times that it was just as likely that aliens had taken over their mind and made them do that, but the chances were against that too.

I think sometimes people are eager to find excuses for others instead of letting those people face the consequences of their actions.

[twinkletoes]

"I think sometimes people are eager to find excuses for others instead of letting those people face the consequences of their actions."

I think it might be more "I can't believe someone is THAT RUDE.  I bet they have a medical condition to explain it."  Because it's easier to excuse someone's behavior while thinking "maybe it's her medication/maybe it's her illness" instead of thinking "no, she's just a rude person."