Bridezilla: Was the salesperson at fault?

[M-theory]

I still read your response as referring to Rosey's reasoning as demented. "You are ignoring...that's demented."

Really?  Even after being provided context and a statement to the contrary?
 
You still think that I intended to call Rosey's reasoning demented?
 
If that's so, I'm afraid I can't help you further.

OK. Still ignoring my question, then?

[War_Doc]

M., knock it off already.  Either exit the thread and observe the Coke rule or only post what is relevant to the thread and quit trying to pick fights with others.  This is not up for debate.

[Azrail]

I remember when I visited a tailor to get my engagement dress adjusted. The seamstress also made wedding dresses and had a book of her work on the table. There were tons of different kinds of wedding dresses in there - from the more demure and classic styles to the more revealing and daring. One of the more memorable ones used Liz Hurley's famous safety pin dress as inspiration. The bride wearing the dress in the photo was beaming and clearly loved it. It might not have been my cup of tea, or the seamstresses' - but the seamstress was successful because she gave people what they wanted, and not what she thought they should be wearing. That is not only ensuring customer satisfaction and good service, but is just common business sense.

Another story - when I visit the home country and go shopping, I will sometimes, if approached by the clerk, tell them what kind of thing i'm looking for. A lot of the time, the sales clerk won't have the item, but instead of telling me this, they will waste my time showing me things that I clearly don't want (i.e they will show me a pink jacket when I asked for a grey jumper). It's really frustrating when they do this, and I feel rude of them to show me what they want me to buy instead of just telling me they don't have what i'm looking for. (Even though this is apparantly the way they do things over there).

The woman should have tried her best to give the bride what she wanted. If she didn't have it, she should have told them. What she did instead was waste their time and press on the bride dresses that were the opposite of what the bride wanted and was looking for. She was being rude and, in my opinion, annoying. I think the woman should choose another career.

[DottyG]

I like Azrail's phrasing of it. I agree with what she said.

What's an "engagement dress"? When do you wear it? What did yours look like? It sounds interesting.

[Audrey Quest]

I think what the mother said, the groom's apparent philandering, etc are all moot.

What occurred here was that the bride made a request. Rather than honour that request or tell her that she isn't able to provide a dress to the bride's specifications, she tried to steer her away from her preference, to the point where the bride and her family got extremely frustrated.

It shouldn't matter whether the bride looks 'normal' or not. If that's how she wanted to look, she should be allowed to look that way. If the salesperson wasn't comfortable with selling what the bride was asking her for, then she shouldn't have wasted her's and the bride's time.

Without what the mother said about the groom, there is no ehell story.  Its the kicker of the story.

[TylerBelle]

I think what the mother said, the groom's apparent philandering, etc are all moot.

What occurred here was that the bride made a request. Rather than honour that request or tell her that she isn't able to provide a dress to the bride's specifications, she tried to steer her away from her preference, to the point where the bride and her family got extremely frustrated.

It shouldn't matter whether the bride looks 'normal' or not. If that's how she wanted to look, she should be allowed to look that way. If the salesperson wasn't comfortable with selling what the bride was asking her for, then she shouldn't have wasted her's and the bride's time.

Without what the mother said about the groom, there is no ehell story.

Not completely I don't think. For this is one of those stories where the LW really commits the faux-pas than what they are writing in about. As mentioned, the salesperson should have either assisted in finding the dress style the bride wanted or directed her to go elsewhere. 

[Rosey]

Audrey, I did not think you were calling me or my reasoning demented, but I do wish you would stop assuming I am ignoring anything. I have read the entire story multiple times, and I am not ignoring anything. I think we will have to agree to disagree on whether or not the salesperson was rude, but agree that the mother was rude, crass, and tacky!  

[Audrey Quest]

I think what the mother said, the groom's apparent philandering, etc are all moot.

What occurred here was that the bride made a request. Rather than honour that request or tell her that she isn't able to provide a dress to the bride's specifications, she tried to steer her away from her preference, to the point where the bride and her family got extremely frustrated.

It shouldn't matter whether the bride looks 'normal' or not. If that's how she wanted to look, she should be allowed to look that way. If the salesperson wasn't comfortable with selling what the bride was asking her for, then she shouldn't have wasted her's and the bride's time.

Without what the mother said about the groom, there is no ehell story.

Not completely I don't think. For this is one of those stories where the LW really commits the faux-pas than what they are writing in about. As mentioned, the salesperson should have either assisted in finding the dress style the bride wanted or directed her to go elsewhere.  

I think she did that though.  She tried to help her find a dress and was unsuccessful.  A recent episode of Say Yes to the Dress highlighted a few cases of this. One bride could not be satisfied no matter what and it turned out that she had already found a gown that she liked with a price tag that was significantly less (by thousands of dollars).
 
I don't think these folks walked into the woman's shop and said "we want the lowest possible cut you have."  It's more of a process and along the way, the bride was not finding what she wanted and she wasn't really upfront about what she was looking for.  
 
That is why I don't think either part was rude in the situation.  If the bride only had access to dresses that were brought to her then I would be a lot more sympathetic to the idea that she was being pigeonholed.  But, she had access to everything in the store.  What she was looking for wasn't there.
 
If that's the sum total of the story that really kind of ho-hum.
 
What makes it a "story" is the comment from the MOB.  That's a lot of backstory and its both tragic and pathetic at the same time.
 
It was rude for the MOB to bring it up because it would presumably embarrass her daughter and maybe even a bridesmaid or two.  It certainly embarrassed the LW.  That's where the rudeness.
 
If it were just a matter of taste, it's not really a story.  How can we know what the bride's taste is?  Her abnormal situation is driving the choice, not her taste.
 
If she wanted to look slutty, bawdy, whatever, I think there are polite ways to convey that.  If you are looking for something that is not within the normal parameters of what you would find in a dress shop then you should explain that.
 
Another story on Say Yes to the Dress featured a bride who wanted a dress that would look as if half of it were dipped in pink dye.  So, of course she asked for anything and everything they had that had any pink on it.  She settled for something that had pink but was not the dramatic color she originally wanted--I was kind of disappointed for her.

[DottyG]

If she wanted to look slutty, bawdy, whatever, I think there are polite ways to convey that

Again, though, the "bawdy" designation came from the LW. The bride never said she wanted slutty; she wanted cleavage. That's not, necessarily, slutty. The LW assumed something that wasn't stated to her (I'm ignoring the MOB, because no one here disputes the fact that she was rude.)

[Audrey Quest]

Audrey, I did not think you were calling me or my reasoning demented, but I do wish you would stop assuming I am ignoring anything. I have read the entire story multiple times, and I am not ignoring anything. I think we will have to agree to disagree on whether or not the salesperson was rude, but agree that the mother was rude, crass, and tacky!  

Rosey, in your post you said that you didn't see any demented reasoning and were ignoring the reasoning behind their dress choice which is why I posted what I did.

I don't see how it is helpful if the woman insists, as she admitted, on offering dresses that did not fit the bride's requests. I don't see anything in the story about demented reasoning.

And no, I'm not ignoring the fact that they had the run of the place. I am not even suggesting that the bride couldn't find her own dress. I am, as I've said all the way through, saying the salesperson is rude for writing the story with all of her deprecating comments about the bride and her preferences simply because she didn't approve of the dress the bride wanted to find, and I'm saying the salesperson is particularly rude for failing to do her job.

Honestly, I'm surprised you are standing up for her. We wouldn't stand up for a salesperson who refused to help a bride find a strapless gown if the bride was plus-size, even if the salesperson didn't have a plus-size strapless gown in stock. We would still expect her to show the style and help the bride accordingly, right? Yet the salesperson *might* not think that would look good. Doesn't matter. It is still her *job* to assist the bride in finding the gown that meets her preferences.

You were assuming that the LW had things that the bride was looking for but was preventing her from having them because she didn't agree with the bride's taste.
 
My point was:
1. I didn't think that was the case--that none of the dresses were low cut enough for the bride
2. That it wasn't a matter of the dress so much as the reasoning behind it.
 
I wouldn't defend a salesperson who prevented a bride from finding the dress she wanted but I didn't think that was the case--because of the backstory--and after I said essentially that it was all about the backstory, you didn't address that at all in your response to me.

I don't think this is a simple case of a bride looking for something to satisfy her particular taste and a salesperson judging that taste and preventing her from having it.
 
I think this is a case of people who have a peculiar reason for finding something that is out of the norm for most bridal shops.
 
And I think that makes all the difference!
 
If the story ended without the statement about the groom and with the LW pontificating on how large brides shouldn't wear low cut dresses, then I would see it your way--but the bride's situation sheds a very different light on the whole thing for me.

[Rosey]

Audrey, I did not think you were calling me or my reasoning demented, but I do wish you would stop assuming I am ignoring anything. I have read the entire story multiple times, and I am not ignoring anything. I think we will have to agree to disagree on whether or not the salesperson was rude, but agree that the mother was rude, crass, and tacky!  

Rosey, in your post you said that you didn't see any demented reasoning and were ignoring the reasoning behind their dress choice which is why I posted what I did.

I don't see how it is helpful if the woman insists, as she admitted, on offering dresses that did not fit the bride's requests. I don't see anything in the story about demented reasoning.

And no, I'm not ignoring the fact that they had the run of the place. I am not even suggesting that the bride couldn't find her own dress. I am, as I've said all the way through, saying the salesperson is rude for writing the story with all of her deprecating comments about the bride and her preferences simply because she didn't approve of the dress the bride wanted to find, and I'm saying the salesperson is particularly rude for failing to do her job.

Honestly, I'm surprised you are standing up for her. We wouldn't stand up for a salesperson who refused to help a bride find a strapless gown if the bride was plus-size, even if the salesperson didn't have a plus-size strapless gown in stock. We would still expect her to show the style and help the bride accordingly, right? Yet the salesperson *might* not think that would look good. Doesn't matter. It is still her *job* to assist the bride in finding the gown that meets her preferences.

You were assuming that the LW had things that the bride was looking for but was preventing her from having them because she didn't agree with the bride's taste.
 
My point was:
1. I didn't think that was the case--that none of the dresses were low cut enough for the bride
2. That it wasn't a matter of the dress so much as the reasoning behind it.
 
I wouldn't defend a salesperson who prevented a bride from finding the dress she wanted but I didn't think that was the case--because of the backstory--and after I said essentially that it was all about the backstory, you didn't address that at all in your response to me.

I don't think this is a simple case of a bride looking for something to satisfy her particular taste and a salesperson judging that taste and preventing her from having it.
 
I think this is a case of people who have a peculiar reason for finding something that is out of the norm for most bridal shops.
 
And I think that makes all the difference!
 
If the story ended without the statement about the groom and with the LW pontificating on how large brides shouldn't wear low cut dresses, then I would see it your way--but the bride's situation sheds a very different light on the whole thing for me.

Okay, let me try this another way. I'm done debating this with you. I feel the salespeson was incredibly rude. Just like you think I am making assumptions and ignoring pieces, I think you are making assumptions about a)all brides' intentions, b)what the store had available, and c) what the salesperson provided. However, I've already made my case several times and you are either refusing to read all of my posts or refusing to believe the salesperson is at fault. I tried to end the discussion by agreeing to disagree, but that didn't work, so I'll just say I'm done discussing this topic with you. Hopefully we will have more enjoyable debates (and agreements!) on other topics.

[Audrey Quest]

I think its interesting that of all the assumptions to make, that everyone makes the assumption that the LW disapproved of the bride wearing a low cut dress and that she was preventing the bride from obtaining that.
 
It's almost as if she would have had to have written her story to say that she "provided every low cut gown in the store but none of them satisfied the bride" for people not to think that this was the point.

I have seen plenty of shows about wedding gowns where plus sized women have more than an ample selection of strapless, low cut, high cut gowns.
 
Ultimately, the goal of a salesperson is to sell the bride a dress, so I don't see what would be in it for the LW to deliberately keep the bride from finding what she is looking for.  I think it was a misunderstanding of what she was looking for.
 
I think its unfair to say that there is no prevailing "norm" for wedding dresses when that "norm" is evident just by looking at what bridal shops offer as wedding gowns.
 
But, usually the motivation behind the kind of dress a bride is looking for is fairly universal--it's their day, they want to look their best, etc, etc, etc.  Many are trying to satisfy a childhood dream of how they would look on their wedding day, etc.  There's not a single motivation, but it is most certainly unusual for it to be that the bride wants to look vulgar so she can keep the attentions of her unfaithful fiancé.

And while the judgement of what is vulgar varies depending on the circumstances, the motivation given in the story gives a lot of context for what the LW meant and what the bride was likely looking for.
 
I am sure that there are bridal shops in some major cities that specialize in dresses that many people would consider vulgar, but people go there to find what they need and they are upfront about what they are looking for and to them its not vulgar.
 
I don't think this bride was upfront about what she was looking for.  I think it caused a lot of confusion for the LW, who is someone who has a lot of experience dressing brides of all shapes and sizes.  This bride was asking for something very much out of her experience and she could not accommodate it.
 
I don't she is required to have experience with this type of request or to stock really low cut dresses any more than a shop with more daring styles has to satisfy brides who want something more traditional.
 
I also think that most brides who encounter salespeople who are deliberately trying to pigeonhole them into one type of style simply find another dress shop and that neither they nor the dress shop is rude in any way.
 
But, these folks had the run of the shop.  So, if you believe that the LW prevented her from finding what she wanted, where is that in the story?  I have to assume that if they can look at everything in the shop and they don't find what they are looking for, that it is not the LW's fault.
 
And given how they treated the LW when they could not find what they wanted, I can't fault her for not wanting to have anything to do with them.  And in light of the comment, I can't fault her for making a judgmental comment about divorce to juice up the story's entertainment value.

[Starchasm]

I would agree if the letter writer hadn't specifically said that the family was getting really frustrated with her. If the family is getting frustrated - they mean what they say and want what they say they want and she should give it to them and stop trying to "guide" them in the direction she would prefer that they go.

And I agree about the divorce comment.

But failing to "get it" (i.e. what they want) is not rude.  I think she was having trouble understanding/finding what they want.  It sounds like this store may not of been right for this bride and have what she wants.  If her idea of low cut happens to be higher than the brides, that is not rude.  

I think she was more of a bad salesman that day than rude.  Yeah she likely did fail at her job that day, but failing is not rude.  Doing it on purpose would be.

The post said, "Finally, she got very frustrated that I was trying to politely choose things for her that were very lovely and feminine without being bawdy, which was obviously what she was craving," which leaves me to believe that yes, she knew that she was purposefully not fullfilling the brides' questionable but (as the poster admits themselves) obvious desire.

That's how I read it as well.  The mother was gross, but I think the LW was rude and judgmental as well.

[jenny_islander]

I think the LW made unnecessary personal comments, but the only person who was etiquette challenged in the original incident was the MOB.  Revealing someone else's sensitive personal information to a complete stranger?  No, no, absolutely not.

The customers had the run of the store and couldn't find anything in the desired style.  If I were the salesperson, I would have been relieved.  Imagine the bride suffering a wardrobe malfunction, or perhaps just a gauntlet of appalled stares, and somebody muttering to somebody else "Where did she get that dress?"  I wouldn't want the answer to be the store where I worked.  People who didn't want to dress that way would avoid the shop and people who did would come in and leave disappointed if they couldn't repeat the original bride's lucky find.

[Garden Goblin]

The job of a salesperson is to find someone the product they desire.  The salesperson, due to her personal tastes and feelings, refused to do that.  It certainly stands out that she is a lousy salesperson.  The bride was very clear and told the salesperson exactly what she wanted.  She wanted to show a lot of cleavage.  The salesperson disapproved, and thus even though it's apparent that she understood what the bride wanted, she refused to help find the desired dress and instead brought items more to her own personal taste for the reason she gave (that being big women should hide their bigness).  Every bridal shop I went too, even if they didn't have it in the store, had access to catalogs that could show other options.  The mother was crude and gross, the saleswoman was rude and judgmental.  

Even if the mother had not made her comment, there still would have been a lot of rudeness in the story, all of it on the part of the saleswoman.  I've encountered many sales people that thought they knew what was better for me than I did myself, even when I told them what I wanted.  I find it rude in all cases and will usually find myself another salesperson, if not another store entirely.