Author Topic: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74  (Read 1414035 times)

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Dazi

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5130 on: December 19, 2013, 06:39:24 AM »
The bosses at my job are fairly lenient with time off request.  There are some rules that need to be followed, but the only one that sticks out in my mind is not more than two people per department area can be scheduled for vacation at the same time. This is really just to prevent a total disaster in case there is an emergency, like someone needing emergency surgery, some personal family crisis comes up, or some nasty flu/cold wipes out half the department at the same time.

Thankfully we get Christmas and New Years off, but I've worked jobs where holidays were black out times and no one was allowed to take off from November 1 until January 2 (that meant the bosses too).


That being said, I think one of my CWs is committing PD or trying to...I'd estimate they've called out at least 10-15 times this year. 
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Stormtreader

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5131 on: December 19, 2013, 06:42:39 AM »
In the UK we 'accrue' paid holiday from the very first day of our employment. There is nothing to say that you can't take the two days you've accrued in your first month at the end of that first month, for example - and you will be paid for it.  Referring to the guy as 'deadweight' for  asking for holiday days after 2 months is really unfair. Because that isn't how it works here. I don't know what else I can say to get that across. People are basing their opinions of this guy against working practices in their own country and I find that really unfair.

I work in the UK as well - although legally holiday i may have acrrued that holiday, we have been told that the last 2 weeks of March are not permissible to take holiday in due to it being financial year end, this is a non-negotiable factor in my job. I dont see that as being different from his jobs non-negotiable days to include christmas.

Diane AKA Traska

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5132 on: December 19, 2013, 06:44:55 AM »
In the UK we 'accrue' paid holiday from the very first day of our employment. There is nothing to say that you can't take the two days you've accrued in your first month at the end of that first month, for example - and you will be paid for it.  Referring to the guy as 'deadweight' for  asking for holiday days after 2 months is really unfair. Because that isn't how it works here. I don't know what else I can say to get that across. People are basing their opinions of this guy against working practices in their own country and I find that really unfair.

I work in the UK as well - although legally holiday i may have acrrued that holiday, we have been told that the last 2 weeks of March are not permissible to take holiday in due to it being financial year end, this is a non-negotiable factor in my job. I dont see that as being different from his jobs non-negotiable days to include christmas.

I have to disagree.  People generally don't spend every March 19th with their families as a tradition.
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Stormtreader

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5133 on: December 19, 2013, 06:50:21 AM »
In the UK we 'accrue' paid holiday from the very first day of our employment. There is nothing to say that you can't take the two days you've accrued in your first month at the end of that first month, for example - and you will be paid for it.  Referring to the guy as 'deadweight' for  asking for holiday days after 2 months is really unfair. Because that isn't how it works here. I don't know what else I can say to get that across. People are basing their opinions of this guy against working practices in their own country and I find that really unfair.

I work in the UK as well - although legally holiday i may have acrrued that holiday, we have been told that the last 2 weeks of March are not permissible to take holiday in due to it being financial year end, this is a non-negotiable factor in my job. I dont see that as being different from his jobs non-negotiable days to include christmas.

I have to disagree.  People generally don't spend every March 19th with their families as a tradition.

I agree that its an awful lot worse to have your no-holiday day as the most desirable day of the year, but he had the option to turn down the job in October if he didnt agree with it. He accepted it with the requirement that he work christmas and then refused to do that.

Just editing to say I didnt want to argue with anyone, I really just posted to say that although the law is different in the UK to the USA, it isnt the case here that you can decide to take whatever day you want off as holiday and everyone legally has to be fine with that.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 06:54:52 AM by Stormtreader »

perpetua

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5134 on: December 19, 2013, 06:58:38 AM »
In the UK we 'accrue' paid holiday from the very first day of our employment. There is nothing to say that you can't take the two days you've accrued in your first month at the end of that first month, for example - and you will be paid for it.  Referring to the guy as 'deadweight' for  asking for holiday days after 2 months is really unfair. Because that isn't how it works here. I don't know what else I can say to get that across. People are basing their opinions of this guy against working practices in their own country and I find that really unfair.

I work in the UK as well - although legally holiday i may have acrrued that holiday, we have been told that the last 2 weeks of March are not permissible to take holiday in due to it being financial year end, this is a non-negotiable factor in my job. I dont see that as being different from his jobs non-negotiable days to include christmas.

I totally agree with this, and I've said that upthread. If he *was* informed that he would have to work Xmas, then he was out of line to expect the day off (although not necessarily out of line to ask, as long as he took a refusal on the chin)

What I've been trying to explain was that it isn't automatically PD to take holiday in the first X-months of employment. Many posters here seem to think it is and are judging the chef for asking to do that as some kind of 'dead weight'. Against the background of our employment laws/culture, there's nothing wrong with asking for time off in the first X-months. And this incident happened here, and as such the chef's request should be judged against *our* employment culture and rules, not that of the US or Canada or wherever. This is in reference to the Sundays, rather than the Xmas, actually.

Quote
Just editing to say I didnt want to argue with anyone, I really just posted to say that although the law is different in the UK to the USA, it isnt the case here that you can decide to take whatever day you want off as holiday and everyone legally has to be fine with that.

I don't want to argue with anyone either :) I'm not saying that. I'm saying he isn't out of line or committing PD to *ask*. Of course it's still at the discretion of the employer as to whether the requested holiday is convenient. But committing some kind of PD or showing himself to be a bad employee or a deadweight for daring to take or ask for leave in the first X-months? No. Definitely not.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 07:01:04 AM by perpetua »

eltf177

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5135 on: December 19, 2013, 07:09:48 AM »
Also, if an employee states at the time of hiring that there is already a commitment coming up that requires time off, there typically isn't an issue. 

Re the pub chef and asking for time off in blackout periods especially when new, is if you tell your employer at the time you are offered the job that you are going to need either specific dates off because you already have a holiday booked, or that you are going to need days off that month for x reason but you aren't sure of the exact days just yet.

I can easily see you _not_ getting hired if you're putting down conditions before even coming on.

At one time I had a co-irker who had tickets to a upcoming auto race in another state when he was being interviewed. He said nothing to anyone at the time. Then he dumped his job on me that weekend with absolutely no warning when I already had plans, lying about everything from what hours they were working to telling me they weren't working Monday when they were. When I complained to the boss he investigated and told me he "found no irregularities." Bull, co-irker lied about availability and dumped his job on me!

I refused to do any extra duties for boss after that...

perpetua

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5136 on: December 19, 2013, 07:21:19 AM »
Also, if an employee states at the time of hiring that there is already a commitment coming up that requires time off, there typically isn't an issue. 

Re the pub chef and asking for time off in blackout periods especially when new, is if you tell your employer at the time you are offered the job that you are going to need either specific dates off because you already have a holiday booked, or that you are going to need days off that month for x reason but you aren't sure of the exact days just yet.

I can easily see you _not_ getting hired if you're putting down conditions before even coming on.


Again: here, you are usually asked at the time of hiring if you have any existing holiday commitments, and they will be honoured. That is usually asked after a job offer is made and not as a condition of whether to hire or not.

Why are people finding it so difficult to accept that employment here is *different*?

MariaE

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5137 on: December 19, 2013, 07:23:59 AM »
Perhaps the differences in employment should be moved to a separate thread? I'm worried that this thread will get locked.
 
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Diane AKA Traska

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5138 on: December 19, 2013, 07:47:56 AM »
I just want to state that my post should not be construed as support of this chef or his actions.  I think he was totally wrong, but Christmas is hardly just another day.  :)
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MissRose

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5139 on: December 19, 2013, 08:00:09 AM »
Quote
We have generous annual leave policies by law (minimum of 28 days, often more at the company's discretion for employees working 5 days a week; I hear it's about 2 weeks over there?)

There is no legally mandated minimum leave in the US, not even for holidays. The law "does not require payment for time not worked, such as vacations, sick leave or holidays (federal or otherwise). These benefits are a matter of agreement between an employer and an employee (or the employee's representative)."  Two weeks is a common practice. Employees covered by union or personal contracts, or who are civil service government employees, may get more (most employees are not covered by a contract.) Some employers may increase leave time with seniority.

My work place gives us: 5 paid days for sick, and based on seniority you can get up to 25 days paid vacation per year.  I do not work in a unionized work place nor for the government.  When I worked fast food and you wanted to go on vacation, you asked for the days off and did not get paid.  Same for sick, you called off, you did not get paid.

MissRose

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5140 on: December 19, 2013, 08:13:04 AM »
The post office person that waited on me yesterday that has the issue with the Snowflake customer said she was not allowed to tell him off for his bad behavior or she could be written up for it.  At least another customer in line she said did the tell off for her, and the nice man was right behind me in the line, and the lady said hello and thank you for yesterday.  I wish there were times that people like her or retail as an example were allowed to call out SS's for their behavior without worries about committing PD.

Twik

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5141 on: December 19, 2013, 09:46:48 AM »
I just want to state that my post should not be construed as support of this chef or his actions.  I think he was totally wrong, but Christmas is hardly just another day.  :)

For an infant, it is. One could easily celebrate Christmas on another day for a baby.
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wolfie

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5142 on: December 19, 2013, 10:00:12 AM »
I don't want to argue with anyone either :) I'm not saying that. I'm saying he isn't out of line or committing PD to *ask*. Of course it's still at the discretion of the employer as to whether the requested holiday is convenient. But committing some kind of PD or showing himself to be a bad employee or a deadweight for daring to take or ask for leave in the first X-months? No. Definitely not.

 I  think he was out of line for asking. If I hire someone and say "July 30th is our busiest day and noone will be getting that day off" and then two months later you ask me for July 30th off my opinion of you will plummet and you bet it will have repercussions. It tells me you don't listen and you don't think the rules apply to you - neither of which are good things for your boss to be thinking of.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 11:14:14 AM by wolfie »

perpetua

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5143 on: December 19, 2013, 10:07:44 AM »
I don't want to argue with anyone either :) I'm not saying that. I'm saying he isn't out of line or committing PD to *ask*. Of course it's still at the discretion of the employer as to whether the requested holiday is convenient. But committing some kind of PD or showing himself to be a bad employee or a deadweight for daring to take or ask for leave in the first X-months? No. Definitely not.

 I  think he was out of line for asking. If I hire someone and say "July 30th is our busiest day and noone will be getting that day off" and then two months later you ask me for July 30th off my opinion of you will plummet and you bet it will have repressions. It tells me you don't listen and you don't think the rules apply to you - neither of which are good things for your boss to be thinking of.

Again: I was referring to the Sundays. He wasn't out of line for asking for a day off within his first X months because *employers here do not think badly of you for doing that*, it's perfectly allowable. They may do in the States, but they don't here.

I give up. People either aren't listening or just can't grasp that things work differently here, neither of which is any good for productive debate, so I'll bow out.

wolfie

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #5144 on: December 19, 2013, 10:19:17 AM »
I don't want to argue with anyone either :) I'm not saying that. I'm saying he isn't out of line or committing PD to *ask*. Of course it's still at the discretion of the employer as to whether the requested holiday is convenient. But committing some kind of PD or showing himself to be a bad employee or a deadweight for daring to take or ask for leave in the first X-months? No. Definitely not.

 I  think he was out of line for asking. If I hire someone and say "July 30th is our busiest day and noone will be getting that day off" and then two months later you ask me for July 30th off my opinion of you will plummet and you bet it will have repressions. It tells me you don't listen and you don't think the rules apply to you - neither of which are good things for your boss to be thinking of.

Again: I was referring to the Sundays. He wasn't out of line for asking for a day off within his first X months because *employers here do not think badly of you for doing that*, it's perfectly allowable. They may do in the States, but they don't here.

I give up. People either aren't listening or just can't grasp that things work differently here, neither of which is any good for productive debate, so I'll bow out.

I don't think that asking for a day off within his first X months was out of line either. I just think that when you are told noone gets days off in December then asking for them off is wrong. It is just compounded when you have only been working there for 2 months.

I totally grasp that things work differently there. But I am not talking about asking for time off within your first 3 - 6 months. i am talking about asking specifically for days you were already told you can't have off.