Facebook Photo Thievery

[Miss Unleaded]

Rude?  Possibly.  Illegal? Yes.  Sorry folks, but posting on Facebook doesn't invalidate the photographer's copyright.

In the situation where the husband had taken the photos I'd agree with you.  It's both rude and illegal for others to pass them off as their own work.

If he scanned the pictures, without permission, then he violated the copyright and the people who took them and posted themselves compounded the crime.  Just because someone has violated copyright doesn't put those pictures into the public domain.  Copyright is about distributing copies without permission -- it doesn't matter if you're the first or the 100th in the chain.

That's true, I worded my response poorly.  But I was more making the point that he would have cause for offense had he taken the photos himself.  He didn't though, which is why I don't think copyright is relevent to the situations described, except insofar as all parties are likely equally guilty of offense.

[auntmeegs]

No, its not rude.  They're pictures, they're not original poetry or artwork or something like that.

Photographs most certainly are artworks and, as such, have the same protections as other artworks.

Only to the photographer that took them originally.  That's not the case here. 

[cbcb]

I vote that it's rude to post the photo that other people took if you imply that you took them, or if you know based on past interactions that this bothers the other person (especially because you can just post the link to their album, provided that they have it set for "friends of friends" to see). Not rude to use a photo that someone else took as your profile pic.

[Lynnv]

Sorry, but it's not rude nor is it illegal.

The only way(s) the picture stealing would be illegal is if the nephew is passing it off to make a profit. He would be selling someone else's work as his own. Another way is if your DH was a professional photographer and took the photos professionally, was paid for them, and nephew tried to pass them off as his own work.

That is not correct.  DH is a pretty decent non-professional photographer.  He holds the copyright to his artwork just like any other artist.  Someone copying his work and using it is in violation, whether or not they give him credit and whether or not they make a profit from the use of his artwork.

The thing with the internet is it is public domain. It's like posting a photo up on a bulletion board at work or at the local gathering place. But if someone is selling it in their name and making a profit off of it, then thats illegal.

Putting the photos on the internet does not negate the copyright holder's rights.  That being said, FB does get some rights to the photo if you publish it there-which means posters really should be aware of the rights FB has to your photos if you post them there.

It does not matter how they are placed for viewing (internet, gallery, passed out at a club meeting, put into an art show), copyright is not negated just because the photos are available for viewing....no matter how easy it is to steal them.

All that being said, I find scenarios 1 & 2 only slightly rude.  These were family snapshots, posted to FB to be shared.  The original photographers, if I am reading correctly, have passed away-so the rights have probably passed down to the assorted family members.

Had I wanted to use those photos, I would have let the person know I was doing so and would have given credit for the work of scanning and fixing the photos for internet publication.

The third scenario, I find rude.  Since your DH took those photos-he is the direct owner of all rights to the artowrk.  Using someone else's artwork like that-without permission-is a violation of copyright...which means that it is stealing.  No matter how easy it is, it is stealing.  And stealing is rude.

Now-as, again, the photos are family snapshots, I would be inclined to either overlook the offense or-at most-ask to be given credit for the photo.  But that does not mean that no offense happened.  It just means that I would not find it a major offense.

[Lynnv]

No, its not rude.  They're pictures, they're not original poetry or artwork or something like that.

Photographs most certainly are artworks and, as such, have the same protections as other artworks.

Only to the photographer that took them originally.  That's not the case here. 

If I read the OP correctly, the third case was use of the OP's DH's original photograph. 

However, I was responding to the statement that photographs are not artworks.  A lot of them (especially if I took them) may not be very good artwork.  Some of DH's photos, on the other hand, are very good indeed.  Regardless of whether they are good or bad, photograpbhs are still artworks and have the same copyright protections as any other artworks.

[high dudgeon]

Legality aside, if you put something up on the internet, even in a restricted setting like FB, you're still essentially sharing it with the world. Any of your FB friends can take it, copy it and repost it anywhere they want to. So if you're not comfortable with your FB stuff being copied and passed along throughout the world, then don't post it at all. I don't think it was rude of family members to do that, but if you're going to keep putting up pictures you have taken, you can add a copyright notice to them to mark them as yours so when it's inevitably passed on, people will know who it belongs to.

[Ms_Cellany]

To be pedantic, what's going on is a mismatch in how different generations regard Internet media. I'm in a formal graduate program, studying this kind of thing now. Some of the relevant terms are "collapse of private/public spheres," "replicability," "invisible audiences," "scalability," and "persistence."  Kids growing up with social networking have grown up used to these concepts. Newer (generally adult) users can find them a bit of a shock.

In other words: if you post something, you regard it as private, but can't tell how many people are actually seeing it. Because cut-and-paste are so easy, anyone can copy it, where it's available to a far wider audience, and stays out there long past any time you might have expected. (this is true of Internet in general, not just the social networking sites.)

I generally dislike the term "paradigm shift," but this truly is one. The expectations, and thus the etiquette, are changing very rapidly.

In the courses I'm taking, profs are predicting a massive change in the nature & legal structure of copyright.

------
ETA that the very notion of copyright didn't even exist until after the printing press came along. Until others could make *lots* of copies of your work easily, there wasn't any need to protect them. The term "intellectual property" would've made a medieval author look at you like you were insane.

[Lynnv]

Legality aside, if you put something up on the internet, even in a restricted setting like FB, you're still essentially sharing it with the world. Any of your FB friends can take it, copy it and repost it anywhere they want to. So if you're not comfortable with your FB stuff being copied and passed along throughout the world, then don't post it at all. I don't think it was rude of family members to do that, but if you're going to keep putting up pictures you have taken, you can add a copyright notice to them to mark them as yours so when it's inevitably passed on, people will know who it belongs to.

I have to disagree-even without involving legality.

Just because it is easy to steal something does not mean that it is polite to do so.  It would be really easy to steal my nieghbor's dirt-bike.  He often leaves his garage open, the keys are on his workbench, and I could surely ride it better than he does.  While his doing that makes it tempting for me to take a turn around the block, it would not mean that I wasn't being rude.

I do think that, if you expect your photos not to be copied, posting them on the internet is somewhat akin to leaving your garage door open and your keys on the workbench.  It still isn't polite to steal them...but you are being naive if you think that it won't get stolen eventually.

Well-if your photos are any good.  I don't expect to have that problem with my photos, since I am a terrible photographer (I adore digital-it is so much cheaper to throw away pictures where I have chopped off people's heads now that they are in electronic form rather than on film).   

[auntmeegs]

Legality aside, if you put something up on the internet, even in a restricted setting like FB, you're still essentially sharing it with the world. Any of your FB friends can take it, copy it and repost it anywhere they want to. So if you're not comfortable with your FB stuff being copied and passed along throughout the world, then don't post it at all. I don't think it was rude of family members to do that, but if you're going to keep putting up pictures you have taken, you can add a copyright notice to them to mark them as yours so when it's inevitably passed on, people will know who it belongs to.

I have to disagree-even without involving legality.

Just because it is easy to steal something does not mean that it is polite to do so.  It would be really easy to steal my nieghbor's dirt-bike.  He often leaves his garage open, the keys are on his workbench, and I could surely ride it better than he does.  While his doing that makes it tempting for me to take a turn around the block, it would not mean that I wasn't being rude.

I do think that, if you expect your photos not to be copied, posting them on the internet is somewhat akin to leaving your garage door open and your keys on the workbench.  It still isn't polite to steal them...but you are being naive if you think that it won't get stolen eventually.

Well-if your photos are any good.  I don't expect to have that problem with my photos, since I am a terrible photographer (I adore digital-it is so much cheaper to throw away pictures where I have chopped off people's heads now that they are in electronic form rather than on film).   

I agree in principal, but this is Facebook we're talking about here.  Part of the whole reason for Facebook is sharing photos.  In fact, there is a whole section on a facebook page for "tagged photos" - if one of your friends finds a photo that you are included in on another person's page, they "tag" you in the photo and then that photo is now on your page as well. 

[Bibliophile]

Legality aside, if you put something up on the internet, even in a restricted setting like FB, you're still essentially sharing it with the world. Any of your FB friends can take it, copy it and repost it anywhere they want to. So if you're not comfortable with your FB stuff being copied and passed along throughout the world, then don't post it at all. I don't think it was rude of family members to do that, but if you're going to keep putting up pictures you have taken, you can add a copyright notice to them to mark them as yours so when it's inevitably passed on, people will know who it belongs to.

I have to disagree-even without involving legality.

Just because it is easy to steal something does not mean that it is polite to do so.  It would be really easy to steal my nieghbor's dirt-bike.  He often leaves his garage open, the keys are on his workbench, and I could surely ride it better than he does.  While his doing that makes it tempting for me to take a turn around the block, it would not mean that I wasn't being rude.

I do think that, if you expect your photos not to be copied, posting them on the internet is somewhat akin to leaving your garage door open and your keys on the workbench.  It still isn't polite to steal them...but you are being naive if you think that it won't get stolen eventually.

Well-if your photos are any good.  I don't expect to have that problem with my photos, since I am a terrible photographer (I adore digital-it is so much cheaper to throw away pictures where I have chopped off people's heads now that they are in electronic form rather than on film).   

I agree in principal, but this is Facebook we're talking about here.  Part of the whole reason for Facebook is sharing photos.  In fact, there is a whole section on a facebook page for "tagged photos" - if one of your friends finds a photo that you are included in on another person's page, they "tag" you in the photo and then that photo is now on your page as well. 

Not to mention that whole "share" option...

[Lynnv]

Legality aside, if you put something up on the internet, even in a restricted setting like FB, you're still essentially sharing it with the world. Any of your FB friends can take it, copy it and repost it anywhere they want to. So if you're not comfortable with your FB stuff being copied and passed along throughout the world, then don't post it at all. I don't think it was rude of family members to do that, but if you're going to keep putting up pictures you have taken, you can add a copyright notice to them to mark them as yours so when it's inevitably passed on, people will know who it belongs to.

I have to disagree-even without involving legality.

Just because it is easy to steal something does not mean that it is polite to do so.  It would be really easy to steal my nieghbor's dirt-bike.  He often leaves his garage open, the keys are on his workbench, and I could surely ride it better than he does.  While his doing that makes it tempting for me to take a turn around the block, it would not mean that I wasn't being rude.

I do think that, if you expect your photos not to be copied, posting them on the internet is somewhat akin to leaving your garage door open and your keys on the workbench.  It still isn't polite to steal them...but you are being naive if you think that it won't get stolen eventually.

Well-if your photos are any good.  I don't expect to have that problem with my photos, since I am a terrible photographer (I adore digital-it is so much cheaper to throw away pictures where I have chopped off people's heads now that they are in electronic form rather than on film).  

I agree in principal, but this is Facebook we're talking about here.  Part of the whole reason for Facebook is sharing photos.  In fact, there is a whole section on a facebook page for "tagged photos" - if one of your friends finds a photo that you are included in on another person's page, they "tag" you in the photo and then that photo is now on your page as well.  

Not to mention that whole "share" option...

Allowing people to look (via any means, including sharing it on FB) at my artwork does not imply permission to someone to steal my artwork for their own use.  Outside of the rights that you give up when you agree to FB's T&C, you are not giving up your ownership rights just by allowing people to view your artwork.

I DO agree that putting it out on FB and expecting that it won't get stolen is exceedingly naive.  It will happen.  That is why DH is pretty careful about which artworks he puts out there...and he only puts up pretty low-resolution versions.

That doesn't mean that it isn't stealing....and that doesn't mean that it isn't rude to do so.  I just cannot agree that taking something that someone else owns, without permission, and using it for yourself is polite.

I understand your points about it being very easy to take things from the internet without permission and use them.  I just can't agree that the ease of a theft means that it is okay to do so.

edited because I hit post too soon

[auntmeegs]

I just can't agree that what happened in the OP was rude and I also don't see it as "stealing" in the slightest.  They are family photos, which, IMO are meant to be shared.  
I put up photos of my beloved Dad, who is no longer with us, and ALL of my relatives who have facebook accounts - from siblings to cousins - now have some of these photos on their pages.  Not only do I not feel like they theived them, I am actually thrilled that they, too,  loved my Dad so much to want his photo on their page.  

[Wendy Moira Angela Pan]

I DO agree that putting it out on FB and expecting that it won't get stolen is exceedingly naive.  It will happen.  That is why DH is pretty careful about which artworks he puts out there...and he only puts up pretty low-resolution versions.

That doesn't mean that it isn't stealing....and that doesn't mean that it isn't rude to do so.  I just cannot agree that taking something that someone else owns, without permission, and using it for yourself is polite.
edited because I hit post too soon

I think that if you post photos on Facebook, you are implying that you want your Facebook friends to be able to use them (for private stuff like on their own page or having them printed for a photo album or to hang up in their house). That's kind of the point of Facebook. I'd say it's a good place to post family pictures and pictures of parties and get-togethers. Bad place to post artwork that you don't want other people to use. There are other photosharing sites that are specifically for artists like deviantart.com. But putting a picture on Facebook really implies that it's up for grabs (for private use that is).

Story: One of my friends just gave me a gift of a framed picture of me and my husband that we had taken of ourselves when nobody else was around. I couldn't figure out where he'd gotten it from until I remembered, oh duh! I posted it on Facebook.

[Starchasm]

So Husband posted family photos on his Facebook.  His sister took pictures of her and her parents and posted them to her own page?  And husband didn't even take some of the photos in question?

I just don't see the problem here.  I'd be a little miffed if I wasn't noted as the photographer, but it's possible that she didn't realize he'd taken them.  As for the older pictures, how on earth are those "his"?

I don't think she has to ask for permission to re-post pictures of her parents, or use a photo of herself as her profile pic.

[Aeris]

Legality aside, if you put something up on the internet, even in a restricted setting like FB, you're still essentially sharing it with the world. Any of your FB friends can take it, copy it and repost it anywhere they want to. So if you're not comfortable with your FB stuff being copied and passed along throughout the world, then don't post it at all. I don't think it was rude of family members to do that, but if you're going to keep putting up pictures you have taken, you can add a copyright notice to them to mark them as yours so when it's inevitably passed on, people will know who it belongs to.

I have to disagree-even without involving legality.

Just because it is easy to steal something does not mean that it is polite to do so.  It would be really easy to steal my nieghbor's dirt-bike.  He often leaves his garage open, the keys are on his workbench, and I could surely ride it better than he does.  While his doing that makes it tempting for me to take a turn around the block, it would not mean that I wasn't being rude.

I do think that, if you expect your photos not to be copied, posting them on the internet is somewhat akin to leaving your garage door open and your keys on the workbench.  It still isn't polite to steal them...but you are being naive if you think that it won't get stolen eventually.

Well-if your photos are any good.  I don't expect to have that problem with my photos, since I am a terrible photographer (I adore digital-it is so much cheaper to throw away pictures where I have chopped off people's heads now that they are in electronic form rather than on film).   

But we aren't just talking about the *ease* with which someone can take a photo, but also the expectations within the community of Facebook.

Consider if you moved into a neighborhood where everyone's garages were a sort of 'communal property'. It was just how everyone operated. If Joe's garage door were open, his next-door neighbor Bob would think nothing of wandering over, picking up the keys to the dirtbike, and taking it for a spin. In fact, when Bob returns with the dirtbike, Joe is pulling into the driveway and waves at him, and says 'did you have a good ride?' Most people in the neighborhood operate this way - it's just an unspoken rule. If you leave something in your garage, and the garage door open, you are communicating to the community that you don't mind if they borrow it.

If you move into this neighborhood, with it's rather entrenched expectations, and choose to leave your own dirtbike, with keys in ignition, sitting in your garage with the garage door open - you have to expect that people in the neighborhood will interpret your actions against the community expectations. And if someone borrows your dirtbike in this context, it's a little special snowflake to claim that it's 'stealing', and that you shouldn't have to close your garage door.

Facebook is like this hypothetical community. The expectations of the general Facebook population are that posted pictures are available for consumption. It's not stealing, because there's a sort of cultural agreement that it isn't stealing. It's normal and accepted, in fact, expected. If you don't want to suffer the effects of the community expectations, the burden is on YOU to change.

Close your garage door, and don't post pictures on Facebook.



(Although, I will say that even outside of Facebook, if my brother had an old picture of our deceased parents, and balked at me having my own copy.... I would think him a right selfish git.)