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Author Topic: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74  (Read 3781964 times)

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norrina

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3060 on: November 25, 2012, 11:31:33 PM »
DF and I visited Arlington Cemetery on a particular cold, wet, and generally nasty day. I was living in the area at the time, but he was only in town for a few days, so rescheduling the visit for a nicer day wasn't really an option, but the dreary weather seemed fitting for the solemnity of the visit in any event. We were out in the elements sight seeing all day, so at some point we stopped into Starbucks for some hot coffee to thaw us out. I thought nothing of it at the time, but when I was looking at our photos from the day later, and realized that we had posed smiling in front of the gravestones with distinctive green and white coffee cups in our hands, I felt ashamed of myself for not realizing how disrespectful it had been both for me to smile for a photo op at the cemetery and to bring a drink onto the grounds. At least I didn't flip the bird?



VorFemme

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3061 on: November 26, 2012, 07:51:25 AM »
VorGuy is retired military.  We were driving back from Florida (met DD, DSIL, and DGS - aka Ambrosia Hino, WonderfulSIL, and WonderfulGS for Thanksgiving for four nights at a resort near Sandestin) and I asked him if he had seen the news story.

He was very glad that she'd been fired for her attitude but wondered how anyone could be that BLIND about the consequences of doing something that egregious.  He learned the term "special snowflake".

We ran into a lot of special snowflakes the rest of the drive home - as a ten hour drive stretched to 11 and a half hours due to traffic backing up on I-10 and I-12.  How two lane highways with NO stop signs, no traffic lights, and no visible debris from accidents (when the stop & go traffic finally started to flow again) could get so backed up.......made him wonder what was going on.

Then we had a SS go from the fast lane across two lanes (three lane section of road) to get to an exit ramp - at highway speeds - barely missing three vehicles and the guard rails on the highway and exit ramp (we were on a bridge crossing a major river) to get off.  There had been signs entering the bridge, on the bridge, and as you came off the bridge - but they didn't seem to have noticed them until they were about four car lengths from the exit......it was a fast swoop.....I didn't have time to do more than gasp as several cars (including ours) braked to avoid the accident-that-almost-happened.

There were more SS - but that one was the only one that left VorFemme and VorGuy speechless for thirty seconds.......the others caused immediate comments about how very Special that Snowflake was.
Let sleeping dragons be.......morning breath......need I explain?

PeterM

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3062 on: November 26, 2012, 02:23:52 PM »
I think there's a difference between disrespect for the authorities, though, and disrespect for the dead / for veterans.  I suspect she intended to just disrespect authority (i.e. whoever put in that sign and is trying to dictate that everyone must be respectful) and it didn't even occur to her that someone might interpret her actions as disrespectful to the deceased, the armed forces, or anyone else.  I can especially see that if she was going there with a mindset of the middle ground - not thinking soldiers are particularly worthy of extra respect but not thinking their careers make them worthy of extra disrespect either.  Some people see serving in the armed forces as a special thing and some people see it as a career choice just like being a doctor or a plumber.

That's a fair point as far as it goes, but this isn't just a case of soldiers deserving respect, let alone more respect than other professions. Reasonable people can disagree on whether soldiers are extra-worthy or not. This, however, was a case of disrespect at a monument dedicated to people who had died in the service of their country. I'm confident there'd still be more than a bit of outrage if she'd done this at a monument to dead firefighters, or cops, or doctors, or plumbers. Maybe the latter two professions wouldn't get as much outrage as the others, and that can make for an interesting discussion, but respect for the dead - all dead - is a pretty big deal in our culture, and I think it would've caused this to blow up even in other circumstances.

The specific circumstances are basically a perfect storm, of course. You decide you want  to be disrespectful to soldiers, but that's not enough, so you move up to disrespectful to dead soldiers. But most of the graves at  Arlington are just "regular" dead soldiers, who at least can be honored by their families and under their known names, so even that's not disrespectful enough. So you decide to be disrespectful to the dead at the Tomb of the Unknowns, which is not only an iconic and beloved American monument, but is dedicated to the untold thousands of people who have died for their country in complete anonymity. I can't even imagine how many people died in the Revolutionary War or the Civil War who were never properly accounted for, let alone other American conflicts. Those people will never get the recognition they deserve - literally never - but we built a monument to them and we guard it twenty-four hours a day and it has become one of the most sacred sites in all of America because it assures everyone who serves our country that we will honor you and remember you even if we have no idea you ever existed at all. It's a pledge from the American people that even the forgotten will always be remembered. And that's what this idiot deliberately chose to disrespect.

Now, all that said, I think your guess that she intended to disrespect the sign more than anything else is probably spot-on, but it just doesn't matter. Maybe she was intending disrespect to nothing but words on a plaque, but the concept that words and symbols have a deeper meaning than just their physical manifestation is pretty central to what it means to be human. Also central to our basic humanity is our desire to honor those who deserve it. She ignored the first on her way to spitting on the second, and if the best defense anyone can come up with is "She's really just that stupid," I can't particularly motivate myself to care.

yokozbornak

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3063 on: November 26, 2012, 03:24:52 PM »
I think there's a difference between disrespect for the authorities, though, and disrespect for the dead / for veterans.  I suspect she intended to just disrespect authority (i.e. whoever put in that sign and is trying to dictate that everyone must be respectful) and it didn't even occur to her that someone might interpret her actions as disrespectful to the deceased, the armed forces, or anyone else.  I can especially see that if she was going there with a mindset of the middle ground - not thinking soldiers are particularly worthy of extra respect but not thinking their careers make them worthy of extra disrespect either.  Some people see serving in the armed forces as a special thing and some people see it as a career choice just like being a doctor or a plumber.

That's a fair point as far as it goes, but this isn't just a case of soldiers deserving respect, let alone more respect than other professions. Reasonable people can disagree on whether soldiers are extra-worthy or not. This, however, was a case of disrespect at a monument dedicated to people who had died in the service of their country. I'm confident there'd still be more than a bit of outrage if she'd done this at a monument to dead firefighters, or cops, or doctors, or plumbers. Maybe the latter two professions wouldn't get as much outrage as the others, and that can make for an interesting discussion, but respect for the dead - all dead - is a pretty big deal in our culture, and I think it would've caused this to blow up even in other circumstances.

The specific circumstances are basically a perfect storm, of course. You decide you want  to be disrespectful to soldiers, but that's not enough, so you move up to disrespectful to dead soldiers. But most of the graves at  Arlington are just "regular" dead soldiers, who at least can be honored by their families and under their known names, so even that's not disrespectful enough. So you decide to be disrespectful to the dead at the Tomb of the Unknowns, which is not only an iconic and beloved American monument, but is dedicated to the untold thousands of people who have died for their country in complete anonymity. I can't even imagine how many people died in the Revolutionary War or the Civil War who were never properly accounted for, let alone other American conflicts. Those people will never get the recognition they deserve - literally never - but we built a monument to them and we guard it twenty-four hours a day and it has become one of the most sacred sites in all of America because it assures everyone who serves our country that we will honor you and remember you even if we have no idea you ever existed at all. It's a pledge from the American people that even the forgotten will always be remembered. And that's what this idiot deliberately chose to disrespect.

Now, all that said, I think your guess that she intended to disrespect the sign more than anything else is probably spot-on, but it just doesn't matter. Maybe she was intending disrespect to nothing but words on a plaque, but the concept that words and symbols have a deeper meaning than just their physical manifestation is pretty central to what it means to be human. Also central to our basic humanity is our desire to honor those who deserve it. She ignored the first on her way to spitting on the second, and if the best defense anyone can come up with is "She's really just that stupid," I can't particularly motivate myself to care.

Your words put a tear in my eye! 

Shoo

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3064 on: November 26, 2012, 03:27:45 PM »
I think there's a difference between disrespect for the authorities, though, and disrespect for the dead / for veterans.  I suspect she intended to just disrespect authority (i.e. whoever put in that sign and is trying to dictate that everyone must be respectful) and it didn't even occur to her that someone might interpret her actions as disrespectful to the deceased, the armed forces, or anyone else.  I can especially see that if she was going there with a mindset of the middle ground - not thinking soldiers are particularly worthy of extra respect but not thinking their careers make them worthy of extra disrespect either.  Some people see serving in the armed forces as a special thing and some people see it as a career choice just like being a doctor or a plumber.

That's a fair point as far as it goes, but this isn't just a case of soldiers deserving respect, let alone more respect than other professions. Reasonable people can disagree on whether soldiers are extra-worthy or not. This, however, was a case of disrespect at a monument dedicated to people who had died in the service of their country. I'm confident there'd still be more than a bit of outrage if she'd done this at a monument to dead firefighters, or cops, or doctors, or plumbers. Maybe the latter two professions wouldn't get as much outrage as the others, and that can make for an interesting discussion, but respect for the dead - all dead - is a pretty big deal in our culture, and I think it would've caused this to blow up even in other circumstances.

The specific circumstances are basically a perfect storm, of course. You decide you want  to be disrespectful to soldiers, but that's not enough, so you move up to disrespectful to dead soldiers. But most of the graves at  Arlington are just "regular" dead soldiers, who at least can be honored by their families and under their known names, so even that's not disrespectful enough. So you decide to be disrespectful to the dead at the Tomb of the Unknowns, which is not only an iconic and beloved American monument, but is dedicated to the untold thousands of people who have died for their country in complete anonymity. I can't even imagine how many people died in the Revolutionary War or the Civil War who were never properly accounted for, let alone other American conflicts. Those people will never get the recognition they deserve - literally never - but we built a monument to them and we guard it twenty-four hours a day and it has become one of the most sacred sites in all of America because it assures everyone who serves our country that we will honor you and remember you even if we have no idea you ever existed at all. It's a pledge from the American people that even the forgotten will always be remembered. And that's what this idiot deliberately chose to disrespect.

Now, all that said, I think your guess that she intended to disrespect the sign more than anything else is probably spot-on, but it just doesn't matter. Maybe she was intending disrespect to nothing but words on a plaque, but the concept that words and symbols have a deeper meaning than just their physical manifestation is pretty central to what it means to be human. Also central to our basic humanity is our desire to honor those who deserve it. She ignored the first on her way to spitting on the second, and if the best defense anyone can come up with is "She's really just that stupid," I can't particularly motivate myself to care.

Your words put a tear in my eye! 

Oh, wow, mine too.  Beautifully written.

kymom3

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3065 on: November 26, 2012, 03:29:34 PM »
Bravo PeterM Bravo!!

DS2 is active military and about had baby cows when I told him about these people.

VorFemme

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3066 on: November 26, 2012, 04:31:44 PM »
Bravo PeterM Bravo!!

DS2 is active military and about had baby cows when I told him about these people.

Were they LONGHORN cattle from Texas - just to make it more picturesque?
Let sleeping dragons be.......morning breath......need I explain?

BB-VA

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3067 on: November 26, 2012, 09:21:46 PM »
Bravo PeterM Bravo!!

DS2 is active military and about had baby cows when I told him about these people.

Were they LONGHORN cattle from Texas - just to make it more picturesque?

OUCH!!!
"The Universe puts us in places where we can learn. They are never easy places, but they are right. Wherever we are, it's the right place and the right time. Pain that sometimes comes is part of the process of constantly being born."
- Delenn to Sheridan: "Babylon 5 - Distant Star"

BB-VA

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3068 on: November 26, 2012, 09:25:54 PM »
I think there's a difference between disrespect for the authorities, though, and disrespect for the dead / for veterans.  I suspect she intended to just disrespect authority (i.e. whoever put in that sign and is trying to dictate that everyone must be respectful) and it didn't even occur to her that someone might interpret her actions as disrespectful to the deceased, the armed forces, or anyone else.  I can especially see that if she was going there with a mindset of the middle ground - not thinking soldiers are particularly worthy of extra respect but not thinking their careers make them worthy of extra disrespect either.  Some people see serving in the armed forces as a special thing and some people see it as a career choice just like being a doctor or a plumber.

That's a fair point as far as it goes, but this isn't just a case of soldiers deserving respect, let alone more respect than other professions. Reasonable people can disagree on whether soldiers are extra-worthy or not. This, however, was a case of disrespect at a monument dedicated to people who had died in the service of their country. I'm confident there'd still be more than a bit of outrage if she'd done this at a monument to dead firefighters, or cops, or doctors, or plumbers. Maybe the latter two professions wouldn't get as much outrage as the others, and that can make for an interesting discussion, but respect for the dead - all dead - is a pretty big deal in our culture, and I think it would've caused this to blow up even in other circumstances.

The specific circumstances are basically a perfect storm, of course. You decide you want  to be disrespectful to soldiers, but that's not enough, so you move up to disrespectful to dead soldiers. But most of the graves at  Arlington are just "regular" dead soldiers, who at least can be honored by their families and under their known names, so even that's not disrespectful enough. So you decide to be disrespectful to the dead at the Tomb of the Unknowns, which is not only an iconic and beloved American monument, but is dedicated to the untold thousands of people who have died for their country in complete anonymity. I can't even imagine how many people died in the Revolutionary War or the Civil War who were never properly accounted for, let alone other American conflicts. Those people will never get the recognition they deserve - literally never - but we built a monument to them and we guard it twenty-four hours a day and it has become one of the most sacred sites in all of America because it assures everyone who serves our country that we will honor you and remember you even if we have no idea you ever existed at all. It's a pledge from the American people that even the forgotten will always be remembered. And that's what this idiot deliberately chose to disrespect.

Now, all that said, I think your guess that she intended to disrespect the sign more than anything else is probably spot-on, but it just doesn't matter. Maybe she was intending disrespect to nothing but words on a plaque, but the concept that words and symbols have a deeper meaning than just their physical manifestation is pretty central to what it means to be human. Also central to our basic humanity is our desire to honor those who deserve it. She ignored the first on her way to spitting on the second, and if the best defense anyone can come up with is "She's really just that stupid," I can't particularly motivate myself to care.

Your words put a tear in my eye! 

Oh, wow, mine too.  Beautifully written.

A very large POD from me.  Well said, PeterM!!!
"The Universe puts us in places where we can learn. They are never easy places, but they are right. Wherever we are, it's the right place and the right time. Pain that sometimes comes is part of the process of constantly being born."
- Delenn to Sheridan: "Babylon 5 - Distant Star"

Winterlight

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3069 on: November 27, 2012, 11:02:08 AM »
*Wild applause for PeterM*

If the photo had STAYED in the camer of her or her friend - it would be one thing.

But it got posted to the internet.....and now it's public that "nobody can tell ME what to do (or not do)" and she's learned that there is a price to be paid for doing some things in some places and breaking the rules very, very publically.

That she doesn't think ahead about consequences is a direct cause of the effect that she ignored the rules, had the photo taken, and then posted very publically on the world wide web.

No Vulcan or Betan training on logic in her educational background.

If she had been on her own, and not on a business trip paid for by her employer, I might have said she didn't deserve to be fired.  But considering that not only did the employer pay for the trip, but they are in the business of helping the disabled to boot, well...She and her friend definitely became liabilities.

Wonder when the lawsuit for wrongful dismissal will be filed?

It could be argued either way if she was on her own time- she might still be seen as representing her company. However, since this was a work event, she really PD'd herself. Good luck getting another job in her field.
If wisdomís ways you wisely seek,
Five things observe with care,
To whom you speak,
Of whom you speak,
And how, and when, and where.
Caroline Lake Ingalls

Twik

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3070 on: November 27, 2012, 11:05:57 AM »
I think there's a difference between disrespect for the authorities, though, and disrespect for the dead / for veterans.  I suspect she intended to just disrespect authority (i.e. whoever put in that sign and is trying to dictate that everyone must be respectful) and it didn't even occur to her that someone might interpret her actions as disrespectful to the deceased, the armed forces, or anyone else.  I can especially see that if she was going there with a mindset of the middle ground - not thinking soldiers are particularly worthy of extra respect but not thinking their careers make them worthy of extra disrespect either.  Some people see serving in the armed forces as a special thing and some people see it as a career choice just like being a doctor or a plumber.

Even if this had been a memorial to dead telephone sanitizers, it is a memorial to the dead. Most people believe that that, in itself, requires a reverent attitude, out of respect to our shared humanity.
My cousin's memoir of love and loneliness while raising a child with multiple disabilities will be out on Amazon soon! Know the Night, by Maria Mutch, has been called "full of hope, light, and companionship for surviving the small hours of the night."

afbluebelle

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3071 on: November 27, 2012, 03:23:40 PM »
*Wild applause for PeterM*

If the photo had STAYED in the camer of her or her friend - it would be one thing.

But it got posted to the internet.....and now it's public that "nobody can tell ME what to do (or not do)" and she's learned that there is a price to be paid for doing some things in some places and breaking the rules very, very publically.

That she doesn't think ahead about consequences is a direct cause of the effect that she ignored the rules, had the photo taken, and then posted very publically on the world wide web.

No Vulcan or Betan training on logic in her educational background.

If she had been on her own, and not on a business trip paid for by her employer, I might have said she didn't deserve to be fired.  But considering that not only did the employer pay for the trip, but they are in the business of helping the disabled to boot, well...She and her friend definitely became liabilities.

Wonder when the lawsuit for wrongful dismissal will be filed?

It could be argued either way if she was on her own time- she might still be seen as representing her company. However, since this was a work event, she really PD'd herself. Good luck getting another job in her field.

In that field? Good luck getting a job where the hiring people did a Google search... What company wants to be known as the guys that hired the "Arlington Bird" Chick?
My inner (r-word) is having a field day with this one.
-Love is Evol: Christopher Titus-

My Wounded Vet Fundraiser for World's Toughest Mudder! https://www.crowdrise.com/deeannthomastoughmudderwtm/

blueyzca01

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3072 on: November 27, 2012, 06:09:35 PM »
Letís just state this up front:  itís disgusting, she was fired for it, hopefully sheíll learn.

But, (a very little but), isnít this what these people fought for?  The right to express yourself as you want?  The right to be able to say something against the government or the countryís leaders or whoever youíre upset with without fear of being jailed and/or killed for it? 

She didnít yell ďFire!Ē in a movie theater,  she didnít endanger the safety or rights of others.  She did something incredibly disrespectful and sickeningÖbut, isnít the right to say it why these people fought?  Yes, you can argue that they didnít anticipate someone acknowledging their sacrifice so rudely.  But they did make the sacrifice because they wanted and needed to protect their country and the people in it.  If we're going to say we believe in Freedom of Speech, shouldn't we show it?

E.g., I cannot stand Howard Stern.  I think heís a despicable human being and cannot believe that people enjoy his show.  With that, I totally support his right to have the show and say what he wants.  I just change the station. 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 06:28:00 PM by blueyzca01 »
No one ever says, "Why me?!?!" when something good happens.

Elfmama

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3073 on: November 27, 2012, 06:32:05 PM »
Certainly.  She has a right to make a pariah of herself in the name of "free speech."  No one stopped her; she has not been arrested or imprisoned. No governmental entity has said "You can't say that."

And her prospective employers also have the right to free speech.  That speech is "No job for you!"
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Common sense is not a gift, but a curse.  Because then
you have to deal with all the people who don't have it.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

afbluebelle

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3074 on: November 27, 2012, 07:19:44 PM »
Letís just state this up front:  itís disgusting, she was fired for it, hopefully sheíll learn.

But, (a very little but), isnít this what these people fought for?  The right to express yourself as you want?  The right to be able to say something against the government or the countryís leaders or whoever youíre upset with without fear of being jailed and/or killed for it? 

She didnít yell ďFire!Ē in a movie theater,  she didnít endanger the safety or rights of others.  She did something incredibly disrespectful and sickeningÖbut, isnít the right to say it why these people fought?  Yes, you can argue that they didnít anticipate someone acknowledging their sacrifice so rudely.  But they did make the sacrifice because they wanted and needed to protect their country and the people in it.  If we're going to say we believe in Freedom of Speech, shouldn't we show it?

E.g., I cannot stand Howard Stern.  I think heís a despicable human being and cannot believe that people enjoy his show.  With that, I totally support his right to have the show and say what he wants.  I just change the station.

I agree with your thoughts on free speech. I also agree that I have the right to disagree about what the lady said. There is nothing that guarantees Consequence Free Speech  ;)


Completely OT - 2008 we had a bunch of political protestors outside of the base I was stationed at. I was doing a lunch run and made it a point to wave hello and thank them for exercising their right to assemble peacefully. They were actually pretty cool! Plus, anyone willing to brave a Tampa summer in a full body foam costume and face mask has major props from me :D
My inner (r-word) is having a field day with this one.
-Love is Evol: Christopher Titus-

My Wounded Vet Fundraiser for World's Toughest Mudder! https://www.crowdrise.com/deeannthomastoughmudderwtm/