Silence after sending friend an email

[ydpubs]

How is it 'gauche and thoughtless' to think it may be possible that a person would respond differently to a direct request in private by a close friend than they would to a hinted exchange by a near stranger in public? They're completely different circumstances.

I hear 'less close' friends get requests refused all the time by friends that I know would happily respond in the positive to the same request from me. It's not unreasonable at all for the OP to think it was possible she would get a different response than a near stranger in a public gathering.

If the OP had ever heard the friend say "I just don't give that recipe out", as a direct and universal response, then it would be 'gauche and thoughtless'. I told a friend once that we don't let anyone piggyback on our zipcar account for legal reasons - if anyone else asked, after hearing that, I would consider it possibly thoughtless, as I've responded universally. But if I sidestepped a favor-request from not-so-close-friend Mary, that doesn't at all necessarily mean I won't consider the same favor-request from very-close-friend Amy. I certainly wouldn't consider Amy 'gauche and thoughtless' to ask, just because she happened to be in the same room of 20 people when I vaguely sidestepped Mary. Talk about expecting people to read minds.

Precisely, I agree with you Aeris. I knit and have made some hat patterns of my own. If someone I just met asked me to make them one I would probably say no. But a someone I consider a good friend I would say yes.

[BettyDraper]

The implication that someone is not generous because she doesn't wish to dole out the fruits of her own creative labors is somewhat discouraging. 

This is not the case in this situation. She got the recipe from a published book. 

Well, it still took effort on the cupcake-maker's part to locate the recipe, and perhaps she does some creative tweaking.

But even if she buys the cupcakes from local bakeries and transfers them into her own serving dishes it's still rude to put her on the spot when she's clearly signaled in the past that she doesn't welcome cupcake inquiries.  This is one of those threads where it would be really helpful to hear her side of the story.   

Where in the world are you getting that the friend "clearly signaled in the past that she doesn't welcome cupcake inquiries". The OP indicated that the friend responded slightly obliquely when a near stranger hinted at the recipe, and then when complimented and hinted at the friend doesn't leap to in full public view and spout the recipe on the spot.

This hardly qualifies as someone clearly signalling that any and all cupcake inquiries, of any sort, and from any friend, no matter how close, are unwelcome. If I heard my best friend fail to volunteer their recipe to a near stranger's hinting around, I would never dream that meant it was obvious that I, their best friend, would be utterly remiss in making a direct request.

It's a massive leap.

And the fact that the friend directly requests recipes of the OP actually weighs on the side of making it seem like the friend would be amenable to a two-way-recipe-sharing rel@tionship.

The OP was in no way rude to ask for the recipe.

The OP herself said the baker has been coy in the past about the recipe requests.  It's not a massive leap.  Perhaps it wasn't rude to ask for the recipe (that word is bandied around quite a bit here) but it was gauche and thoughtless given what the OP already sensed about the recipe in question. 

How is it 'gauche and thoughtless' to think it may be possible that a person would respond differently to a direct request in private by a close friend than they would to a hinted exchange by a near stranger in public? They're completely different circumstances.

I hear 'less close' friends get requests refused all the time by friends that I know would happily respond in the positive to the same request from me. It's not unreasonable at all for the OP to think it was possible she would get a different response than a near stranger in a public gathering.

If the OP had ever heard the friend say "I just don't give that recipe out", as a direct and universal response, then it would be 'gauche and thoughtless'. I told a friend once that we don't let anyone piggyback on our zipcar account for legal reasons - if anyone else asked, after hearing that, I would consider it possibly thoughtless, as I've responded universally. But if I sidestepped a favor-request from not-so-close-friend Mary, that doesn't at all necessarily mean I won't consider the same favor-request from very-close-friend Amy. I certainly wouldn't consider Amy 'gauche and thoughtless' to ask, just because she happened to be in the same room of 20 people when I vaguely sidestepped Mary. Talk about expecting people to read minds.

Well, clearly the OP doesn't have the cupcake recipe in hand, so the baker may characterize their relationship as other than very-close-friend.  Failing to pick up on such hints and nuances is gauche.  No one is expected to be a mind-reader but non-verbal communication is a fact of life. 

And speaking of communication the tone of the thread was initiated with the "recipe grinch" cast in a pejorative light from the get-go as the person giving the "silent treatment."  Not "How might I politely request recipe from talented baker?" or "What to do if I have overstepped boundaries with close friend?" That says a lot about the relationship.

[Katelyn]

I'm asking if she's a generous person, in general.  Other than the recipe thing, does she seem to be a generous person?

Unfortunately, I am not the best person to ask.  I think she is a great friend, but possibly not one who wants to share her recipes.

I have been repeatedly advised by other close friends that I am *too* generous, and they have pulled me aside on several occasions and warned me that in their opinion, I am being taken for a ride    or that I am setting myself up for disappointment about reciprocity.  I love to share recipes, pass things on that I no longer use, offer to help with housework / cooking / babysitting if I see a need and so on.  I am a helper and organiser by nature.  (Do not ask me to do math, public speaking or get involved in sport)  Are my expectations maybe a little high as a result?  Very possibly.

I think she is a kind and thoughtful person.  She liked to make batches of cupcakes and bring them along to social circle events.  She made me a batch when baby #2 arrived and that felt wonderful.  She passed on a couple of small baby things she no longer needed and that was very helpful.

I understand that everyone is different and that others have tighter boundaries on their sharing and helping than I do.  And on occasion I have been quite disappointed to find that when I need some help with something, those that I have been very generous to are nowhere to be found.  It is sobering to discover that your beliefs in sowing and reaping / karma / treat others how you would like to be treated / whatever you would like to call it are on shaky ground.

I want to believe the best in people.  But I have been hurt many times before.

[DottyG]

I want to believe the best in people.  But I have been hurt many times before.

Trust me.  You and I are more alike than you may realize.

[Katelyn]

And speaking of communication the tone of the thread was initiated with the "recipe grinch" cast in a pejorative light from the get-go as the person giving the "silent treatment."  Not "How might I politely request recipe from talented baker?" or "What to do if I have overstepped boundaries with close friend?" That says a lot about the rel@tionship.

I have already apologised and explained the grinch term. 

The silent treatment is increasingly looking like the way it is. 

I'm not sure if you are on facebook, but when someone regularly plays one of the games/applications on facebook, there is often a record of it on the news feed that everyone who is friends with that person can see.  For example:

Jane Smith is playing Farmville and has found a hen in her yard.
Jane Smith is playing Farmville and has adoped a new goat.
Jane Smith is playing Farmville and is mowing the lawn.
etc etc.

Given that there are half a dozen different entries for her playing the game - each a separate occasion that she is playing this game since my email - I am left with little else but to believe that she would rather play a computer game than send a quick one liner response to my email.  Whatever her reason, it is hurtful, and feels very much like the silent treatment.

[KenveeB]

Well, clearly the OP doesn't have the cupcake recipe in hand, so the baker may characterize their rel@tionship as other than very-close-friend.  Failing to pick up on such hints and nuances is gauche.  No one is expected to be a mind-reader but non-verbal communication is a fact of life. 

And speaking of communication the tone of the thread was initiated with the "recipe grinch" cast in a pejorative light from the get-go as the person giving the "silent treatment."  Not "How might I politely request recipe from talented baker?" or "What to do if I have overstepped boundaries with close friend?" That says a lot about the rel@tionship.

Non-verbal communication may be a fact of life, but there are also many levels of explicitness in it.  It is fully possible to be oblique enough, whether verbally or non-verbally, that people around you don't understand.  When that happens, the failure is in your communication skills.  A number of people on this thread have said that they wouldn't have understood what Friend did as clearly communicating that she never shares this recipe with anyone, and in fact have pointed to many other "hints and nuances" that indicated Friend might have ben willing to share it with OP.  If Friend really doesn't want to share her recipe but is too paralyzed to actually say no when asked, then she needs to learn to more clearly communicate that.  Blaming OP for not knowing in this case is expecting her to read minds, because there were many possible interpretations of Friend's behavior.

And if Friend was completely ignoring OP's entire email when they've been regularly communicating otherwise, I don't see how "silent treatment" is such a perjorative description.  Clearly OP isn't going to title the thread "how to ask for a recipe" when she's already asked for the recipe.  And if I had a friend completely ignoring me over a normal request, I wouldn't be worried about me having "overstepped boundaries".

I agree with a PP that people seem to be having a very visceral reaction to the word "grinch".  I've always seen it as a mild term for someone raining on your parade.  People seem to be really piling on the OP for using it.

[Roe]

And speaking of communication the tone of the thread was initiated with the "recipe grinch" cast in a pejorative light from the get-go as the person giving the "silent treatment."  Not "How might I politely request recipe from talented baker?" or "What to do if I have overstepped boundaries with close friend?" That says a lot about the rel@tionship.

I have already apologised and explained the grinch term.  

Yes you have CoffeKat and I really don't think we need to keep bringing that up.

[Tai]

I will be the person that points out that not everyone *sees* the inbox at the top of facebook- I don't.  I went looking for it after reading this thread- and found that I missed a facebook email from 3 months ago.  OOPS!  

And yes, I play farmville and cafeville and mafiaville pretty much every day- but I missed the email.  I also haven't checked my "regular" email in about a week- certain emails go directly to my phone, but nobody gets that address- they get my "regular" email. 

[BettyDraper]

My point was, the whole focus of this thread seems to be the effect on you.  You don't seem to be concerned that your friend may be fed up and/or offended, and when that's been suggested to you -- or even when people suggest she's just busy -- you still look for reasons to put the onus back upon her.  And subtly imply that perhaps she isn't the generous, giving person you thought she was, according to your standards which seem to be oriented around material exchanges and favors rather than a shared philosophy or other bases for friendship.

Monitoring her Facebook usage and making judgments about it?  I have 838 messages in my inbox as I type here.  Most are reminders, list-serv feeds, notes to myself and minutia, but about a dozen require long, chatty responses.  One is from a college roommate of nearly 30 years friendship, another is from a man I worked with 15 years ago and a third is from a close friend featuring video of her six-month-old.  I also owe snail mail letters to two other friends and various courtesy "Happy New Year" e-mails to fond acquaintances.  Just not in the mood to type them all up yet, but it's no reflection on the relationships. And it doesn't mean I can't poke around on eHell, organize some photos, check some financial Web sites, print a few coupons and do other no-brainer computer tasks while I watch the news.

[Fluffy Cat]

And speaking of communication the tone of the thread was initiated with the "recipe grinch" cast in a pejorative light from the get-go as the person giving the "silent treatment."  Not "How might I politely request recipe from talented baker?" or "What to do if I have overstepped boundaries with close friend?" That says a lot about the rel@tionship.

I have already apologised and explained the grinch term.  

The silent treatment is increasingly looking like the way it is.  

I'm not sure if you are on facebook, but when someone regularly plays one of the games/applications on facebook, there is often a record of it on the news feed that everyone who is friends with that person can see.  For example:

Jane Smith is playing Farmville and has found a hen in her yard.
Jane Smith is playing Farmville and has adoped a new goat.
Jane Smith is playing Farmville and is mowing the lawn.
etc etc.

Given that there are half a dozen different entries for her playing the game - each a separate occasion that she is playing this game since my email - I am left with little else but to believe that she would rather play a computer game than send a quick one liner response to my email.  Whatever her reason, it is hurtful, and feels very much like the silent treatment.

To be honest, I frequently used to hop into a facebook game, usually very late at night, for the purpose of not having my entire farmville field spoiled, fish die, etc. and not bothered to respond to facebook requests/emails/comments.  I've done this several days in a row even.  I have let non-urgent (and in my case everything on facebook email is non-urgent since anyone else who would require emergency/important assistance - not cupcakes, etc. - has my regular email or more importantly my phone number) sit for a week or two without reply.  This may just come down to a difference in facebook usage standards.

You are not rude for asking.  But, considering this is facebook, and all the reasons for a legitimate non-response, I'm not willing to declare your friend rude either.  This (the overall thread, not just the OP) seems like much ado about nothing to me at this point.  YMMV, IMHO, so forth, and so forth.

OP, I do wish you luck as truly excellent cupcakes are hard to come by. As to PP's and in regards to myself this is starting to seem a bit like a rehash of the other thread to me and maybe it would be best left alone until an update from the OP with new information*.  

*This is only what I plan to do, excepting responses to me directly, and not meant to be an edict or judgement toward everyone else; just a suggestion.

[Katelyn]

My point was, the whole focus of this thread seems to be the effect on you.  You don't seem to be concerned that your friend may be fed up and/or offended, and when that's been suggested to you -- or even when people suggest she's just busy -- you still look for reasons to put the onus back upon her.  And subtly imply that perhaps she isn't the generous, giving person you thought she was, according to your standards which seem to be oriented around material exchanges and favors rather than a shared philosophy or other bases for friendship.

We are friends in a particular social circle because of a shared religious philosophy, because we are both SAHMs and we also both like cooking / baking.  Yes, I do believe the physical material exchanges are important, as it spells out that you love and support the person in action, not just theory.

Monitoring her Facebook usage and making judgments about it?  

Not monitoring in the sense that I am checking up on her.  The updates are there when I am on facebook for myself, and reading the updates and entries for other friends.  And as facebook email is the way we have primarily communicated when not in person, this is where I would be checking for a reply.

I feel that I am increasingly being put on the defensive here when I genuinely care for this friend and am confused at the silence to my email.  I think it is best if we leave it here.  I will update if I receive a response to my email.  Thanks everyone for your input.

[baglady]

I don't know if this will help, but I believe in karma and have found it works in mysterious ways. It's not always "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours." Sometimes it's "You scratch my back and karma will send you someone to scratch yours." Or "You scratch my back and I'll rub your feet." Sometimes the person you do good for won't reciprocate in kind, but you will get reciprocation.

Example: I helped "Nancy" move. She is disabled. When I moved, she didn't offer the same toting and carrying help I gave her, because she can't. But she introduced me to her son's best friend, who did help. And she made a salad to go with the pizza I provided for the helpers.

A kind gesture to Person A will not necessarily get you the same kind gesture back from her. But because you have put your good karma out there, along will come Person B to give you just what you need. (e.g., you baby-sit Susie's kids but she can't watch yours because she has two jobs or a sick parent. But because you are kind to Susie, you have Judy in your life, who is frequently willing to watch your kids). Maybe the baking hints that have been posted in this thread are your karmic payback for your own generosity in sharing recipes.

Personally, I wouldn't drop cupcake lady as a friend over this. It's just a recipe. I understand that you are frustrated at the lack of a response, but I would just chalk it up to "people are funny about some things" and either let the friendship die a natural death, if that's what's meant to be with her move away, or accept the good things she does bring to your life, sans recipe sharing.

[Addy]

Add me to the list of people who don't notice emails on facebook. Also, while I don't play Farmville, I am a big fan of another game which I have bookmarked. So when I play I go directly to the game. My wall will say that I'm playing, but I'm not really on facebook at all. Does Farmville work the same way?

OP, if I were you I think I'd just pick up the phone and give her a call.

[Hanna]

My point was, the whole focus of this thread seems to be the effect on you.  You don't seem to be concerned that your friend may be fed up and/or offended, and when that's been suggested to you -- or even when people suggest she's just busy -- you still look for reasons to put the onus back upon her.  And subtly imply that perhaps she isn't the generous, giving person you thought she was, according to your standards which seem to be oriented around material exchanges and favors rather than a shared philosophy or other bases for friendship.

Monitoring her Facebook usage and making judgments about it?  I have 838 messages in my inbox as I type here.  Most are reminders, list-serv feeds, notes to myself and minutia, but about a dozen require long, chatty responses.  One is from a college roommate of nearly 30 years friendship, another is from a man I worked with 15 years ago and a third is from a close friend featuring video of her six-month-old.  I also owe snail mail letters to two other friends and various courtesy "Happy New Year" e-mails to fond acquaintances.  Just not in the mood to type them all up yet, but it's no reflection on the rel@tionships. And it doesn't mean I can't poke around on eHell, organize some photos, check some financial Web sites, print a few coupons and do other no-brainer computer tasks while I watch the news.

I was thinking exactly the same thing.  I have unanswered PMs here. I promise I am not giving anyone the silent treatement.

I have many extremely nice and polite friends but each of us occassionally neglects to respond promptly (or at all) to an email.  Is that really cause to cool off a close friendship?

And in the few instances when I have asked someone a favor and they either say no or don't respond, I figure I overstepped a boundary.  *All recipes are not equal, and this one is clearly special to her.  It isn't as if one friend once loaned $5 and is now asking for a $5 loan.

*After the thread about someone's signature dish appearing at all potlucks after they shared the recipe, it is understandable that one would want to guard the method for preparing their best dessert even after they were no longer in town.  Having someone else begin providing the dessert brings all kinds of potential issues.

[Miss Charlotte]

Regarding the ignoring, it may be that she's deliberately not responding, and hoping when she does get back to you, that you'll drop the matter.  Rude, yes, but before I joined eHell, I would have done this in an effort to avoid telling someone something unpleasant.  I truly hated disappointing someone or risking confrontation that much.

I think this is the case too. I was also the same way before ehell, if I didn't know how to deal with something that made me uncomfortable, I'd ignore it and hope it would go away. I'm sure Cupcake Lady is very fond of you and values your friendship. For whatever reason, she doesn't want to share her recipe and doesn't want to be "mean" or deal with any fallout from outright saying "no."

Also, it is possible that the cupcakes are in fact her own creation, and she was too modest to take credit for it, or wanted to deflect recipe requests by saying it was from another source.