Forum Etiquette vs. Real Life Etiquette

[Peggy Gus]

One thing I have noticed is the tendency to come up with outlandish excuses for bad behaviour rather than the most obvious reason which was the person being rude.  I know it's because the posters are generally very polite people themselves and can't fathom why someone would intentionally offend another.  I think I quoted this the other day but it's rather like the Absolutley Fabulous episode where the daughter Saffy says "Mum, the reason you are overweight is that you eat like a horse, drink like a fish and do zero exercise!" and Edwina the mum replies "Oh no Darling, it's FAR more likely to be an allergy!"

This was quite a problem on the old version of the forum (the one on Delphooey). If someone said on the forum that a person they interacted with had behaved in a rude manner, people would chime in with outlandish medical "excuses" for why the person was behaving badly. And yet, in most cases, the simplest answer is likely to be the correct one, i.e. that the person was just rude and didn't have some medical condition making them act that way. People eventually would post asking people not to use medical excuses for bad behaviour when there was no evidence it was anything medical. I posted a couple of times that it was just as likely that aliens had taken over their mind and made them do that, but the chances were against that too.

I think sometimes people are eager to find excuses for others instead of letting those people face the consequences of their actions.

It's still an issue, I've seen the excuse of "maybe they have sleep apnea" used more times than I can count. Not to mention any time someone brings up rude cell phone abuser at a funeral, graduation, church servise or wedding it is inevitable that someone will suggest they are an on-call worker.

[LifeOnPluto]

My biggest pet peeve about forum etiquette (or lack thereof ) is when trolls follow  you from the forum to your personal site (yes, even people from Ehell!) just to insult you in a way that would have them instantly banned from here. I had someone use my blog link just to post desparging remarks about my appearance and stated in their post (fake name and email addres I'm sure) that they had been posting on ehell for years.  Not working out too well for ya, eh?   Never have to worry about that in real life conversation.

Really? I'm so sorry you've had this experience. I know that several eHellions read my blog, but thankfully no one has trolled me like that!

One thing I have noticed is the tendency to come up with outlandish excuses for bad behaviour rather than the most obvious reason which was the person being rude.  I know it's because the posters are generally very polite people themselves and can't fathom why someone would intentionally offend another.  I think I quoted this the other day but it's rather like the Absolutley Fabulous episode where the daughter Saffy says "Mum, the reason you are overweight is that you eat like a horse, drink like a fish and do zero exercise!" and Edwina the mum replies "Oh no Darling, it's FAR more likely to be an allergy!"

This was quite a problem on the old version of the forum (the one on Delphooey). If someone said on the forum that a person they interacted with had behaved in a rude manner, people would chime in with outlandish medical "excuses" for why the person was behaving badly. And yet, in most cases, the simplest answer is likely to be the correct one, i.e. that the person was just rude and didn't have some medical condition making them act that way. People eventually would post asking people not to use medical excuses for bad behaviour when there was no evidence it was anything medical. I posted a couple of times that it was just as likely that aliens had taken over their mind and made them do that, but the chances were against that too.

I think sometimes people are eager to find excuses for others instead of letting those people face the consequences of their actions.

I remember a thread on the "old forums" where the OP's BIL agreed to be Best Man at their wedding, but point-blankly refused to make a speech or toast. A whole bunch of posters jumped on the OP, basically claiming that the BIL might have had a crippling social phobia which prevented him from speaking in public, and that the OP was being hideously awful by wanting him to make a speech at the wedding. To me, that was over the top.

I think one has to weigh up the possibility and probability. Yes, it's technically possible that a seemingly rude person might have an underlying medical condition that explains their behaviour. But is it probable? What are the odds?

Furthermore, even if there is a medical condition which explains the rude behaviour, it still doesn't excuse it. In my view, it is generally possible to have a medical condition AND avoid rude behaviour.

[blarg314]

A example to mind was a thread on families with many children and a posted commented that the parents couldn't possibly spend quality time with all of them.
I felt that was an interesting assumption. 

Actually, this illustrates an interesting point.

Spoken conversations depend strongly on a lot of things that aren't actually spoken - tone of voice, body language and so on. They are also a lot faster and more fluid, and you don't get a chance to proof-read your response.

On a forum, the medium of communication is written, not spoken. In many ways, it's more like a formal debate or panel discussion than a conversation.  As a result, the details of your phrasing and logic matter a lot more.

So in the example above, the statments

"Parents who have a lot of kids can't possibly spend enough quality time with each of them"

and

"I can't see how parents with a lot of kids can spend enough quality time with each of them"

may have the same meaning behind them, but the first is phrased as a statement of fact, the second as a personal view point.

[curiousjoan]

Blarg, that is a very good point. Sometimes it can be difficult to phrase things "right" here, to get across the meaning behind the words you choose (whereas, in a face-to-face setting, that meaning can be communicated in a myriad of other ways). I think it's important to think about the little things that can twist a post in an entirely different way... so in a way, forum etiquette is the etiquette of word-based interactions, as opposed to more "action"-based ones (if that makes sense! I might be proving my point here ). By action I really mean continually moving and adjusting (in tone, body language, etc.) instead of static, like posts can be here. Sure makes it harder to backtrack and correct yourself!

This is a very interesting discussion. 

[Bob Ducca]

Here's one I just noticed:

In real life, if people are "called out" for rude behavior or undue harshness, they usually apologize.  As in:

"I don't know what you're so concerned about, you're being silly."
"I don't think I'm being silly, why would you say that to me?"
"I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be so harsh."

On forum, people can just ignore the discussion.  They can pop in, say something nasty, then pop out with none of the unpleasant consequences of having hurt someone's feelings.  I suppose it's possible that some people may apologize via PM, but it seems that if the offense was given in the thread, the apology should be there, too.

(I'm not talking about giving advice that goes against the prevailing flow, I'm talking about using insulting or harsh language when giving advice.)

[meliboea]

My biggest pet peeve about the way some people express themselves on this forum is the use of "that's an interesting assumption". The IA line is meant for times when you are so shocked, you can't formulate a response. The fact that E-hell is not actually a conversation, in the sense that we can all take quite a bit of time to formulate our responses, makes using the IA line rude. You have plenty of time to write a response that corrects the assumption, instead of simply calling someone out on it.

I'm glad other people feel this way. I was starting to suspect it was the Ehell equivalent of a one-fingered salute.

I've been thinking about this lately too. I've noticed that some people here are quicker to take offense than on other message boards. Now is it that people here are more sensitive and, dare I say, prickly? Or is it because people here are quicker to pick up on subtleties of language and expression? A little of both I think.

Some of the situations that I witnessed here have reminded me of the first message board that I participated in. It was focused on men and men's issues. Boy that was an eye-opener for me...in good ways and bad!    Other women posted on there as well. Occasionally a man would post a rant/vent about women in general...some might even have been considered women bashing. It was a joke among the men there that no matter how much truth there was to the generality, there was sure to be a woman pop in, act all offended, and say that it didn't apply to her. The men complained that women were always saying "I'm not like that!" And honestly, once it was pointed out, I saw that it was true! Soon the men were mocking the women for posting that sort of comment and some of the women posted to say that they weren't like that and didn't post that sort of comment.  And no they weren't being ironic.

I see that a lot here. Someone says they think it's really rude when someone does x and if they don't qualify it and put conditions on it and say in my opinion and "I think" and "maybe", bam...someone jumps in to say that "I'm not like that!" They are the exception, or they've had to do it and feel justified or whatever their reasoning that the rule doesn't apply to them. Honestly I just figure that it's really more to do with their own issues than what's been said, and move on.

I think the difference between that sort of thing in real life v the internet is that people are less likely to pipe up and call attention to their "I'm not like that" status for a variety of reasons. On the internet there is less that holds people back from saying things they would not say in real life where they face more repercussions. And because it has more to do with people's own issues, I don't think there is a way to eliminate it. It's something that they have to wrestle with.

I have noticed this a bit here. It's been my general experience that people are more likely to be receptive to criticism when it's delivered by relative strangers on a forum as opposed to friends or family. I think there might be an emotional component at work here, as though some people feel they've been judged by an etiquette forum and found lacking.

I really does irk me when people hijack a thread in the manner you described. Is there really a polite way to say "This situation isn't analgous to yours. I understand you have issues regarding this general subject, but this thread isn't the place to discuss them"?

[twinkletoes]

"I really does irk me when people hijack a thread in the manner you described. Is there really a polite way to say "This situation isn't analgous to yours. I understand you have issues regarding this general subject, but this thread isn't the place to discuss them"? "

I think you could suggest that the poster start a s/o thread. 

Going back on topic, I have seen some really ugly comments in a few hot topics.  I try to bow out of those threads, because they will only end in tears, but when I see some of those comments, I find myself checking the URL in my browser.

[Bob Ducca]

I see that a lot here. Someone says they think it's really rude when someone does x and if they don't qualify it and put conditions on it and say in my opinion and "I think" and "maybe", bam...someone jumps in to say that "I'm not like that!" They are the exception, or they've had to do it and feel justified or whatever their reasoning that the rule doesn't apply to them. Honestly I just figure that it's really more to do with their own issues than what's been said, and move on.

I really does irk me when people hijack a thread in the manner you described. Is there really a polite way to say "This situation isn't analgous to yours. I understand you have issues regarding this general subject, but this thread isn't the place to discuss them"?

This is a huge issue for me and has kept me from posting in threads many, many times.  Making a general statement like, "Elephants have wrinkly skin," and then having someone post, "But MY elephant Isadora had beautiful skin!" totally derails the entire thing.  Especially when people (politely) try to re-focus the discussion by repeating the point, and that person continues to chime in, "Not me!  I'm not like that!"  I haven't figured out a polite way to say, "Okay, then this thread is discussing the other 5,999,999,999 people in the world."

And a spin-off in this situation really won't work.  Suggest a spin-off thread so that one person can discuss how he/she is different from the rest of the general population?  They aren't trying to change the topic, they are essentially trying to shut down a branch of discussion because it doesn't apply to them personally.

[Dindrane]

Mainstay, I wonder if that's the kind of post that should be reported to the mods?  I'm pretty sure the forum rules say something about making sure you are posting something productive whenever you post anything.  It's very likely that they would be less than pleased with such a post, if it really sounded like the poster dissenting was trying to shut down the entire discussion because their experience was different.

But aside from reporting it, I think the best way to keep a thread from getting derailed by posts like that is for everyone to just ignore them.  If nobody responds to that type of post, then the discussion can continue as if the post never existed.

That's another area where my interpersonal skills have been honed by Ehell, incidentally.  Since I have all this practice on here walking away from unproductive arguments, ignoring posts that would otherwise make me angry (and rude), and sometimes ignoring entire threads because I can tell that nothing good will come of my reading them...I've gotten a lot better at doing that in real life.

It's seriously so much easier to just walk away from an argument or annoying comment when it's on the internet.  Nobody will ever know you're doing it.  You can even type out a whole post responding to it, and then delete it.  But it's handy that practicing keeping my big mouth shut at inappropriate times on here has spilled over into my real life.  My temper is not known for being slow to ignite, and I don't have an overwhelming amount of patience, so I need all the help I can get.

[Bob Ducca]

Mainstay, I wonder if that's the kind of post that should be reported to the mods?  I'm pretty sure the forum rules say something about making sure you are posting something productive whenever you post anything.  It's very likely that they would be less than pleased with such a post, if it really sounded like the poster dissenting was trying to shut down the entire discussion because their experience was different.

But aside from reporting it, I think the best way to keep a thread from getting derailed by posts like that is for everyone to just ignore them.  If nobody responds to that type of post, then the discussion can continue as if the post never existed.

Re: reporting to mods: I think the problem arises when people's descriptions of "productive" differ.  A long-time poster who continually posts about a one-time, unique situation as though it makes the entire discussion moot can give the impression that it is sanctioned, but perhaps no one has tried reporting it in the past.  I will start, when I see it.

Re: ignoring it: I certainly do ignore it, by not posting in the thread.  But ignoring it doesn't work unless everyone does it, and the higher someone's post count is, the less likely they are to be ignored.

[Dindrane]

Re: reporting to mods: I think the problem arises when people's descriptions of "productive" differ.  A long-time poster who continually posts about a one-time, unique situation as though it makes the entire discussion moot can give the impression that it is sanctioned, but perhaps no one has tried reporting it in the past.  I will start, when I see it.

Re: ignoring it: I certainly do ignore it, by not posting in the thread.  But ignoring it doesn't work unless everyone does it, and the higher someone's post count is, the less likely they are to be ignored.

That is very true, about differing definitions of "productive."  But at the end of the day, the only opinion on the subject that matters is Ehelldame's.  I do think that if people who are bothered by this report the posts in question, the mods and/or Ehelldame will also notice the pattern (if there is one), and will take appropriate action if they think it is detrimental to this forum.

I definitely know that it's frustrating to try to ignore something that only gets worse because other people aren't ignoring it.  But, I don't know of any way to politely call someone out for that sort of thing without just completely derailing the thread, and the more people who ignore it, the less likely the thread is to go off-topic.

[twinkletoes]

""Not me!  I'm not like that!"  I haven't figured out a polite way to say, "Okay, then this thread is discussing the other 5,999,999,999 people in the world.""

I hate that, and I hate its cousin - "don't forget about this tiny subset!"  Like, let's say someone is hosting Thanksgiving, so they post their menu on the board.  I would be willing to bet a doughnut that someone will say "but what will the vegetarians/diabetics/etc. have to eat?"  It's all I can do not to reply "I'm sure the OP knows her guests, and has planned the menu accordingly."  Because if you're on an etiquette forum, I'd assume that you would want to accomodate your guests as well as you could - so if you DID have a guest or two who were vegetarian, you'd have, for example, a veggie lasagna and make sure most/all of the sides were meat-free. 

[gollymolly2]

The comment about people who derail threads with their own unique circumstances made me think about ways that I derail threads. I think in real life I tend to be argumentative (and so are many of my friends) so it's normal for me to pick up on something and argue it to death. I have to remind myself here that this is not a debate, and there's nothing to win, so I can just make my point, clarify it if necessary, and then accept that some people are just going to disagree with me.
So that's another way that life is different than the forum - Whereas you can tell from other people's body language in real life when you're monopolizing a conversation, on the forum you need to do more self policing. [and on that note, I'm taking a break from the airport thread because I'm obviously being argumentative and repetitive. I love it when threads like this make me think about my own behavior ]

[Shores]

 I haven't figured out a polite way to say, "Okay, then this thread is discussing the other 5,999,999,999 people in the world."

Can you clarify this a bit further for me? I know you used an example, but since no one here really discusses elephant skin, I'm wondering what context you mean. For instance, I really saw a post that says "Bicycles from X City NEVER obey traffic laws!", expressing frustration as a driver. If someone posted "Actually, I'm a bucyclist from X City and I do follow the rules", would that fall under this complaint? Because, in that case, I'D be annoyed at the poster who made such a generalization to begin with. I htink people need to be really careful about every posting something about "All these people" or "every whozit", nobody likes being generalized.

[Bob Ducca]

I

I haven't figured out a polite way to say, "Okay, then this thread is discussing the other 5,999,999,999 people in the world."

Can you clarify this a bit further for me? I know you used an example, but since no one here really discusses elephant skin, I'm wondering what context you mean. For instance, I really saw a post that says "Bicycles from X City NEVER obey traffic laws!", expressing frustration as a driver. If someone posted "Actually, I'm a bucyclist from X City and I do follow the rules", would that fall under this complaint? Because, in that case, I'D be annoyed at the poster who made such a generalization to begin with. I htink people need to be really careful about every posting something about "All these people" or "every whozit", nobody likes being generalized.

Okay, here's an example, but I want to avoid being too specific.

OP: It has come to my attention that two of the girls in my child's ballet class call her names and ridicule her.  How can I bring that up with the teacher?

Reply: Tell her exactly what's going on, and ask your DD to etc. etc.

and it goes on until we get this:

Reply: OP, I took ballet classes for 28 years and never, ever had another child behave rudely toward me.  I think this is really an isolated incident and one you shouldn't be concerned about.

In other words, when people use their own experience to negate the OP's.  The kind of thing you were talking about (generalizing vis. a specific city, profession, etc.) is rude to begin with.  I'm talking about very very general, human behaviors (common habits, hobbies, etc.) that people discount because it doesn't match their own, personal experience.