Author Topic: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74  (Read 1332593 times)

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iridaceae

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5085 on: December 17, 2013, 03:18:32 AM »
Actually, I don't. Presumably he's not the only person who can cook there, so why can't someone else take over for the day? He asked for his kid's FIRST Christmas off, not the next 18! Sure, being in the service industry means not getting EVERY holiday off, but it doesn't mean NEVER getting holidays off. There's usually some give-and-take. So he gets Christmas off but has to work on Other Holiday so Other Cook works on Christmas but has Other Holiday off. No big deal. Maybe Chef has to do some extra prep work Christmas Eve to make sure everything's ready to go for Christmas. OK.

Having a child does not automatically mean that everyone acquiesces to your wants wishes and desires. Maybe Other Chef just had a kid too. Then what?

Iris

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5086 on: December 17, 2013, 04:22:19 AM »
Actually, I don't. Presumably he's not the only person who can cook there, so why can't someone else take over for the day? He asked for his kid's FIRST Christmas off, not the next 18! Sure, being in the service industry means not getting EVERY holiday off, but it doesn't mean NEVER getting holidays off. There's usually some give-and-take. So he gets Christmas off but has to work on Other Holiday so Other Cook works on Christmas but has Other Holiday off. No big deal. Maybe Chef has to do some extra prep work Christmas Eve to make sure everything's ready to go for Christmas. OK.

Having a child does not automatically mean that everyone acquiesces to your wants wishes and desires. Maybe Other Chef just had a kid too. Then what?

And maybe another chef doesn't celebrate Christmas, and maybe another chef moonlights as a priest, and maybe another chef only works on holidays containing an "e".

Sorry to single you out iridaceae, that is not my intention, but the venom against this chef in several posts is honestly surprising me. In my experience when it comes to swapping shifts there is literally no harm in asking provided you are willing to take no for an answer. If another chef has had a baby then they say "Dude, are you kidding me? I just had a baby too! No way!" Frankly, if he had asked someone else who just had a baby I would agree that is an SS action and highly likely to lead to unpopularity in the work place.

However the story as we currently know it is 1. He ASKED for Christmas off. 2. He was fired. 3. He (very unprofessionally) hijacked the restaurant's Twitter feed to announce his departure and the reason why. I will admit that number 3 inclines me to think that the fault was probably on his side and there is undoubtedly more to the firing than meets the eye, but I think we can safely assume that he didn't ask for the next 18 Christmases off all at once.

Seriously, DH has swapped shifts to attend children's birthday parties, he has also swapped shifts for other people so they can go to a Bachelor party, or on a fishing weekend, or to a wedding, or just out drinking with their friends. As a general rule what goes around comes around and a lot of it is based on good will. So a single person may agree to work Christmas day in order to have a family man cover his New Year's Eve (or morning after  ;)) shift. Families do not have a monopoly on wanting special times off nor is it any more entitled to ask for time off for one reason than another.
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jedikaiti

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5087 on: December 17, 2013, 04:34:32 AM »
Actually, I don't. Presumably he's not the only person who can cook there, so why can't someone else take over for the day? He asked for his kid's FIRST Christmas off, not the next 18! Sure, being in the service industry means not getting EVERY holiday off, but it doesn't mean NEVER getting holidays off. There's usually some give-and-take. So he gets Christmas off but has to work on Other Holiday so Other Cook works on Christmas but has Other Holiday off. No big deal. Maybe Chef has to do some extra prep work Christmas Eve to make sure everything's ready to go for Christmas. OK.

Having a child does not automatically mean that everyone acquiesces to your wants wishes and desires. Maybe Other Chef just had a kid too. Then what?

Then negotiate. I'm just saying that firing someone for ASKING is not a good thing, and that there is a high probability of more backstory here. And that just asking is not necessarily PD or SS - but that hijacking your former employer's Twitter account as an act of revenge is both.
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iridaceae

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5088 on: December 17, 2013, 04:43:08 AM »
I have zero sympathy for the man. None. He played the "but...baby!" card and lost. That led to his getting fired somehow and he went on Twitter to whine. Lots of people with babies don't get holidays off. Lots of people learn to deal with it or get jobs that don't require working holidays.

I'd never hire the man. He'll undoubtably pull the "but...baby!" excuse every chance he gets. A lifetime of the service industry has left me sympathyless for the "but....baby!" faction.

We have just about every member of the front desk staff right now demandinv to have Christmas Day off. Including those who have had Thanksgiving and Labor Day and the Fourth off. When it got pointed out ( not by me; this has nothing to do with my shift) that they have had family holidays and it's someone else's turn they get (I am told) very "but MY family is important. The other front desk staff can celebrate the next day".

perpetua

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5089 on: December 17, 2013, 05:31:07 AM »
I think there's probably more to the story than meets the eye, mostly because this happened in the UK and we have employment laws here that prevent people from being fired for spurious reasons ('at will employment' isn't a thing here, as far as I'm aware).

That's not to say the employer *didn't* fire him simply for asking, of course, in which case the chap would have a very good case for unfair dismissal. If they *did* fire him simply for asking then I'm totally on his side, because they'd be in the wrong. Some employers really are that clueless.

He probably hasn't done himself any favours by his actions post dismissal, though.

Margo

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5090 on: December 17, 2013, 06:11:19 AM »
I wonder if the chef is going to be using that excuse every Christmas for the next 18 years. "But I have a daughter!" Drives me crazy. We have people here who demand the big 3 off because THEY have family. As if the rest of us do not.

Yes, I have to admit, I think that the fault lies more with the chef here. Unless the restaurant closes on Christmas Day, I would expect that *someone* will have to work it, and as SoCalVal says, it's the nature of the industry. If he wants holidays off, he should look at doing office work or something.

Actually, I don't. Presumably he's not the only person who can cook there, so why can't someone else take over for the day? He asked for his kid's FIRST Christmas off, not the next 18! Sure, being in the service industry means not getting EVERY holiday off, but it doesn't mean NEVER getting holidays off. There's usually some give-and-take. So he gets Christmas off but has to work on Other Holiday so Other Cook works on Christmas but has Other Holiday off. No big deal. Maybe Chef has to do some extra prep work Christmas Eve to make sure everything's ready to go for Christmas. OK.

Either the pub's nuts for firing him for ASKING for the day off, or there's more backstory, like a history of SS requests.

I also think there's a backstory missing without which I can't make a true decision about the matter.
Maybe the chef has been working every Holiday for the last ten years, always getting short changed or willingly taking the shifts so that colleagues who already have a family could spend it with them. Maybe he has to pull more than his weight, has had to make concessions thinking that his boss held him in more esteem and it could one day be redeemed (like asking for one day off now and again.)

There must be more than one chef or at least more than one person that can cook, maybe chef N2 is a lazy one, or has less seniority, or is a family-less Jewish immigrant so chef n1 feels it's really unfair that he's the one who has to give up Christmas...

And then again maybe chef N1 is the lazy one always asking and getting off time and benefits while others have to work his load.

The situations are really too different and would always color ones answer to the problem.

According to a further story I've seen, the pub owners have now said that he was only taken on in October this year, and it was made clear to him at the start that he would have to work Sundays and Christmas. I suspect that this is true - it isn't easy to sack people here, once they have been in a job for 2+ years

ladyknight1

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5091 on: December 17, 2013, 08:19:45 AM »
Actually, I don't. Presumably he's not the only person who can cook there, so why can't someone else take over for the day? He asked for his kid's FIRST Christmas off, not the next 18! Sure, being in the service industry means not getting EVERY holiday off, but it doesn't mean NEVER getting holidays off. There's usually some give-and-take. So he gets Christmas off but has to work on Other Holiday so Other Cook works on Christmas but has Other Holiday off. No big deal. Maybe Chef has to do some extra prep work Christmas Eve to make sure everything's ready to go for Christmas. OK.

Having a child does not automatically mean that everyone acquiesces to your wants wishes and desires. Maybe Other Chef just had a kid too. Then what?

And maybe another chef doesn't celebrate Christmas, and maybe another chef moonlights as a priest, and maybe another chef only works on holidays containing an "e".

Sorry to single you out iridaceae, that is not my intention, but the venom against this chef in several posts is honestly surprising me. In my experience when it comes to swapping shifts there is literally no harm in asking provided you are willing to take no for an answer. If another chef has had a baby then they say "Dude, are you kidding me? I just had a baby too! No way!" Frankly, if he had asked someone else who just had a baby I would agree that is an SS action and highly likely to lead to unpopularity in the work place.

However the story as we currently know it is 1. He ASKED for Christmas off. 2. He was fired. 3. He (very unprofessionally) hijacked the restaurant's Twitter feed to announce his departure and the reason why. I will admit that number 3 inclines me to think that the fault was probably on his side and there is undoubtedly more to the firing than meets the eye, but I think we can safely assume that he didn't ask for the next 18 Christmases off all at once.

Seriously, DH has swapped shifts to attend children's birthday parties, he has also swapped shifts for other people so they can go to a Bachelor party, or on a fishing weekend, or to a wedding, or just out drinking with their friends. As a general rule what goes around comes around and a lot of it is based on good will. So a single person may agree to work Christmas day in order to have a family man cover his New Year's Eve (or morning after  ;)) shift. Families do not have a monopoly on wanting special times off nor is it any more entitled to ask for time off for one reason than another.

POD. There are many reasons that people ask a holiday off for. The venom against this man because he wants to be off to be with his child is surprising me. The reasoning behind why he asked off for Christmas shouldn't matter at all.

Fi

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5092 on: December 17, 2013, 08:30:54 AM »
The pub is telling a very different story. He was hired in October and working Christmas and Sindays was part of the conditions when he was offered the job.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/10520543/Sacked-chef-hit-back-at-ex-employer-on-Twitter.html

perpetua

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5093 on: December 17, 2013, 08:57:37 AM »
The pub is telling a very different story. He was hired in October and working Christmas and Sindays was part of the conditions when he was offered the job.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/10520543/Sacked-chef-hit-back-at-ex-employer-on-Twitter.html

I see their point of view about working Christmas, if he was specifically told he had to work Xmas day this year. However, he asked for a weekend off during December. The terms of his employment being 'must work Sundays' surely can't mean he must work *every single Sunday*, in the same way that 'your hours are Monday to Friday' doesn't mean you can never take a day's leave between Monday and Friday. So I'm finding all the 'he knew he'd have to work Sundays and it's his own hard luck' posts a little harsh. He's entitled to ask for a day's leave. That's why we have annual leave (and our annual leave policies over here are generally more generous than they are for you guys, we tend to get more days than you, and that's worth bearing in mind too).

If, on the other hand, he was told 'No annual leave at all during December' at the outset, then he's outta luck.


Fi

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5094 on: December 17, 2013, 09:03:55 AM »
I'm in the UK too, and I strongly suspect that he was told just that, since it's the sort of thing that would crop up in an October interview, particularly as his colleagues could have already put in for their leave.

perpetua

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5095 on: December 17, 2013, 09:07:33 AM »
I'm in the UK too, and I strongly suspect that he was told just that, since it's the sort of thing that would crop up in an October interview, particularly as his colleagues could have already put in for their leave.

Yeah, it's very possible; I can see that happening too. But the pub's quote that 'All our chefs must work on a Sunday' is a bit daft, because people are entitled to take leave. And if they can't ever take leave on a Sunday - that's a whole different kettle of fish.

OSUJillyBean

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5096 on: December 17, 2013, 09:13:41 AM »
I see their point of view about working Christmas, if he was specifically told he had to work Xmas day this year. However, he asked for a weekend off during December. The terms of his employment being 'must work Sundays' surely can't mean he must work *every single Sunday*, in the same way that 'your hours are Monday to Friday' doesn't mean you can never take a day's leave between Monday and Friday. So I'm finding all the 'he knew he'd have to work Sundays and it's his own hard luck' posts a little harsh. He's entitled to ask for a day's leave. That's why we have annual leave (and our annual leave policies over here are generally more generous than they are for you guys, we tend to get more days than you, and that's worth bearing in mind too).

If, on the other hand, he was told 'No annual leave at all during December' at the outset, then he's outta luck.

I once worked for a vet and was told I "might have to work some weekends" when I hired on.  I agreed, assuming (incorrectly) that some weekends did not mean every weekend.  Long-story short I worked every single weekend for the entire eight months I lasted at that job except for two weekends I had to have off due to being out of town.  And my supervisor made a royal stink about covering for me as nobody else would take my shifts since they were already scheduled for weekends too and didn't want the extra work.  When I finally quit (no chance at a raise or advancement and now working 12 - 14 hours shifts without assistance or break of any kind.  I quit drinking fluids during my shift to avoid having to take a bathroom break.  All of this for less than $10/hour!), my supervisor was miffed that she had to start working all of my shifts and they have had a heck of a time keeping any employees in those conditions. 

AfleetAlex

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5097 on: December 17, 2013, 09:44:39 AM »
The pub is telling a very different story. He was hired in October and working Christmas and Sindays was part of the conditions when he was offered the job.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/10520543/Sacked-chef-hit-back-at-ex-employer-on-Twitter.html

Best typo ever.  ;D
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Twik

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5098 on: December 17, 2013, 10:24:04 AM »
The pub is telling a very different story. He was hired in October and working Christmas and Sindays was part of the conditions when he was offered the job.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/10520543/Sacked-chef-hit-back-at-ex-employer-on-Twitter.html

I see their point of view about working Christmas, if he was specifically told he had to work Xmas day this year. However, he asked for a weekend off during December. The terms of his employment being 'must work Sundays' surely can't mean he must work *every single Sunday*, in the same way that 'your hours are Monday to Friday' doesn't mean you can never take a day's leave between Monday and Friday. So I'm finding all the 'he knew he'd have to work Sundays and it's his own hard luck' posts a little harsh. He's entitled to ask for a day's leave. That's why we have annual leave (and our annual leave policies over here are generally more generous than they are for you guys, we tend to get more days than you, and that's worth bearing in mind too).

If, on the other hand, he was told 'No annual leave at all during December' at the outset, then he's outta luck.

There's a difference between big companies that can rotate people easily to cover shifts, and small companies, such as most restaurants. There may well be no one who can easily be put in his place.

If they make significant portions of their profit from Sundays and holidays, because that's when people go out to eat, then the staff will have to work Sundays and holidays.

In any event, my sympathies turn on what was meant by "asked" for the day off. If it was simply, "hey is this possible? If not, that's cool," then  the restaurant overreacted in a major way. If it was "$*#(#! Whaddya mean I have to work Christmas? Don't you know I have a baby? Let someone else do it! I'm not coming in!", then I have little sympathy.

Considering that his response was to hijack the twitter account of the restaurant, I would lay reasonable odds that the first response was not the one he gave.
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perpetua

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5099 on: December 17, 2013, 10:37:12 AM »
The pub is telling a very different story. He was hired in October and working Christmas and Sindays was part of the conditions when he was offered the job.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/10520543/Sacked-chef-hit-back-at-ex-employer-on-Twitter.html

I see their point of view about working Christmas, if he was specifically told he had to work Xmas day this year. However, he asked for a weekend off during December. The terms of his employment being 'must work Sundays' surely can't mean he must work *every single Sunday*, in the same way that 'your hours are Monday to Friday' doesn't mean you can never take a day's leave between Monday and Friday. So I'm finding all the 'he knew he'd have to work Sundays and it's his own hard luck' posts a little harsh. He's entitled to ask for a day's leave. That's why we have annual leave (and our annual leave policies over here are generally more generous than they are for you guys, we tend to get more days than you, and that's worth bearing in mind too).

If, on the other hand, he was told 'No annual leave at all during December' at the outset, then he's outta luck.

There's a difference between big companies that can rotate people easily to cover shifts, and small companies, such as most restaurants. There may well be no one who can easily be put in his place.

If they make significant portions of their profit from Sundays and holidays, because that's when people go out to eat, then the staff will have to work Sundays and holidays.


True, but then that's on them to draft in relief staff to cover for absences. If that was the case and they had to work every single Sunday then nobody would ever be able to be away from the restaurant for more than 6 days at a time - what if they're on a 2-week holiday? Or should nobody ever be able to take a two week holiday? (don't forget: we get a minimum of 28 days leave a year for full-time staff here, so taking 2 weeks at a time is common). The business needs to have a contingency plan for this, or in the event that someone calls in sick on a Sunday.

Quote
In any event, my sympathies turn on what was meant by "asked" for the day off. If it was simply, "hey is this possible? If not, that's cool," then  the restaurant overreacted in a major way. If it was "$*#(#! Whaddya mean I have to work Christmas? Don't you know I have a baby? Let someone else do it! I'm not coming in!", then I have little sympathy.

Yep, I'm with you there. And I suspect he was probably told 'no annual leave during December', which the business is quite entitled to do. I expect this'll turn into a 'he said, she said' story, though.