Author Topic: An interesting article in today's Washington Post  (Read 3012 times)

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camlan

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Re: An interesting article in today's Washington Post
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2014, 01:28:45 PM »
Not every kid with issues is a student with special education needs,  either.

In some districts a LOT of the kids in the building are hungry/witnessed violence/live in poverty/move frequently/etc. Behavior might reflect these experiences to various degrees.

This is true. But that still doesn't mean that other children have to be threatened by them.

Maybe we need new categories of special needs, or behavioral needs, or whatever.

And it's not that I disagree with what the teacher wrote in the article. Teachers can't give out private information about other students.

The real issue is that the student population has changed dramatically over the decades, and our systems have not changed to accommodate the new needs of the students.

So we have situations where everyone involved knows that Pat shouldn't be in a regular classroom, because Pat is a danger to the other students, but no one has a way to solve this problem.

Like in alkira6's post--there's a system in place, but it's almost impossible to use the system, because of the documentation, paperwork, meetings and specialists involved. In the effort to do the right thing by one student, every other student in the class suffers for months.

And I didn't know that in some areas, parents could receive money for having a Special Ed child. That adds a whole 'nother level of complications.
Nothing is impossible, the word itself says, “I’m possible!” –Audrey Hepburn


Slartibartfast

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Re: An interesting article in today's Washington Post
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2014, 01:34:20 PM »
At least in our district, there is money for the special ed program but not for the gifted program.  They not-so-subtly steered us toward allowing Babybartfast's diagnosis (kinda-sorta-borderline Asperger's) to categorize her as a student with special needs so she could get the one-on-one pullout she needs, because there's no way to do it until the gifted program umbrella.  Essentially the same service, mind you  :-\

Luckily the gifted coordinator for her school is FANTASTIC and is willing to work with us "under the radar," so to speak, even though Babybartfast isn't officially in the gifted program.  We're still muddling through, but hopefully when we get everything straightened out, Babybartfast will be getting both the extra help and the extra enrichment she needs.

whatsanenigma

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Re: An interesting article in today's Washington Post
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2014, 04:29:51 PM »
The way I see it, the problem is kind of like the problem of a contagious disease.

If a kid had chicken pox, for example, or measles, or even lice, the kid would be isolated at home (possibly in a hospital) and not allowed to go to school with other students and teachers who might catch it.  The student wouldn't be badly treated or made to feel ashamed, but also wouldn't be allowed to infect others.  And the student would receive proper medical care to restore them to health, and then be able to return to school.

I know, it's not as easy when it's some kind of behavior problem.  The school can't just say to a kid "Go away and stay away until you can stop being disruptive".  But I wish there was more of a desire on the part of schools to balance the needs of one student with the needs of many students.  It should be possible for "that" kid to get appropriate, non-shaming treatment in an appropriate setting (be that another classroom, another school, home school, a boarding school, or whatever) and only return to the mainstream classroom when they are well enough to do so.

Spreading chicken pox is not allowed.  Spreading chaos should not be allowed either. 

Celany

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Re: An interesting article in today's Washington Post
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2014, 04:53:16 PM »
The way I see it, the problem is kind of like the problem of a contagious disease.

If a kid had chicken pox, for example, or measles, or even lice, the kid would be isolated at home (possibly in a hospital) and not allowed to go to school with other students and teachers who might catch it.  The student wouldn't be badly treated or made to feel ashamed, but also wouldn't be allowed to infect others.  And the student would receive proper medical care to restore them to health, and then be able to return to school.

I know, it's not as easy when it's some kind of behavior problem.  The school can't just say to a kid "Go away and stay away until you can stop being disruptive".  But I wish there was more of a desire on the part of schools to balance the needs of one student with the needs of many students.  It should be possible for "that" kid to get appropriate, non-shaming treatment in an appropriate setting (be that another classroom, another school, home school, a boarding school, or whatever) and only return to the mainstream classroom when they are well enough to do so.

Spreading chicken pox is not allowed.  Spreading chaos should not be allowed either.

That is a really interesting thought, and one that I agree with, in the spirit of what you're saying.

The sad reality is that a lot of behavioral problems come directly from the home, from the parents parenting poorly (which could be anything from outright abuse, to overly permissive parents who thought that little Timmy kicking toys when he was 2 was cute, so now at 8, little Timmy kicks his classmates, because he learned that it's cute), or from other negative factors (living in an unsafe neighborhood, living in a home that is unsafe (mold, allergens, etc)). And sometimes the child just has severe personality issues, which the parents aren't equipped to handle, and services that teach parents how to handle those issues (assuming that the parent agrees that the child has problems AND is in a financial situation where they can take the time to go to classes/seminars) are few are far between. No good solutions, the way the system is currently set up.  :(
I have studied many philosophers and many cats. The wisdom of cats is infinitely superior. ~ Hippolyte Taine

whatsanenigma

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Re: An interesting article in today's Washington Post
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2014, 07:03:57 PM »
The way I see it, the problem is kind of like the problem of a contagious disease.

If a kid had chicken pox, for example, or measles, or even lice, the kid would be isolated at home (possibly in a hospital) and not allowed to go to school with other students and teachers who might catch it.  The student wouldn't be badly treated or made to feel ashamed, but also wouldn't be allowed to infect others.  And the student would receive proper medical care to restore them to health, and then be able to return to school.

I know, it's not as easy when it's some kind of behavior problem.  The school can't just say to a kid "Go away and stay away until you can stop being disruptive".  But I wish there was more of a desire on the part of schools to balance the needs of one student with the needs of many students.  It should be possible for "that" kid to get appropriate, non-shaming treatment in an appropriate setting (be that another classroom, another school, home school, a boarding school, or whatever) and only return to the mainstream classroom when they are well enough to do so.

Spreading chicken pox is not allowed.  Spreading chaos should not be allowed either.

That is a really interesting thought, and one that I agree with, in the spirit of what you're saying.

The sad reality is that a lot of behavioral problems come directly from the home, from the parents parenting poorly (which could be anything from outright abuse, to overly permissive parents who thought that little Timmy kicking toys when he was 2 was cute, so now at 8, little Timmy kicks his classmates, because he learned that it's cute), or from other negative factors (living in an unsafe neighborhood, living in a home that is unsafe (mold, allergens, etc)). And sometimes the child just has severe personality issues, which the parents aren't equipped to handle, and services that teach parents how to handle those issues (assuming that the parent agrees that the child has problems AND is in a financial situation where they can take the time to go to classes/seminars) are few are far between. No good solutions, the way the system is currently set up.  :(

That's a good point.  It almost doesn't matter what people at the school desire to do, given that there are so few actual options.  Maybe I should have said that society, not just the school, should take a stronger interest in this, in terms of setting up adequate facilities with good teachers, etc., so students who are "infecting" others with their spreading of chaos can have the appropriate resources to "get better" (whatever "get better" might mean for a given situation).

Celany

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Re: An interesting article in today's Washington Post
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2014, 02:31:43 PM »
The way I see it, the problem is kind of like the problem of a contagious disease.

If a kid had chicken pox, for example, or measles, or even lice, the kid would be isolated at home (possibly in a hospital) and not allowed to go to school with other students and teachers who might catch it.  The student wouldn't be badly treated or made to feel ashamed, but also wouldn't be allowed to infect others.  And the student would receive proper medical care to restore them to health, and then be able to return to school.

I know, it's not as easy when it's some kind of behavior problem.  The school can't just say to a kid "Go away and stay away until you can stop being disruptive".  But I wish there was more of a desire on the part of schools to balance the needs of one student with the needs of many students.  It should be possible for "that" kid to get appropriate, non-shaming treatment in an appropriate setting (be that another classroom, another school, home school, a boarding school, or whatever) and only return to the mainstream classroom when they are well enough to do so.

Spreading chicken pox is not allowed.  Spreading chaos should not be allowed either.

That is a really interesting thought, and one that I agree with, in the spirit of what you're saying.

The sad reality is that a lot of behavioral problems come directly from the home, from the parents parenting poorly (which could be anything from outright abuse, to overly permissive parents who thought that little Timmy kicking toys when he was 2 was cute, so now at 8, little Timmy kicks his classmates, because he learned that it's cute), or from other negative factors (living in an unsafe neighborhood, living in a home that is unsafe (mold, allergens, etc)). And sometimes the child just has severe personality issues, which the parents aren't equipped to handle, and services that teach parents how to handle those issues (assuming that the parent agrees that the child has problems AND is in a financial situation where they can take the time to go to classes/seminars) are few are far between. No good solutions, the way the system is currently set up.  :(

That's a good point.  It almost doesn't matter what people at the school desire to do, given that there are so few actual options.  Maybe I should have said that society, not just the school, should take a stronger interest in this, in terms of setting up adequate facilities with good teachers, etc., so students who are "infecting" others with their spreading of chaos can have the appropriate resources to "get better" (whatever "get better" might mean for a given situation).

I agree with that with every fiber of my being. There are so few resources for parents of troubled children, it's incredibly hard to find good programs in much of the US. I have a friend who works with troubled kids in PA. She is paid really low money to deal with a huge amount of stress: Kids that bite, kick, swear, scream, claw, have seizures, make threats. Parents who have extremely inflated ideas of how much progress she can make with the kids in a few sessions. Parents who don't understand that they also need to do certain things to improve their kids behavior (if your child needs behavior therapy, and the behavioral therapist tells you that when Timmy does X at home, you need to respond with Y, she's not actually calling you a bad parent. She's sharing what she's worked out will help Timmy improve, and all the adults in Timmy's life need to do Y thing, or Timmy will only improve with my friend, not with everybody else).

And the sad thing is, she sees a lot of kids that, if there were more money for them to have more one-on-one instruction, and the parents were on board, they would improve vastly. She's had several "success stories" that ended horribly because once the child improved, the parents stopped doing the things that helped the child improve, so the child slid back into bad behaviors.

I don't know how she does it. And for a ridiculously small sum of money a year, especially considering the education she got to be able to do these therapies with children. It's really awful.
I have studied many philosophers and many cats. The wisdom of cats is infinitely superior. ~ Hippolyte Taine

Jocelyn

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Re: An interesting article in today's Washington Post
« Reply #36 on: Yesterday at 11:19:36 AM »
It is much, much easier for a school to shame children (and their parents) for not being nice to Poor Johnny, than it is to expect Johnny to be nice to others. He doesn't wanna be, so they allow him to run amok because the principal is afraid of Johnny's parents, or he just doesn't want to have to do that portion of his job (keeping everyone safe at school). Much easier to belittle and shame those who complain about Johnny's behavior than to do anything about Johnny, so the solution is to find more victims for Johnny who won't raise as much of a stink as Johnny and his parents would.

Schools are run by people who either adore bullies, or are terrified of them. The bullies are acting out the fantasies of some of the school staff, and others are remembering the childhood lesson that you fly under the radar and you don't ever, ever confront a bully or he'll turn on you...better to redirect his attention to someone else. The vast majority of anti-bullying programs are designed to identify fresh meat for the bully, not to step up and stop bullying.

judecat

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Re: An interesting article in today's Washington Post
« Reply #37 on: Yesterday at 01:17:23 PM »
Every excuse this teacher gives for feeling sorry for the poor bully are things that have been issues for at least the past 60 years -- child abuse,  hunger,  adoption,  foster homes,  domestic abuse, etc, etc.   But when I was in school they weren't used as excuses for bad behavior.    In my opinion first you work on the behavior,  then you deal with the issues.   Because people don't just outgrow being bullies,  I've encountered a number of adult bullies in my job as a cashier,  and there is nothing sadder than a grown middle aged man having a tantrum because he can't get change for his large bill in the middle of the night.  First he tried to bully me,  then he decided to make fun of my handicap,  then he just stood there yelling and stomping his feet.   He just could not believe that he wasn't getting his own way.    You know,  I really don't care why he's that way,  I just care that he's not going to act that way in my gas station at 2 am.