Privacy between a teen and a minister

[MummyPumpkin83]

This is something that happend when I was a teen (so over 10 years ago). I will give updates as we go I would just like some feedback...

Boyfriend and I were in our last year of highschool (year 12) both aged 17. We decided to get "unofficially" engaged - ie he didn't ask my parents, but did buy a ring, more of a "promise to get engaged when we are 18". The youth/assistant minister at our church (who ran the youth group) found out about this and sat down with us to talk about the "big decision" we were making.

One of the things he asked was if our rel@tionship was "physical" our teenage "guilty look at each other without saying anything" was taken as a yes (which was true). His response "right. Well that has to stop"

The next week at youth group I was there, boyfirend was not and the minister followed up asking if we had stopped playing scrabble (is that how you guys put it here? ). Which we hadn't.

questions:
1. was this an appropriate question / response from the minister?
2. What should minister do with this information? Tell parents, keep it to himself, tell head minister to get advice...? (keep in mind the legal age for scrabble playing is 16 and this is therefore not a legal question)
3. do the teens have a reasonable expectation this this information will be kept private?
4. What would you want as the parent/s of the teen/s involved?

[marcel]

1. Normally I would not consider it an appropriate question, but considering that he was your minister I do believe it was an apropriate question and response.
I believe it is ok for the minister to try to get you to stop. Personally, I believe it is fine for 17 year olds to do this, so I would not try to get you to stop. But he was a minister, and according to his and your faith you had sinned, and intended to sin again, it is his job to stop you from doing this.
2. I do believe that he has a professional responsibility to keep this information to himself.
3. This means that the teens can reasonably expect that he keeps it private.
4. I can't imagine being a parent, but I guess I would like to know, but only if my kids told me. I would not be happy if the minister told me this.

[Tam]

I think that the minister is there for spiritual *guidance*, as in, not there to make your decisions for you but rather guide you in making the correct ones.  For this reason, I think the repeated questioning was inappropriate.  While I would be uncomfortable the first time he asked, I would say that the knowledge may help shape his advices to you.  The follow-up was inappropriate.

I think that the teens are right to expect that the information is kept confidential, as again, the minister should be guiding the teens and not using the information for any other purpose.  As a parent, I think I would want to know, however I do not think that the information should be coming from the minister.

[LifeOnPluto]

1) If your religion is on that forbids pre-marital "scrabble", then I think the Minister's response was entirely appropriate. As for the follow-up question, I'm kind of torn on that one. As a side note, I sincerely hope he didn't ask you the follow-up question in public!

2) If the age of consent is 16, I don't think it's appropriate for the Minister to tell your parents. Especially since this information was told to him in confidence. I think it's ok for him to ask other Ministers for advice on how to handle the situation though.

3) Yes, I think you and your boyfriend were reasonable in expecting the info to be kept private.

4) If I were a parent of a teen who was over the age of consent, I'd feel angry on their behalf that the Minister had betrayed their trust and revealed the information to other people (even if that other person was me). However, I am not a parent, nor am I particularly religious. Other posters may have different opinions on this.

[Lisbeth]

1.  I'm sort of torn on this one.  On the one hand, yes, the minister did have the, shall we say, religious right to inquire, but on the other hand, given that you didn't volunteer this information, I think he should have left it alone and not used it as a chance to lecture you about it.  The "that has to stop" really is none of his business, especially if you are planning to marry anyway.

2.  Well, I think that he needs to keep it confidential, just like any other professional who learned something in confidence.

3.  Yes, but given how this minister operates, I have to admit that I doubt it will happen.

4.  I'd want to know, but not from anyone other than the two principals.

[HonorH]

I'll answer for my religion:

1. Yes, he had every right to ask.  Yes, he had every right to follow up.  If he's a spiritual mentor, in fact, it's his responsibility to advise you as to the standards of your faith and to hold you accountable.

2. If you're over the age of consent and he doesn't suspect abuse in the relationship, whatever is said should be kept confidential.

3. Yes, absolutely.

4. I'd just be glad there was a good, uncompromising spiritual mentor in your lives.

That's my mileage on this one.  I know those outside my tradition will see this as being none of his business, but in my religious tradition, it *is* his business, quite literally.  Ministers aren't there to make you comfortable; they're there to assist you in keeping your life in line with your faith.  For a youth minister in my tradition to shrug and say, "Well, it's their business," upon finding out a couple of the kids in his youth group were playing scrabble would be considered downright neglectful.

[MaggieB]

I had a long reply typed out, but I pretty much agree 100% with HonorH.  At least that's how my church works.

[Kaylee]

I'm not religious at all, so I'm going to answer based on what I do know (which is counselling teenagers as a medical practitioner).

Inquiring is definitely appropriate, and so is follow-up.  But it doesn't sound like this person did either in an especially appropriate manner.  "Right, well, that has to stop" doesn't sound like a particularly good way to guide a teen, or to get them to either think about what decisions they may be making or to get them to think differently.  Maybe it was done in a jocular manner, but it doesn't really read that way.

My personal belief is that those in the ministry should really hold to the same standards I do, which is that matters a teen brings to me stay private unless I believe they are going to hurt themselves or someone else (and I don't mean by soft standards such as 'I believe having sex is hurting you').  I also think that however you look at that question ethically, your chances of actually being able to help go up immeasurably if the teens trust you, which they wouldn't if they think you're automatically going to tell their parents.  (This doesn't mean that you can't ask if it's all right to tell their parents.  Some of them actually wish you would.)  However, I don't speak for any religion.  It just makes sense to me, that if you're going to ask for confidences, that you be willing to respect them.

I'm not a parent.  However, I doubt I would take well to hearing this news from anyone other than the principals involved.

[MrsJWine]

I think this depends entirely on the religion and denomination, so it's very hard to give a broad answer.

I'll answer for mine:

1)  Yes.  His job--not just what he's paid for, but his mandate, spiritually speaking,--is to do this.  He's not just a teacher or mentor.  He has a duty to confront the members of his church when they do something our religion says is wrong.  He does this out of love and concern for the members' spiritual well-being, not just because he's in the mood to be nosy and intrusive or tyrannical.

2)  Our church--many churches do, actually--has a very well-defined approach for this:  confront in person, privately, then bring in someone else (not just any random person, of course; it's not a gossip session), then to the rest of people in the church who are in authority to take disciplinary action.  I think that in the case of people who are still under their parents' authority (minors living at home, in other words), he would have the right to make them part of that process.  I think the alternative--to have them find out only once the final step of disciplinary action was taken--would be far worse.

3)  This is a tricky one.  There's the case of people who are trying to change behavior but working against very strong desires and temptations.  I think in that case, he should be discreet about it for a time and attempt to help them change.  I think he should lean on them heavily to tell their parents, as they're also the spiritual leaders of their families (assuming the parents are part of the same church).  Then there are cases where they have no intention of changing behavior, in which case, in our church, our pastor would have a duty to continue the process.

4)  I would absolutely want to know at some point, but I'd rather hear it from my own kid.  I would definitely NOT want to find out only when disciplinary action had been taken.

All that said, when you become a member of our church, you know that the pastor and elders do have these responsibilities.  If church discipline takes place, it's no surprise, as it's always at the end of this process.  It rarely comes to that anyway.  People either decide they don't subscribe to those beliefs anymore and leave on their own, or they stop what they're doing.

[MrsJWine]

Inquiring is definitely appropriate, and so is follow-up.  But it doesn't sound like this person did either in an especially appropriate manner.  "Right, well, that has to stop" doesn't sound like a particularly good way to guide a teen, or to get them to either think about what decisions they may be making or to get them to think differently.  Maybe it was done in a jocular manner, but it doesn't really read that way.

I agree with this.  Pastors aren't there just to tell you what not to do and punish you when you disobey (sadly, I think this is what happens all to often).  They're there to help you adhere to your religion *especially* when it's most difficult.

[Onyx_TKD]

All that said, when you become a member of our church, you know that the pastor and elders do have these responsibilities.  If church discipline takes place, it's no surprise, as it's always at the end of this process.  It rarely comes to that anyway.  People either decide they don't subscribe to those beliefs anymore and leave on their own, or they stop what they're doing.

You say "when you become a member," but I'm guessing these teens were likely "born into" the church (i.e. their parents were part of the church). Does your church have some kind of "confirmation" process for kids raised in the church that makes sure they learn all the things that someone joining as an adult would know? Then 17-year-olds would already know that if they talked to the pastor, this is what would happen?

[magician5]

Our church--many churches do, actually--has a very well-defined approach for this:  confront in person, privately, then bring in someone else (not just any random person, of course; it's not a gossip session), then to the rest of people in the church who are in authority to take disciplinary action.  I think that in the case of people who are still under their parents' authority (minors living at home, in other words), he would have the right to make them part of that process.  I think the alternative--to have them find out only once the final step of disciplinary action was taken--would be far worse.

That seems unforgivably intrusive to me.

If I'm reading into this the faith I think it is, what you describe may well be the expected process for that faith.

But what I'd expect from a spiritual leader is guidance, and certainly not a "gotcha". If I had to live in a spiritual community where my every action was scrutinized to see if I needed to be "disciplined"...

Of course, the central issue the OP has posed is what should be done when the parties in question are 17? I believe a wise pastor would first think "Well, there's 17, and then again there's 17. What sort of not-really-kids are these individual 17-year-olds?" Some people at that age are not going to let their entire lives fall apart in a morally "iffy" situation and can accept a gentle word of guidance, other 17-year-olds are complete idiots and will need a firmer approach.

Should the parents be told? At 17, I'm not quite sure the parents or anybody else ought to be (metaphorically) peeping into someone's bedroom.

[Twik]

First of all, I don't think 17 year olds living at home are entitled to say "My sex life is my own business, and my parents have nothing to say about it." You want to take that approach, move out, get a job, and support yourself. You want your parents to support you? You accept that your parents have a right and responsibility to know about something that can lead to pregnancy, disease or other crises.

And if you want to follow a faith, you have to make at least a good-faith (pardon the pun) attempt to comply with its tenets. A church youth group is not simply a social club - it is a group devoted to growth within a specific moral and spiritual framework. If the OP and her boyfriend didn't accept this framework, they were, I'm sure, free to find some other way to spend their time, but if you are a member of a church, you should be at least be trying to follow these teachings. If you don't think they are valid, find a different faith.

It sounds like the minister was rather ham-handed in his approach, but I don't think that he should be expected to ignore that his charges were doing something that his faith considers to be wrong.

[Swimmer_Heather]

1. I'll go the opposite way from the other posters and say, no, this was not an appropriate question and follow-up from the minister.  "The youth/assistant minister at our church..found out about this and sat down with us": this sounds like the couple did not initiate this conversation at all, and then the minister asks a very intimate question and makes an interesting assumption.  I think if the couple had first requested the minister to counsel them, that would make the question more appropriate, but in this case I'm somewhat skeeved out by the minister's intrusion.  I am familiar with churches with this view on pre-marital activities, but I still don't like that the minister put this couple in discomfort.

2. The minister should keep this information quiet.  Religious confessions are bound by privacy; some religions have more formal traditions than others about confessions, but there is an assumption of religious privacy that even carries over into...a context not discussed on this board.  I think it would be fine for the minister to discuss the issue with the head minister or a church governing body, but the minister should try to anonymise the couple as much as possible.  Eg. the minister might want to ask this same question, or ask for general advice on how to best spiritually advise a young couple in these circumstances.  I don't think the parents should be told.  The act is legal and the couple should have their privacy.

3. Yes, I would certainly expect anything I told to a spiritual advisor to be kept quiet unless I gave permission or made it clear it was no secret.  I'd stop going to a spiritual advisor immediately if I found they had shared my personal information.

4. As the parent/s of the teens involved, of course I would want to know, I think most parents would.   But I would *not* want the minister to break my teen's confidence unless in the case of real physical danger and I would change ministers if they did so, so I wouldn't be upset at the minister not informing me.

[JoanOfArc]

1.  I don't think the minister went about this question in the right way.  Now, he may feel he has a 'spiritual mandate' to ask about such things, but the way he put doesn't sound helpful, it sounds judgmental.  I think he would have done better to deal with it in a different way. 

2 and 3. The minister has a duty to keep confidential the information he obtains in counseling sessions.  Even if they are minors.  The only exception to this is a direct threat of harm to self or others, which is clearly not the case here. 

4.  I'm nowhere near a parent, but I think by the age of 17, parents have to trust their teen and let them have their secrets.  Of course, I would hope that, when I am a parent, that my kid would tell me about their life, but by 17 either they will or they won't.  Learning about a teen's private life from a third party isn't going to help the relationship much.