Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74

[Ceallach]

Number 3 - This one really took the cake. Applicant calls me and subjects me to a long interrogation regarding the position, mostly wanting information that she should only be asking about after she has been offered the position and when she is negotiating the terms of her employment contract. She wants to know if the hours are flexible, if the pay rate is flexible, does she get a car space ()

She then begins aggressively wanting to know why I am leaving the position, to which I reply that I am not willing to discuss my reasons, but I have been very happy in the position... repeatedly. She then tells me that her email isn't working so she would like to 'drop by' and deliver her application in person. I advise her to mail a hard copy to our PO Box and suddenly she thinks she can 'get her email to work' (quelle surprise!!) and can I give her the email address of the Director so she can address her application directly to him. I tell her that all the applications are coming through me and give her my email address, to which she replies by asking for the name of the Director (evidently intending to try and decipher his email address using his first and last name - which she will not be able to do with just that information so I give it to her.)

A week later she calls again, and this time the Director is in the office and grabs the phone because he is expecting a call and is very bad at waiting patiently for me to answer the phone and transfer the call to him. He is rewarded by receiving the same interrogation - the applicant's email has bounced back (translation: she has guessed his email address wrong), are the hours flexible, what is the pay range, does she get a car space, a travel allowance, a partridge in a pear tree? The Director once again gives her my email address to send in her application (and when she presses for his direct email he tells her (once again) that all applications go through me) and gets her off the phone... when he hangs up he says to me 'we are definitely not hiring her'

Which is a moot point because as of this morning she has not sent in her resume... guess her emails are still bouncing back.

Ugh I get so many of these       

From *their* perspective they're being sooo proactive, and ensuring that their application gets to the top of the pile (and sadly, in some cases, are following actual advice stated in misguided books and articles!!).   

From *my* perspective, they're showing a lack of respect for my time, and an inability to follow clearly stated procedures.     I have to be pretty desperate for them to even get the slightest consideration after that behaviour. 

[Twik]

Potential PD or potential tragedy, we don't know yet.

We had a junior analyst join us two weeks ago. Last week he stops turning up for work, and he isn't answering his email or phone. We're not sure what the heck happened.

Either my company scared him away and he went the PD route of simply not coming back to work, or else something really bad happened to him and we just don't know about it yet. 

Possibly a binge of some sort?

[WolfWay]

Potential PD or potential tragedy, we don't know yet.

We had a junior analyst join us two weeks ago. Last week he stops turning up for work, and he isn't answering his email or phone. We're not sure what the heck happened.

Either my company scared him away and he went the PD route of simply not coming back to work, or else something really bad happened to him and we just don't know about it yet. 

Possibly a binge of some sort?

Nope, just random flakeyness.

http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=74341.msg2823785#msg2823785

 

[siamesecat2965]

Heard this on the news this morning.  Bad move, and I'm glad there were consequences.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/08/15014606-gov-andrew-cuomo-fires-new-yorks-emergency-management-chief-official-says?lite

[bloo]

I can add a little anecdote about Pre-Darwinism:

When I was working at a Domino's Pizza in my misspent youth, I would, on occasion, take applications from people. If I had time I would be happy to discuss aspects of what job they'd be interested in, if we were hiring and whatnot. Now this was almost 25 years ago, so the owner had strict standards for appearance from her employees. For men: No earrings, visible tattoos or hair touching the collar of the polo shirt that was required.

So a youngish (18 or 19?) man came in to turn in an application. I immediately noticed his long, lustrous locks but didn't say anything...I was only 16 so I figured I'd just hand the app to my boss and tell him about the guy.

Said young man immediately launched into dress/grooming requirements and said that it wouldn't be right if he wasn't hired because of his hair and he could sue if that was the case.

Me: "...huh...interesting.  Thanks for the app, I'll give it to my boss."

I did give the app to my boss and told him about the threat of suing if he wasn't hired because of his long hair and my boss immediately crumpled his app and threw it into the wastebasket and then told me that, in the future, I could just toss those apps and not even bother him with them.

[Sirius]

Back when I was a store manager an individual came in to ask about job openings.  He was a regular customer and came in at least once a week, so I was acquainted with him already.  I told him I was looking for someone to work mornings, and he more or less told me that I had to hire him right then because he didn't want to have to keep checking back.  Oh, and he couldn't work mornings because he had another job, so it was up to me to schedule around that, and there were times he wouldn't be able to work because he'd have to work overtime and he wouldn't be able to let me know this in advance, he'd just not show up. 

I told him he wasn't hired, and to not ask me again.  Not only were his available hours too restricted, but I got the impression that if I hired him he'd tell me what he would do and when he would work, and I refused to tolerate that as the boss.

[Ceallach]

Not sure if this was PD or just a near miss for me.     It's Friday (where I am!) and I had a new employee due to start Monday.  It's an entry level admin role with great career progression, for which I had literally 100s of applications.   So it was a hard call eliminating candidates to select one.     However, select a candidate we did - she accepted gladly, and was working out her notice period due to start Monday.   Everything is in place ready to go.  I've been in contact with her throughout the process.

Then out of the blue I got an email from her today saying she's been accepted into university to do her post-graduate studies so has decided  to decline the role.

The reason I think it's a little PDish is this:   our industry is hard to break into, and she expressed a really strong desire to build a career in the industry.  There are actually no specific qualification requirements (although of course they help, particularly at senior level) but getting your foot in the door?  Yep, that's priceless.   All of her experience so far is as a receptionist at a 1 man business, so basically she's going to end up as a receptionist with an MBA.   I wish I could tell her how many degree and even post-grad qualified candidates we turned down for this role!!   I value education highly, but when recruiting it simply is no match for relevant skillsets and experience, so she had an edge JUST because she had some working experience.   However, her working experience is still junior so even if she gets a higher qualification she will still need to start at the bottom, however by then she'll have been out of the workforce for a few years and honestly lost her edge in terms of what we are looking for.   The stupid part is if she'd just called me, I would have happily offered her a part-time role instead if she was interested.   Basically, I could have given her the entry into the industry while she still could have pursued her higher education.    Maybe she was lying all along and didn't really want the job.  It seems unlikely though as her reasons for wanting to work in the industry were good ones.   I wish her the best but I really, really believe she is making a big mistake for her own career.  (The job market is flooded with over-qualified but inexperienced candidates at the moment!!)    Good news for me is I have 100s of other people to choose from - I never send my declines out until I have the person commence (unless it's a long delay) because it's too risky.  Still, I am surprised at this candidates decision and it's a shame she couldn't have been more honest about her personal goals etc.

[CrochetFanatic]

I'm only on page 3 of this thread, but I've got one.  At my first cashier job one of the managers was arrested for stealing.  I was working the front register when a uniformed police officer came in and asked me where this particular manager was, and I said that I thought she was probably in the stock room.  He thanked me, and went back.  I didn't think anything of it until I heard from another employee that she had just been led out in handcuffs.  It turns out that she had been stealing money from the safe for some time, and one of the other managers had finally caught her in the act and called the police. 

Needless to say, she was fired.  She was actually the one I got along the best with, which had me questioning my instincts.

[greencat]

Not sure if this was PD or just a near miss for me.     It's Friday (where I am!) and I had a new employee due to start Monday.  It's an entry level admin role with great career progression, for which I had literally 100s of applications.   So it was a hard call eliminating candidates to select one.     However, select a candidate we did - she accepted gladly, and was working out her notice period due to start Monday.   Everything is in place ready to go.  I've been in contact with her throughout the process.

Then out of the blue I got an email from her today saying she's been accepted into university to do her post-graduate studies so has decided  to decline the role.

The reason I think it's a little PDish is this:   our industry is hard to break into, and she expressed a really strong desire to build a career in the industry.  There are actually no specific qualification requirements (although of course they help, particularly at senior level) but getting your foot in the door?  Yep, that's priceless.   All of her experience so far is as a receptionist at a 1 man business, so basically she's going to end up as a receptionist with an MBA.   I wish I could tell her how many degree and even post-grad qualified candidates we turned down for this role!!   I value education highly, but when recruiting it simply is no match for relevant skillsets and experience, so she had an edge JUST because she had some working experience.   However, her working experience is still junior so even if she gets a higher qualification she will still need to start at the bottom, however by then she'll have been out of the workforce for a few years and honestly lost her edge in terms of what we are looking for.   The stupid part is if she'd just called me, I would have happily offered her a part-time role instead if she was interested.   Basically, I could have given her the entry into the industry while she still could have pursued her higher education.    Maybe she was lying all along and didn't really want the job.  It seems unlikely though as her reasons for wanting to work in the industry were good ones.   I wish her the best but I really, really believe she is making a big mistake for her own career.  (The job market is flooded with over-qualified but inexperienced candidates at the moment!!)    Good news for me is I have 100s of other people to choose from - I never send my declines out until I have the person commence (unless it's a long delay) because it's too risky.  Still, I am surprised at this candidates decision and it's a shame she couldn't have been more honest about her personal goals etc.

I would have done the same thing in her shoes - although she might have a hard time breaking into your particular industry after a few years out of the work force, getting the education may open the door to her in other industries that she'd equally like to work in.  She may have a scholarship or some other support that will allow her to focus on school instead of trying to juggle school and work.

[Ceallach]

Not sure if this was PD or just a near miss for me.     It's Friday (where I am!) and I had a new employee due to start Monday.  It's an entry level admin role with great career progression, for which I had literally 100s of applications.   So it was a hard call eliminating candidates to select one.     However, select a candidate we did - she accepted gladly, and was working out her notice period due to start Monday.   Everything is in place ready to go.  I've been in contact with her throughout the process.

Then out of the blue I got an email from her today saying she's been accepted into university to do her post-graduate studies so has decided  to decline the role.

The reason I think it's a little PDish is this:   our industry is hard to break into, and she expressed a really strong desire to build a career in the industry.  There are actually no specific qualification requirements (although of course they help, particularly at senior level) but getting your foot in the door?  Yep, that's priceless.   All of her experience so far is as a receptionist at a 1 man business, so basically she's going to end up as a receptionist with an MBA.   I wish I could tell her how many degree and even post-grad qualified candidates we turned down for this role!!   I value education highly, but when recruiting it simply is no match for relevant skillsets and experience, so she had an edge JUST because she had some working experience.   However, her working experience is still junior so even if she gets a higher qualification she will still need to start at the bottom, however by then she'll have been out of the workforce for a few years and honestly lost her edge in terms of what we are looking for.   The stupid part is if she'd just called me, I would have happily offered her a part-time role instead if she was interested.   Basically, I could have given her the entry into the industry while she still could have pursued her higher education.    Maybe she was lying all along and didn't really want the job.  It seems unlikely though as her reasons for wanting to work in the industry were good ones.   I wish her the best but I really, really believe she is making a big mistake for her own career.  (The job market is flooded with over-qualified but inexperienced candidates at the moment!!)    Good news for me is I have 100s of other people to choose from - I never send my declines out until I have the person commence (unless it's a long delay) because it's too risky.  Still, I am surprised at this candidates decision and it's a shame she couldn't have been more honest about her personal goals etc.

I would have done the same thing in her shoes - although she might have a hard time breaking into your particular industry after a few years out of the work force, getting the education may open the door to her in other industries that she'd equally like to work in.  She may have a scholarship or some other support that will allow her to focus on school instead of trying to juggle school and work.

When I refer to the over-qualified part I don't just mean my industry, it's well documented that it's an issue everywhere right now here.  There are lots of graduates coming through, but they're finding employers don't value the qualification (except in specialist industries where the qualification is required).   For entry-level roles they think the candidates are over-qualified, and for higher level roles they think they're under-experienced.    I don't know any industries at the moment who are looking for receptionists with an MBA - she will have to start at the bottom no matter where she wants to go.  And the longer she puts it off the harder she'll find it.   But more to the point, it's incredibly unprofessional to aggressively pursue and accept a job opportunity without giving any indication of other potential opportunities or priorities.    And yes, I probed deeply into all of those things with her - so I can only assume she was lying to me.  And no, there's no scholarship or anything like that.   

[Amara]

Well, better to find out now than in two months. Plus, your not having rejected the other candidates yet still gives you all those options. I am sure you will find the perfect fit.

[Jocelyn]

    But more to the point, it's incredibly unprofessional to aggressively pursue and accept a job opportunity without giving any indication of other potential opportunities or priorities.    And yes, I probed deeply into all of those things with her - so I can only assume she was lying to me.  And no, there's no scholarship or anything like that.

I think it's a bit much to expect a candidate will say, 'I've got a few things I'm considering- some other job opportunities, or maybe I'd go to grad school if I were accepted. Really, my first choice will be whichever one comes through with a concrete offer first.'
Would you have seriously considered her if she'd said she had other possibilities? I can see how that would be in your best interest, for her to admit that, but I don't really see how it would be in hers.

[Shoo]

    But more to the point, it's incredibly unprofessional to aggressively pursue and accept a job opportunity without giving any indication of other potential opportunities or priorities.    And yes, I probed deeply into all of those things with her - so I can only assume she was lying to me.  And no, there's no scholarship or anything like that.

I think it's a bit much to expect a candidate will say, 'I've got a few things I'm considering- some other job opportunities, or maybe I'd go to grad school if I were accepted. Really, my first choice will be whichever one comes through with a concrete offer first.'
Would you have seriously considered her if she'd said she had other possibilities? I can see how that would be in your best interest, for her to admit that, but I don't really see how it would be in hers.

I agree.  There's absolutely no benefit for someone to admit that to a potential employer.  In fact, I think it would be downright foolish.

[PastryGoddess]

For me the issue was in her explanation of declining the job.  If she had simply said, that she had found another position that suited her better or that she was considering other offers, then I'm sure that would have been more palatable than the explanation she gave

I'm assuming that Cellach knows her job field pretty well and understands the job market as well.  This girl allowed the process to move forward until the company was at the point of having her start on Monday full time.  The time for her to send an email was when she was initially offered the job.  Maybe the company could have worked around her schedule maybe not.  But by waiting until the last moment, she has put Cellach's company in a bit of a bind and they may have to reschedule the training she was getting ready to undergo, thereby wasting company resources and time.  She burned bridges in the very industry she wants to work in.  That's not good

Everyone has to do what's best for their situation, but that doesn't mean you get to make choices without consequences either.

[camlan]

It could be that the woman was lying about really wanting a job in Ceallach's field. I can easily imagine someone who really needed a job saying whatever they thought would get them that job, including taking a mild interest in the field and exaggerating it to a positive love for and passion for everything field-related.

It all depends. If her graduate studies are in the same field, then that's odd. But if she's studying something else, she was probably just trying to get the job.