Throwing Yourself a Party -- Always Rude?

[CluelessBride]

The only time I have a problem with the rule at all is if one person in a group keeps getting forgotten while everyone else in that group gets an occasion hosted for them-especially when dropping out of the group is hard or impossible. That one person is being treated rotten IMO.

I think no one disagrees that the person is being treated rotten. But I guess I (and Mainstay) don't see how the person throwing their own party is fixing that. How is that improving the person's treatment by their social circle?

Honestly, if you look at the most popular answer on the poll Aeris started, it was the parties are acceptable if they are the custom in one's circle or culture. Most people arguing for them is that in their culture, that is what is done.

The scenario you are describing is the opposite of that. They are not the not the norm - in fact the opposite is. Don't you think the likelihood of discomfort within a social circle for a self-hosted birthday party is raised exponentially when literally no one else does it?

Let's say, for the sake of argument, there's some actual reason that no one throws this hypothetical person a birthday party. That isn't going to be fixed by this method.

Maybe this person should approach a trusted member of the family or group and ask why they are the only ones left out of the hosted birthday party when everyone else gets one every year? If it is a group I cannot leave for some reason, I'd want to know why this slight is happening rather than just throw my own party, which will make the fact that everyone else has a hosted party and I don't much, much more blatantly obvious.

Agreed.

I do see the truth in that.  However, sometimes I think its less about the person, and more about the timing.  There are certain times of year that are just really inconvenient for people, and it can just be tough throw together a party.  And because its busy, people miss things.  Between 1-2 months after my birthday, I usually have several people remembering they forgot it.  I really don't think it's anything personal, these are friends who are otherwise wonderful, it's just that it's a really nutsy time of year.  Since I've never had a celebration, I actually think that some friends don't know when it is, because I don't throw myself parties and nobody else does.

Oh to clarify I'm in the US, but my social circle does is mostly a throw your own circle.  But I'm sure there are plenty of people in "don't throw your own" circles that have unfortunately inconvenient birthday dates.

[a]

MarineVet, this is from the other thread on the same topic where Magdalena and others wrote about German/Dutch birthday etiquette. I have added (EHD) to show what she wrote:

Quote from: magdalena on August 03, 2007, 04:27:39 AM

Here in Germany, the customs and etiquette of birthdays are quite the opposite (and pretty much the same as in the Netherlands from what Shores has been saying):
you are supposed to throw your own party.

(EHD)
Just curious but who are the etiquette experts in Germany and the Netherlands who advocates this?  I did a google search for European etiquette experts and repeatedly found examples of the American etiquette icons of Post, Baldrige and Miss Manners being referenced in articles about European etiquette.  It would appear that American etiquette experts are defining what is good etiquette beyond the borders of North America.

Quote from: Shores on August 03, 2007, 07:24:13 AM
Are we all to be homogenized now?

(EHD)
"Note regarding Dutch etiquette books, can you please quote and reference a Dutch etiquette expert on the topic of discussion?  A lot of people claim North American etiquette is such and so but which conflicts 100% with what etiquette mavens such as Martin, Post and Baldrige advocate.  I've given you my references, no fair not giving me yours.   

As for homogenization, I view fundamental points of etiquette as addressing issues of human nature regardless of culture.  Explain to me how hosting your own birthday is NOT drawing attention and honor upon yourself?  I don't see how anyone can claim it is not."   

To me, together with the other comments made, this clearly implies that EHD feels that hosting your own party is wrong no matter what the culture is. There are more comments made by her in the other thread too; I posted a comment made by the Swedish etiquette guru but she never came back on that.

To the bolded.  Please show me where I ever posted that EHD *didn't* imply that she felt hosting your own party was wrong no matter what the culture?  That *is not* my issue. 

My issue is taking her above comments and others, and arriving to the assumption (a huge one) that EHD thinks the below.  I also have a problem w/ posters outright declaring that the below is her opinion, when in fact she never *said* anything quoted there.

You seriously can not find any fault etiquette wise, with saying that the etiquette rules in the entire western world except the USA are wrong?

and

Ehelldame has basically stated that the way things are done in Europe is wrong.

Again, I find it rude and ungracious to our host, to continue to make huge assumptions about her opinion in this matter.  I'm also annoyed by people posting their opinions, as fact. 
Anyone is welcome to read into her comments what they want, they can take from them what they want, but they cannot assume that the conclusion they have come to is fact and, should stop posting as if it is.

I keep coming back to one of the rules of the forum, which is essentially not to *look* for offence.  I have read her replies and I can see where you and other have come to your opinions, but I (and others) see it from a different angle.  It's all only *our opinions* at this point and I think we need to remember that when posting.

I keep saying that I'll stop posting about this but everytime another post comes, with quotes from EHD that *don't* say anything close to what is quoted above, I feel compelled to point the same things out again.

Bottom line, for me anyway, is that if such a broad and sweeping statement about the HOST of this forum is going to be made (quotes above) then they should be based in fact, not opinion. 

Direct quotes are necessary here.

Well please show me where I ever posted that *you* thought that EHD *didn't* imply that she felt hosting your own party was wrong no matter what the culture...

You stated that the information given, in your view, was not enough to jump to the conclusion some of us have jumped to. I added some information that EHD has posted previously, that, in my view indicate that she feels that organising your own party is always wrong. I did not intend to say anything about what you think or do not think, that is up to you to write about, if you wish to; but I only added some more information that could have been interesting to you to form an opinion. Clearly it was not, and I'm sorry about that, but nothing was written to offend you.

Like you, I think it'd be interesting to hear her view on this again and perhaps once and for all, but since she has not come back, information has been sought from other threads.

 

[Scuba_Dog]

Well please show me where I ever posted that *you* thought that EHD *didn't* imply that she felt hosting your own party was wrong no matter what the culture...

From your post to me (#296) You quoted a lot (and I'm trying to keep the quote tree to a minimum, but you can reference 296) At the end you said;

Explain to me how hosting your own birthday is NOT drawing attention and honor upon yourself?  I don't see how anyone can claim it is not."  

Sorry, in all the quote tree mess, I took that as you asking *me* that question.

In the end, a, my main issue with *ALL* of this, is posters taking *their* interpretation of EHD's words and quoting them as fact.  

We can all come to our own conclusions here, but we must remember not to imply in *anyway* that the conclusions we have come to are EHD's opinion.  That's not ok, here, or anywhere else.  

edited to say that the quotes here are screwy.  Sorry.  Two term papers finished, cleaning a house, getting a kid ready for trick or treating, and answering the door to 350 (easy) T-o-T'ers.  I'm a little off right now.  Where is that bottle of Port?

[PeterM]

(EHD)
As for homogenization, I view fundamental points of etiquette as addressing issues of human nature regardless of culture.  Explain to me how hosting your own birthday is NOT drawing attention and honor upon yourself?  I don't see how anyone can claim it is not."   

As others have already pointed out, I'm having trouble seeing how marriages pass this test but self-hosted birthday parties don't. Especially since the self-hosting birthday folks don't expect gifts in the cultures being discussed. I'm all for inconsistent rules and special exceptions, personally, but if EHD is going to insist on the no asking for honor or attention rule but still thinks American wedding customs are okay, that's a really big inconsistency and blind spot.

[a]

Well please show me where I ever posted that *you* thought that EHD *didn't* imply that she felt hosting your own party was wrong no matter what the culture...

From your post to me (#296) You quoted a lot (and I'm trying to keep the quote tree to a minimum, but you can reference 296) At the end you said;

Explain to me how hosting your own birthday is NOT drawing attention and honor upon yourself?  I don't see how anyone can claim it is not."  

Sorry, in all the quote tree mess, I took that as you asking *me* that question.

In the end, a, my main issue with *ALL* of this, is posters taking *their* interpretation of EHD's words and quoting them as fact.  

We can all come to our own conclusions here, but we must remember not to imply in *anyway* that the conclusions we have come to are EHD's opinion.  That's not ok, here, or anywhere else.  

edited to say that the quotes here are screwy.  Sorry.  Two term papers finished, cleaning a house, getting a kid ready for trick or treating, and answering the door to 350 (easy) T-o-T'ers.  I'm a little off right now.  Where is that bottle of Port?

That sentence (Explain to me how hosting your own birthday is NOT drawing attention and honor upon yourself?  I don't see how anyone can claim it is not.)  was part of my quote of EHD's post in another thread, indicated by the " ". She wrote:

"Note regarding Dutch etiquette books, can you please quote and reference a Dutch etiquette expert on the topic of discussion?  A lot of people claim North American etiquette is such and so but which conflicts 100% with what etiquette mavens such as Martin, Post and Baldrige advocate.  I've given you my references, no fair not giving me yours.   

As for homogenization, I view fundamental points of etiquette as addressing issues of human nature regardless of culture.  Explain to me how hosting your own birthday is NOT drawing attention and honor upon yourself?  I don't see how anyone can claim it is not."   

Under that I wrote:
To me, together with the other comments made, this clearly implies that EHD feels that hosting your own party is wrong no matter what the culture is. There are more comments made by her in the other thread too; I posted a comment made by the Swedish etiquette guru but she never came back on that.

So I didn't ask you anything, just posted what EHD posted in another thread!

[Wordgeek]

This is going in circles.

I'm locking the thread until such a time as Ehelldame is able to respond for herself.  That seems only fair, since it's her opinion you're discussing.

[Ehelldame]

I'm sorry I have not returned to address this thread in a few days.  I hosted our largest annual party last weekend and prep took much longer than expected.  As I have said before, my real life trumps forum "life" every time and my delay in responding in no way reflects a capitulation or abandonment of my opinions.

Now, let's get down to business (cracks her knuckles...)

Point 1:  Did anyone notice that the OP never mentioned the country of her origin yet within the first page of replies several European members (and sadly mislead US members) encourage  her to go right ahead and host her own party without any caveats that while this might be acceptable in their native country, it is not acceptable in the context of US etiquette?  Yet as the thread progresses, there is an insistence that I qualify my etiquette opinions as being solely applicable to US standards.   It has been stated before and bears repeating:  I am a resident of the US, the server is hosted in the US, this site is targeted to citizens of the US. 

The server stats bear this out.  90% of all hits on the domain www.etiquettehell.com are from USA networks whereas 10% comes from outside the US:
2.84% Australia
2.13% United Kingdom
1.53 Canada
1.15%  Netherlands
.53 Russian Federation
.43% New Zealand
.22% Germany
.11% Denmark
with 123 other countries sharing a tiny 1.06% of the pie. 

My target audiences are USAians and the etiquette that has and will continue to come out of this site will reflect traditional USA etiquette values and standards.

Point 2:  The characterization that I am dismissive of all European culture is a strawman debate fallacy based on setting up this one difference of opinion on a relatively minor etiquette issue and knocking it down as proof of a broad ranging dismissal of ALL European culture and etiquette. 

Point 3:  It did not escape my notice just what exactly our European members said about their on country's birthday party hosting.  It started with Sycorax's simply stated, terse and clear explanation:

Sycorax:  In my part of the world (Germany) everyone is throwing one's own birthday party. If we'd wait for our friends to give a birthday party for us we'd never get one. And so here it's even normal that you get gifts on the birthday party you throw for yourself.

And in rapid success, four more affirmed the simple statement:

Jadegirl :  It's the same here in Australia
MariaE    And in both Denmark and New Zealand.
MrsO   And England!
SamInTheShadows  And Holland.

It doesn't take a genius in English grammar to parse Sycorax's two sentences...they don't get a birthday party if they didn't host it themselves and gifts ARE a part of this party one hosts for oneself.  It cannot be parsed to be understood any other way so we the readers have no choice but to conclude these five people meant what they said and said what they meant.   If I then apply the questions I mentioned in a previous post, this is what we must conclude:

Who am I serving by this? Well, the answer is obvious - YOU!  You get a party no one else could be bothered to host. 
What do I get out of this?  A party for YOU!  And gifts for YOU! 
Have I done this for others?  Of course not!  Because it's all about making sure your own birthday is celebrated.  To Ehell with everyone else.

Epic Fail, at least by Ehell standards. 

Someone posted that hosting her own birthday party does serve her guests according to the Ehell criteria.  I've read some pretty creative claims over the years that guests really are being served by a faux pas. Money dancing, for instance.     "I'm serving my guests who want to have a dance with me/want to give me money but can't figure out how to do it.  What I get out of it is the satisfaction of giving my guests the chance to dance with me and not be awkward in handing me money."  And on and on.   If we were truly then serving our guests in this manner, we'd put ATM machines in the reception venue to facilitate their ease in gift giving.  Sorry, it doesn't fly with the money dancers and it isn't going to fly with the self-hosted birthday party people either.

Point 4:  MarieE quoted a long dead Danish etiquette maven in this post http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=68151.msg1601950#msg1601950 yet she dismisses some of the 1918 etiquette as "outdated".  The irony is that she doesn't seem to include the tiny snippet about gentlemen having a few friends over for a meal as outdated either.   The further irony is that what she considered the"outdated" part, I would have agreed is a more sensible and hospitable manner of celebrating a birthday, that is that friends and family all know when your birthday is and it is customary for them to stop by during a customary time frame to express their well wishes.  The good host/ess then offers refreshments.  That, to me, is not a party.  It is friends and family choosing of their own initiative to journey to your home to extend congratulations on making yet another yearly milestone.  In today's electronic culture, we express those well wishes with posts to Facebook walls instead of getting off our lazy backsides, traveling and actually having face to face communication with the birthday person. 

Marcel did a good job researching and quoting several Dutch alleged etiquette experts or sources.  However, there are prominent US etiquette gurus with books piled high whose opinions on several etiquette issues I wouldn't trust at all and which I vehemently oppose.  Carly Roney, founder and CEO of The Knot.com, is one such person.   Carly Roney has advocated gift giving for engagement parties ( http://video.filestube.com/video,525bc4a05458a23603e9.html)  and asking for charitable donations instead of gifts (http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-07/2006-07-17-voa59.cfm?CFID=323094231&CFTOKEN=50274497&jsessionid=de30d06aabe81c9221d329313d6a2e3e6353). Anything Roney advocates as permissible regarding gift registries must be viewed with suspicion.  Why? Because TheKnot.com is also the world's largest online gift registry.  Roney has a vested financial interest in promoting registries and expanding the gift giving (grubbing) occasions associated with a wedding.  It's etiquette advice delivered with a mixed motive of profiting from the dispersal of that advice.   (The Knot.com's partnering with Evite.com is the subject of a whole other thread.)

Even Jeanne Phillips, daughter of Dear Abby founder Abigail Van Buren and the current "Dear Abby", goofed up once by offering a silly poem for someone to include in an invitation to solicit money gifts.  Jeanne! Jeanne!  How could you have brought such reproach on that name! 

Point 5: To those of you who give the reasoning for hosting your own birthday celebrations as an "excuse to get together and have fun with friends", what about the other 51 weekends of the year to also do this?   I must be from a different generation because the only excuse I or my friends need to get together and have some fun is because we enjoy each others' company.   Even 25 years ago I and my merry band of similarly aged, new mom friends would spontaneously arrange to go out at night for drinks and desserts and laugh ourselves sick. 

Point 6:  If it didn't matter to you about being the guest of honor, you would not go to trouble to mention to people that it is your birthday and therefore some sort of celebration arrangements will be forthcoming.  Simply plan a get-together and say nothing. 

Point 7:  Those making a big deal about bridal showers and bridesmaids dresses must not have read any of my books. My brides in real life typically do buy the bridesmaids dresses with the stated understanding to their attendants that if they do so, the bride then owns that dress to with as she wishes.    Bridal showers are gift grubbing events when orchestrated or planned in any way by the recipient/guest of honor of the shower or her family.  If friends choose to initiate the giving of gifts via a shower, more power to them for wanting to bless a friend.   That hasn't changed in the 13+ years Ehell has been in existence and it goes back even farther via Emily Post et al so I'm not sure why this is presented as some reprehensible US etiquette custom.  There seems to be a failure to understand the concept of who initiates the honoring, the gift giving, etc.  Short rule:  If you initiate to honor yourself/get gifts, that's bad.  If you initiate to honor someone else, shower them with gifts out of generosity, that's good. 


This thread will not re-open.  The same dozen or so posters have had 300 posts and 21 pages to express their opinions, I have two posts.  Someone bookmark this post please.