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Author Topic: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74  (Read 4287319 times)

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BB-VA

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3060 on: November 26, 2012, 09:21:46 PM »
Bravo PeterM Bravo!!

DS2 is active military and about had baby cows when I told him about these people.

Were they LONGHORN cattle from Texas - just to make it more picturesque?

OUCH!!!
"The Universe puts us in places where we can learn. They are never easy places, but they are right. Wherever we are, it's the right place and the right time. Pain that sometimes comes is part of the process of constantly being born."
- Delenn to Sheridan: "Babylon 5 - Distant Star"

BB-VA

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3061 on: November 26, 2012, 09:25:54 PM »
I think there's a difference between disrespect for the authorities, though, and disrespect for the dead / for veterans.  I suspect she intended to just disrespect authority (i.e. whoever put in that sign and is trying to dictate that everyone must be respectful) and it didn't even occur to her that someone might interpret her actions as disrespectful to the deceased, the armed forces, or anyone else.  I can especially see that if she was going there with a mindset of the middle ground - not thinking soldiers are particularly worthy of extra respect but not thinking their careers make them worthy of extra disrespect either.  Some people see serving in the armed forces as a special thing and some people see it as a career choice just like being a doctor or a plumber.

That's a fair point as far as it goes, but this isn't just a case of soldiers deserving respect, let alone more respect than other professions. Reasonable people can disagree on whether soldiers are extra-worthy or not. This, however, was a case of disrespect at a monument dedicated to people who had died in the service of their country. I'm confident there'd still be more than a bit of outrage if she'd done this at a monument to dead firefighters, or cops, or doctors, or plumbers. Maybe the latter two professions wouldn't get as much outrage as the others, and that can make for an interesting discussion, but respect for the dead - all dead - is a pretty big deal in our culture, and I think it would've caused this to blow up even in other circumstances.

The specific circumstances are basically a perfect storm, of course. You decide you want  to be disrespectful to soldiers, but that's not enough, so you move up to disrespectful to dead soldiers. But most of the graves at  Arlington are just "regular" dead soldiers, who at least can be honored by their families and under their known names, so even that's not disrespectful enough. So you decide to be disrespectful to the dead at the Tomb of the Unknowns, which is not only an iconic and beloved American monument, but is dedicated to the untold thousands of people who have died for their country in complete anonymity. I can't even imagine how many people died in the Revolutionary War or the Civil War who were never properly accounted for, let alone other American conflicts. Those people will never get the recognition they deserve - literally never - but we built a monument to them and we guard it twenty-four hours a day and it has become one of the most sacred sites in all of America because it assures everyone who serves our country that we will honor you and remember you even if we have no idea you ever existed at all. It's a pledge from the American people that even the forgotten will always be remembered. And that's what this idiot deliberately chose to disrespect.

Now, all that said, I think your guess that she intended to disrespect the sign more than anything else is probably spot-on, but it just doesn't matter. Maybe she was intending disrespect to nothing but words on a plaque, but the concept that words and symbols have a deeper meaning than just their physical manifestation is pretty central to what it means to be human. Also central to our basic humanity is our desire to honor those who deserve it. She ignored the first on her way to spitting on the second, and if the best defense anyone can come up with is "She's really just that stupid," I can't particularly motivate myself to care.

Your words put a tear in my eye! 

Oh, wow, mine too.  Beautifully written.

A very large POD from me.  Well said, PeterM!!!
"The Universe puts us in places where we can learn. They are never easy places, but they are right. Wherever we are, it's the right place and the right time. Pain that sometimes comes is part of the process of constantly being born."
- Delenn to Sheridan: "Babylon 5 - Distant Star"

Winterlight

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3062 on: November 27, 2012, 11:02:08 AM »
*Wild applause for PeterM*

If the photo had STAYED in the camer of her or her friend - it would be one thing.

But it got posted to the internet.....and now it's public that "nobody can tell ME what to do (or not do)" and she's learned that there is a price to be paid for doing some things in some places and breaking the rules very, very publically.

That she doesn't think ahead about consequences is a direct cause of the effect that she ignored the rules, had the photo taken, and then posted very publically on the world wide web.

No Vulcan or Betan training on logic in her educational background.

If she had been on her own, and not on a business trip paid for by her employer, I might have said she didn't deserve to be fired.  But considering that not only did the employer pay for the trip, but they are in the business of helping the disabled to boot, well...She and her friend definitely became liabilities.

Wonder when the lawsuit for wrongful dismissal will be filed?

It could be argued either way if she was on her own time- she might still be seen as representing her company. However, since this was a work event, she really PD'd herself. Good luck getting another job in her field.
If wisdomís ways you wisely seek,
Five things observe with care,
To whom you speak,
Of whom you speak,
And how, and when, and where.
Caroline Lake Ingalls

Twik

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3063 on: November 27, 2012, 11:05:57 AM »
I think there's a difference between disrespect for the authorities, though, and disrespect for the dead / for veterans.  I suspect she intended to just disrespect authority (i.e. whoever put in that sign and is trying to dictate that everyone must be respectful) and it didn't even occur to her that someone might interpret her actions as disrespectful to the deceased, the armed forces, or anyone else.  I can especially see that if she was going there with a mindset of the middle ground - not thinking soldiers are particularly worthy of extra respect but not thinking their careers make them worthy of extra disrespect either.  Some people see serving in the armed forces as a special thing and some people see it as a career choice just like being a doctor or a plumber.

Even if this had been a memorial to dead telephone sanitizers, it is a memorial to the dead. Most people believe that that, in itself, requires a reverent attitude, out of respect to our shared humanity.
"The sky's the limit. Your sky. Your limit. Now, let's dance!"

afbluebelle

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3064 on: November 27, 2012, 03:23:40 PM »
*Wild applause for PeterM*

If the photo had STAYED in the camer of her or her friend - it would be one thing.

But it got posted to the internet.....and now it's public that "nobody can tell ME what to do (or not do)" and she's learned that there is a price to be paid for doing some things in some places and breaking the rules very, very publically.

That she doesn't think ahead about consequences is a direct cause of the effect that she ignored the rules, had the photo taken, and then posted very publically on the world wide web.

No Vulcan or Betan training on logic in her educational background.

If she had been on her own, and not on a business trip paid for by her employer, I might have said she didn't deserve to be fired.  But considering that not only did the employer pay for the trip, but they are in the business of helping the disabled to boot, well...She and her friend definitely became liabilities.

Wonder when the lawsuit for wrongful dismissal will be filed?

It could be argued either way if she was on her own time- she might still be seen as representing her company. However, since this was a work event, she really PD'd herself. Good luck getting another job in her field.

In that field? Good luck getting a job where the hiring people did a Google search... What company wants to be known as the guys that hired the "Arlington Bird" Chick?
My inner (r-word) is having a field day with this one.
-Love is Evol: Christopher Titus-

blueyzca01

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3065 on: November 27, 2012, 06:09:35 PM »
Letís just state this up front:  itís disgusting, she was fired for it, hopefully sheíll learn.

But, (a very little but), isnít this what these people fought for?  The right to express yourself as you want?  The right to be able to say something against the government or the countryís leaders or whoever youíre upset with without fear of being jailed and/or killed for it? 

She didnít yell ďFire!Ē in a movie theater,  she didnít endanger the safety or rights of others.  She did something incredibly disrespectful and sickeningÖbut, isnít the right to say it why these people fought?  Yes, you can argue that they didnít anticipate someone acknowledging their sacrifice so rudely.  But they did make the sacrifice because they wanted and needed to protect their country and the people in it.  If we're going to say we believe in Freedom of Speech, shouldn't we show it?

E.g., I cannot stand Howard Stern.  I think heís a despicable human being and cannot believe that people enjoy his show.  With that, I totally support his right to have the show and say what he wants.  I just change the station. 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 06:28:00 PM by blueyzca01 »
No one ever says, "Why me?!?!" when something good happens.

Elfmama

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3066 on: November 27, 2012, 06:32:05 PM »
Certainly.  She has a right to make a pariah of herself in the name of "free speech."  No one stopped her; she has not been arrested or imprisoned. No governmental entity has said "You can't say that."

And her prospective employers also have the right to free speech.  That speech is "No job for you!"
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Common sense is not a gift, but a curse.  Because then
you have to deal with all the people who don't have it.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

afbluebelle

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3067 on: November 27, 2012, 07:19:44 PM »
Letís just state this up front:  itís disgusting, she was fired for it, hopefully sheíll learn.

But, (a very little but), isnít this what these people fought for?  The right to express yourself as you want?  The right to be able to say something against the government or the countryís leaders or whoever youíre upset with without fear of being jailed and/or killed for it? 

She didnít yell ďFire!Ē in a movie theater,  she didnít endanger the safety or rights of others.  She did something incredibly disrespectful and sickeningÖbut, isnít the right to say it why these people fought?  Yes, you can argue that they didnít anticipate someone acknowledging their sacrifice so rudely.  But they did make the sacrifice because they wanted and needed to protect their country and the people in it.  If we're going to say we believe in Freedom of Speech, shouldn't we show it?

E.g., I cannot stand Howard Stern.  I think heís a despicable human being and cannot believe that people enjoy his show.  With that, I totally support his right to have the show and say what he wants.  I just change the station.

I agree with your thoughts on free speech. I also agree that I have the right to disagree about what the lady said. There is nothing that guarantees Consequence Free Speech  ;)


Completely OT - 2008 we had a bunch of political protestors outside of the base I was stationed at. I was doing a lunch run and made it a point to wave hello and thank them for exercising their right to assemble peacefully. They were actually pretty cool! Plus, anyone willing to brave a Tampa summer in a full body foam costume and face mask has major props from me :D
My inner (r-word) is having a field day with this one.
-Love is Evol: Christopher Titus-

thedudeabides

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3068 on: November 27, 2012, 08:49:28 PM »
The First Amendment guarantees only that Congress/state governments will make no laws abridging someone's right to speak freely.  That doesn't mean someone is guaranteed freedom from the consequences of what they say.  This woman went somewhere that people take so seriously that guards are stationed there in honor day and night, even during things like Hurricane Sandy, and she showed a total lack of respect on her company's dime.  That sort of thing has consequences, and no longer being employed is a possible one.

In terms of Professional Darwinism, I had once a coworker who was trying really hard.  He just stopped showing up for work one day.  He took months of leave with no notice.  He ran out of leave at some point.  About a year later, someone came along and cleaned out his cubicle, but none of us ever heard if he got fired or just quit.  Nobody minded, he was a nutcase, but who does that?

Slartibartfast

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3069 on: November 27, 2012, 11:49:26 PM »
This one was a long time in coming, but was finally decided in the last few weeks:

I'm part of a volunteer group who host a large event once a year.  There are a few paid people at the top who work year-round to prepare, but most of the "staff" are volunteers like me.  Since it's a huge event, there's somewhat of an office-type organization system among the staff - there's a security department, one for working with vendors, one for working with the press, etc.  Department sizes vary from just a few people under the department director up to a few hundred.  I volunteer in one of the bigger departments.

The woman who up until now was the head of our department was . . . I guess "troublesome" would be the right word.  While her underlings work out logistics and staffing issues and spending several months ahead of the event making sure everything will run smoothly, this woman likes to walk in on the day of the event and start changing things.  "Why are we doing this this way?  I don't like it - let's try this totally new idea I just came up with.  Oh, I know you want everyone to sign in so you can keep track of who is where, but I don't want to, and my cronies shouldn't have to either.  What do you mean, you need to keep track of equipment for liability reasons?  Just tell the equipment manager that I said it was okay for my best friend to borrow things for her own personal use for a while - she doesn't need to sign a form."  [etc. etc. etc.]  The other leaders in our department (who are responsible for all the real work getting done) sometimes spend six months hashing out a new way to do something, a way that fixes last year's problems and allows us to integrate with something another department is doing, but this department director would just dictate something get done differently without running it past anyone or bothering to find out whether her way would even work.  Or worse, she'd get people on one side of the event doing things one way and the people on the other side are doing things completely differently (i.e. the way we had planned), so the logistics end up becoming a nightmare.

Anyway, after SEVERAL years of our director actively blocking everyone else from doing their jobs, upper management (i.e. the people in charge of the whole event) finally were willing to listen to complaints that our director won't work with other people and won't take criticism.  Director replied by essentially saying "Fine, if you don't want my input, see if you can get along without me!  I'm taking my ball and going home!"

Management basically said "Gee sorry it didn't work out we'll miss you BYE" and restructured our department so the two people who had always been doing everything to begin with are now co-directors.  They, in turn, made more major structural changes which ousted the former director's cronies from their cushy positions (lots of freedom with very little responsibility) and streamlined the whole thing so volunteering at the event next year should be a lot more fun and a lot less politics  ;D  Strangely, nobody except the cronies are calling for our director to be invited back  8)

JadeAngel

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3070 on: November 28, 2012, 12:15:50 AM »
There's a time and a place for pretty nearly everything.  My favorite photo of my late uncle is of him wearing a women's top, thong, 4 inch stiletto heels (okay, so he was an interesting character) smoking in front of a sign that says "No Smoking within 10 feet of this sign". That type of photo is amusing.  The photo in the article goes way beyond the pale. I can't think of a single way to justify such disrespect for our fallen.

Exactly. We once came across an outdoor market which featured a prominent sign on the wall saying 'No Clothing beyond this point' (obviously meaning no un-purchased clothing) and we took a very hilarious picture of my mother standing under the sign pretending she's unbuttoning her blouse. That was funny, this is not. 

MyFamily

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3071 on: November 28, 2012, 04:35:59 PM »
Slartibartfast, I was in a similar situation - smaller group of volunteers, though.  When the chair took her ball and went home, I know the top staff person was very worried, but after last year, he's so much happier.  It has become so much easier to get volunteers and no one is refusing to volunteer again this year because of problems last year.  It wasn't as smooth as it could have been but it ws so much nicer for me (I wasn't going to do anything last year until the chair left because just the idea of working with her was making me sick).  This is my last year doing a certain job, but that is because I don't want to turn into someone like that - let someone else come in and make certain decisions and maybe even do it completely different than how I did it.  Change can be very good.
"The test of good manners is to be patient with bad ones" - Solomon ibn Gabirol

RegionMom

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3072 on: November 28, 2012, 08:44:26 PM »
Reverse PD-(where admin makes a good one leave)-

A friend of mine told me that the day before T-Day break, a favorite teacher at a part-time preschool (only 2-3 days a week, for a half day) of many years had resigned.  So many parents called to complain and question why she was leaving without notice that a board meeting was called.  Seems that a new admin had come on this year, and had plans to get this long-time school accredited.  Favorite teacher was apparently told to not do her traditional T-Day gathering with chicken nuggets and singing for the parents, complete with festive decorations, but she did anyway, as has been tradition for many years in her room.
(One room per age group, a small school)

Also, the parents were told at the meeting that Favorite Teacher focused too much oh showing letters to the children 2nd semester, and that the reason it takes so long for kids to learn to read is that they are introduced to letters and sounds too young.  Once they are ready, most kids can learn to read "in two weeks."

(Perhaps that bit should go into brain hurty/asplodey?!?)

So, Favorite Teacher was too traditional and too educational, so she had to be let go so they could focus on streamlining for accreditation.

My friend asked, "does the newly hired replacement teacher have all the supplies needed?"
"Oh, yes, she will be given curriculum and all the supplies necessary."

Cue the first day after break, and the room is stripped bare.  The play kitchen, the curtains, the storage containers full of homemade games and manipulatives, the lesson plans and such, all gone.  This was all personal property of Favorite Teacher for years and years, that she collected and made and shared.

The admin/board tossed some leftover items from other rooms to fill it out a bit, but what they will find out in January is that the wonderful old teacher's co-teacher is also leaving, to co-teach with her in a newly rented and licensed private facility, and that over half the parents have already committed to following her there.

So, the new admin, by getting rid of Favorite Teacher, also lost a co-teacher, years of supplies, will have to spend lots of money to fill the void, and oh,yeah, locate another dozen students or so...

(I am sure there is more to the story, but it is fact that she left abruptly and is opening a new place and many parents followed her, especially after a BS board meeting.)

(In this area, accreditation is not such a big deal for part-time preschools, esp. if run by a church.  But, if this one wants to jump through hoops, it is their choice!  Just do not think they thought about checking with the parents first...many non-accredited part-time preschools have waiting lists for the fall after registration in January.)
Fear is temporary...Regret is forever.

nutraxfornerves

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3073 on: November 29, 2012, 12:48:27 PM »
True or false: A good way to let your employer know you are unhappy is to hack into coworkers' email accounts and send abusive messages to a customer.

Didn't like your holiday? (Language warning)

The story is mostly from the customer's viewpoint, but the employee now not only doesn't have a job, but may also be, to use a  British euphemism, "assisting police with their inquiries."

Nutrax
The plural of anecdote is not data

pierrotlunaire0

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Re: Professional Darwinism: Update to OP on p.74
« Reply #3074 on: November 29, 2012, 03:29:40 PM »
This one has not completely played out, but someone has already suffered the consequences.  BG: at the DMV, we do not accept gifts of any kind.  Not even a plate of cookies at Christmas time.  Once a year, we review the list of activities that can result in termination: accepting a gift is at the top of the list.  (I once had a grateful customer drop off a potted orchid for me.  I didn't even know who the customer was, but I donated the flower to an assisted living facility and made sure that my supervisors knew that I had handled it appropriately -- this is how serious this infraction is).  End BG

At our last quarterly manager's meeting, my region manager let us know how fed up she is with employees making really stupid decisions, and then trying to cover them up.

At the time, I had no idea what she was talking about.  I later found out: a car dealership was buying lunches and goodies for the staff at one of the DMV offices.  The assistant manager definitely knew what was going on, but attempted to lie about it when confronted.  She is gone for good.

It was unclear whether the regular manager also knew, so she is suspended pending investigation.

The one thing that they constantly remind us of, and it is the thing you did.  Wow.  Just wow.
I have enough lithium in my medicine cabinet to power three cars across a sizeable desert.  Which makes me officially...Three Cars Crazy