Author Topic: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74  (Read 1332064 times)

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Midnight Kitty

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5100 on: December 17, 2013, 02:18:47 PM »
The pub is telling a very different story. He was hired in October and working Christmas and Sindays was part of the conditions when he was offered the job.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/10520543/Sacked-chef-hit-back-at-ex-employer-on-Twitter.html

Best typo ever.  ;D
POD

You posted exactly what I was going to post, but you got there first.  ;)
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Fi

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5101 on: December 17, 2013, 03:17:18 PM »
I'm in the UK too, and I strongly suspect that he was told just that, since it's the sort of thing that would crop up in an October interview, particularly as his colleagues could have already put in for their leave.

Yeah, it's very possible; I can see that happening too. But the pub's quote that 'All our chefs must work on a Sunday' is a bit daft, because people are entitled to take leave. And if they can't ever take leave on a Sunday - that's a whole different kettle of fish.

Based on my experience of how these things work, there's a rotating shift with some days set in stone and at certain times of the year, it's impossible to get those days off as leave.

I have certain days at work that I cannot miss. In fact, I changed next year's schedule because I have a cast-iron commitment, so the deadline that month has been pushed forward a bit - but I had plenty of notice and checked with everyone possibly involved to ensure that it wouldn't be a problem.

But if i had a job working one specific day a week and I knew I would want one of them off, I'd either talk about it way in advance or mention it in the interview as something that was vital.

His baby did not appear unexpectedly - he was already a father when he interviewed. Why didn't he ask during negotiations? There might have been flexibility in how long he'd have to work on Christmas Day if nothing else.

Also, this pub appears to exist because the community bought it to save it, which implies there's a very strong ethos about it being a community centre. If so many people are eating there on Christmas Day in a very affluent bit of the UK, I wonder what they've planned. Pub landlords in villages don't randomly make the decision to open the kitchens on Christmas Day. They must have a reason.

AfleetAlex

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5102 on: December 17, 2013, 03:34:59 PM »
The pub is telling a very different story. He was hired in October and working Christmas and Sindays was part of the conditions when he was offered the job.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/10520543/Sacked-chef-hit-back-at-ex-employer-on-Twitter.html

Best typo ever.  ;D
POD

You posted exactly what I was going to post, but you got there first.  ;)

Great minds think alike, Midnight Kitty!  ;D
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laud_shy_girl

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5103 on: December 17, 2013, 03:59:57 PM »
The pub is telling a very different story. He was hired in October and working Christmas and Sindays was part of the conditions when he was offered the job.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/10520543/Sacked-chef-hit-back-at-ex-employer-on-Twitter.html

To quote the Landlord "Landlord Steve Potts said: “When Jim, as head chef, informed me that he would not be working on Christmas Day, and other Sundays in the near future, I was left with little choice but to end our arrangement."

Bolded mine, sounds like it was a bit more than asking for just one weekend and Xmas.
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Cherry91

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5104 on: December 17, 2013, 04:10:19 PM »
The pub is telling a very different story. He was hired in October and working Christmas and Sindays was part of the conditions when he was offered the job.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/10520543/Sacked-chef-hit-back-at-ex-employer-on-Twitter.html

To quote the Landlord "Landlord Steve Potts said: “When Jim, as head chef, informed me that he would not be working on Christmas Day, and other Sundays in the near future, I was left with little choice but to end our arrangement."

Bolded mine, sounds like it was a bit more than asking for just one weekend and Xmas.

Aaaaand that removes all sympathy I had for the chef. In a way he was right though. He won't be working Christmas Day or any other Sundays. Or any of the days in between!

Sophia

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5105 on: December 17, 2013, 04:43:50 PM »
I've been a waitress.  I have observed that there is usually tension between the restaurant manager and the head chef.  They both think they are Alpha.  Unless you are talking about a chain which really doesn't have chefs.  I remember one Chef was fired/quit because he refused to make Chocolate mousse anymore.  It had been a special for the holidays and people loved it, so it stayed.  He got tired of making it.  He wanted to make something else.  Argument ...   That isn't that unusual. 

iridaceae

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5106 on: December 18, 2013, 02:19:10 AM »


POD. There are many reasons that people ask a holiday off for. The venom against this man because he wants to be off to be with his child is surprising me. The reasoning behind why he asked off for Christmas shouldn't matter at all.

It shouldn't, but "but....baby!" is much more likely to get a "oh poor person" response than any other reason; how would you have responded if the reason he wanted it off was "I always get drunk Christmas Day. It's how I celebrate."?. If the whole thing had come about because he asked for any other reason except true medical emergencies (e.g. wife's cancer has metastacized and they're looking at weeks now) I'd still be a hard-hearted Hannah.

In other words: not venemous,  don't care what his excuse is,  he needs yo grow up.

Library Dragon

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5107 on: December 18, 2013, 03:07:27 AM »
Pfsssst, that was my sympathy for the chef evaporating.

It's not uncommon to hire people to work weekend shifts. I have people who when hired were told they would work every Saturday. That's not 6 days, but Tuesday thru Saturday, 5 days.  When I worked every Sunday I had Wednesday and Saturday off.

I don't the holiday/vacation really comes into this if he was hired in October.  Unless the standard is different in the UK many businesses don't let employees take time off until after 90 days of employment.

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perpetua

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5108 on: December 18, 2013, 03:26:06 AM »
Pfsssst, that was my sympathy for the chef evaporating.


Well, this is going to be a 'he said she said' affair, isn't it. The pub said he 'informed' them he wouldn't be working Sundays but - well, they're going to say that, aren't they. They're not going to release a statement saying "Well, he asked for a weekend off so we fired him" - how bad would that make them look in the papers? And it could open them up to a potential unfair dismissal action. So, they're going to spin it. As is he. I don't think there'll be any resolution to this because each side is going to say what makes them look the best.

Quote
I don't the holiday/vacation really comes into this if he was hired in October.  Unless the standard is different in the UK many businesses don't let employees take time off until after 90 days of employment.

Yes, it is different. Businesses in general here seem to have a much better ('better' isn't quite the word I want, but I can't think of another one - perhaps someone can help me out? 'More flexible', perhaps?) attitude to employee time off than in the US, at least from what I read about on boards like this. We have generous annual leave policies by law (minimum of 28 days, often more at the company's discretion for employees working 5 days a week; I hear it's about 2 weeks over there?) and there generally isn't anything that says you can't take time off until you've been there x months. If he asked for a weekend off after 'only' having been there two or three months, there's absolutely nothing wrong or unusual about that here and it certainly wouldn't be cause for dismissal.

Library Dragon

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5109 on: December 18, 2013, 03:36:46 AM »
Thank for the vacation clarification.

I loosened our leave policy up last year. It had been the policy that if you were hired in June you couldn't take vacation until January. I thought 6 months was way too long.  A good way to make us all sick of each other.

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Twik

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5110 on: December 18, 2013, 10:21:45 AM »
Pfsssst, that was my sympathy for the chef evaporating.


Well, this is going to be a 'he said she said' affair, isn't it. The pub said he 'informed' them he wouldn't be working Sundays but - well, they're going to say that, aren't they. They're not going to release a statement saying "Well, he asked for a weekend off so we fired him" - how bad would that make them look in the papers? And it could open them up to a potential unfair dismissal action. So, they're going to spin it. As is he. I don't think there'll be any resolution to this because each side is going to say what makes them look the best.

Quote
I don't the holiday/vacation really comes into this if he was hired in October.  Unless the standard is different in the UK many businesses don't let employees take time off until after 90 days of employment.

Yes, it is different. Businesses in general here seem to have a much better ('better' isn't quite the word I want, but I can't think of another one - perhaps someone can help me out? 'More flexible', perhaps?) attitude to employee time off than in the US, at least from what I read about on boards like this. We have generous annual leave policies by law (minimum of 28 days, often more at the company's discretion for employees working 5 days a week; I hear it's about 2 weeks over there?) and there generally isn't anything that says you can't take time off until you've been there x months. If he asked for a weekend off after 'only' having been there two or three months, there's absolutely nothing wrong or unusual about that here and it certainly wouldn't be cause for dismissal.

Why would you think his employer would fire him, if he had made a simple request like, "hey, if it's OK, can I have Christmas?"

Unless they're insane (which is, of course, not completely out of the question), firing him instead of just saying "No" leaves them with no chef at all, which is a headache for them.

The fact that he went and hijacked the twitter in the first place lets me know what sort of employee he is.
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perpetua

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5111 on: December 18, 2013, 10:37:10 AM »
Pfsssst, that was my sympathy for the chef evaporating.


Well, this is going to be a 'he said she said' affair, isn't it. The pub said he 'informed' them he wouldn't be working Sundays but - well, they're going to say that, aren't they. They're not going to release a statement saying "Well, he asked for a weekend off so we fired him" - how bad would that make them look in the papers? And it could open them up to a potential unfair dismissal action. So, they're going to spin it. As is he. I don't think there'll be any resolution to this because each side is going to say what makes them look the best.

Quote
I don't the holiday/vacation really comes into this if he was hired in October.  Unless the standard is different in the UK many businesses don't let employees take time off until after 90 days of employment.

Yes, it is different. Businesses in general here seem to have a much better ('better' isn't quite the word I want, but I can't think of another one - perhaps someone can help me out? 'More flexible', perhaps?) attitude to employee time off than in the US, at least from what I read about on boards like this. We have generous annual leave policies by law (minimum of 28 days, often more at the company's discretion for employees working 5 days a week; I hear it's about 2 weeks over there?) and there generally isn't anything that says you can't take time off until you've been there x months. If he asked for a weekend off after 'only' having been there two or three months, there's absolutely nothing wrong or unusual about that here and it certainly wouldn't be cause for dismissal.

Why would you think his employer would fire him, if he had made a simple request like, "hey, if it's OK, can I have Christmas?"

Unless they're insane (which is, of course, not completely out of the question), firing him instead of just saying "No" leaves them with no chef at all, which is a headache for them.

The fact that he went and hijacked the twitter in the first place lets me know what sort of employee he is.

Because that's one half of the story. He's claiming he was fired for asking for the time off. Just taking both sides on face value.

wolfie

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5112 on: December 18, 2013, 11:48:46 AM »
Pfsssst, that was my sympathy for the chef evaporating.


Well, this is going to be a 'he said she said' affair, isn't it. The pub said he 'informed' them he wouldn't be working Sundays but - well, they're going to say that, aren't they. They're not going to release a statement saying "Well, he asked for a weekend off so we fired him" - how bad would that make them look in the papers? And it could open them up to a potential unfair dismissal action. So, they're going to spin it. As is he. I don't think there'll be any resolution to this because each side is going to say what makes them look the best.

Quote
I don't the holiday/vacation really comes into this if he was hired in October.  Unless the standard is different in the UK many businesses don't let employees take time off until after 90 days of employment.

Yes, it is different. Businesses in general here seem to have a much better ('better' isn't quite the word I want, but I can't think of another one - perhaps someone can help me out? 'More flexible', perhaps?) attitude to employee time off than in the US, at least from what I read about on boards like this. We have generous annual leave policies by law (minimum of 28 days, often more at the company's discretion for employees working 5 days a week; I hear it's about 2 weeks over there?) and there generally isn't anything that says you can't take time off until you've been there x months. If he asked for a weekend off after 'only' having been there two or three months, there's absolutely nothing wrong or unusual about that here and it certainly wouldn't be cause for dismissal.

Why would you think his employer would fire him, if he had made a simple request like, "hey, if it's OK, can I have Christmas?"

Unless they're insane (which is, of course, not completely out of the question), firing him instead of just saying "No" leaves them with no chef at all, which is a headache for them.

The fact that he went and hijacked the twitter in the first place lets me know what sort of employee he is.

Because that's one half of the story. He's claiming he was fired for asking for the time off. Just taking both sides on face value.

Well - They also said that when he was interviewed in Oct he was told that in December noone will get any time off and he has to work Christmas. Just 2 months later he asked for the days off he was already told would never happen? That would tell me some not so good things about him and I might just decide to get rid of him now when he was still in probation rather then when things come to a head later.

perpetua

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5113 on: December 18, 2013, 11:56:35 AM »
Well - They also said that when he was interviewed in Oct he was told that in December noone will get any time off and he has to work Christmas. Just 2 months later he asked for the days off he was already told would never happen? That would tell me some not so good things about him and I might just decide to get rid of him now when he was still in probation rather then when things come to a head later.

Could be. Again though, they're probably going to say that if pressed, because they're not going to admit to firing someone incorrectly (remember, we have rules here, and you can't). I also thought it was interesting that the pub owner said his request breached an 'understanding' that they had when he was hired, which to me implies that perhaps it wasn't written into his contract of employment that he had to work Christmas, in which case the company would be on shaky ground, but that's way beyond the scope of this forum.

Also, as someone pointed out on another forum I read, if they have enough staff cover that they can fire him a week before Christmas and leave themselves a chef short for allegedly their busiest time of the year, then they could probably have done without him on Christmas day in the first place.

There's definitely more to this than meets the eye - I'm just not sure in which direction. It'll probably turn out to be six of one, half a dozen of the other.

siamesecat2965

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5114 on: December 18, 2013, 12:36:00 PM »
Pfsssst, that was my sympathy for the chef evaporating.

It's not uncommon to hire people to work weekend shifts. I have people who when hired were told they would work every Saturday. That's not 6 days, but Tuesday thru Saturday, 5 days.  When I worked every Sunday I had Wednesday and Saturday off.

I don't the holiday/vacation really comes into this if he was hired in October.  Unless the standard is different in the UK many businesses don't let employees take time off until after 90 days of employment.

This is how my PT job works. I work 2 nights and Saturdays, unless I need it off. And because I am a good, reliable employee, and am flexible, and will work or change my shifts, if i can, when needed, I get a cut a bit more slack than some. It's give and take, and I don't take advantage.