Bridezilla: Was the salesperson at fault?

[Azrail]

I like Azrail's phrasing of it. I agree with what she said.

What's an "engagement dress"? When do you wear it? What did yours look like? It sounds interesting.

It was just a dress I wore to my engagement party, which ended up being quite large. Just a floor length champagne gown but it was a little too open on the top, so I ended up purchasing the same fabric and having cap sleeves put on it. My sister has all my engagement photos on her computer (as my photographer did a no-show  ) so once I get them on my computer i'll post them. 

[missmolly]

I think its interesting that of all the assumptions to make, that everyone makes the assumption that the LW disapproved of the bride wearing a low cut dress and that she was preventing the bride from obtaining that.
 
It's almost as if she would have had to have written her story to say that she "provided every low cut gown in the store but none of them satisfied the bride" for people not to think that this was the point.

I have seen plenty of shows about wedding gowns where plus sized women have more than an ample selection of strapless, low cut, high cut gowns.
 
Ultimately, the goal of a salesperson is to sell the bride a dress, so I don't see what would be in it for the LW to deliberately keep the bride from finding what she is looking for.  I think it was a misunderstanding of what she was looking for.
 
I think its unfair to say that there is no prevailing "norm" for wedding dresses when that "norm" is evident just by looking at what bridal shops offer as wedding gowns.
 
But, usually the motivation behind the kind of dress a bride is looking for is fairly universal--it's their day, they want to look their best, etc, etc, etc.  Many are trying to satisfy a childhood dream of how they would look on their wedding day, etc.  There's not a single motivation, but it is most certainly unusual for it to be that the bride wants to look vulgar so she can keep the attentions of her unfaithful fiancé.

And while the judgement of what is vulgar varies depending on the circumstances, the motivation given in the story gives a lot of context for what the LW meant and what the bride was likely looking for.
 
I am sure that there are bridal shops in some major cities that specialize in dresses that many people would consider vulgar, but people go there to find what they need and they are upfront about what they are looking for and to them its not vulgar.
 
I don't think this bride was upfront about what she was looking for.  I think it caused a lot of confusion for the LW, who is someone who has a lot of experience dressing brides of all shapes and sizes.  This bride was asking for something very much out of her experience and she could not accommodate it.
 
I don't she is required to have experience with this type of request or to stock really low cut dresses any more than a shop with more daring styles has to satisfy brides who want something more traditional.
 
I also think that most brides who encounter salespeople who are deliberately trying to pigeonhole them into one type of style simply find another dress shop and that neither they nor the dress shop is rude in any way.
 
But, these folks had the run of the shop.  So, if you believe that the LW prevented her from finding what she wanted, where is that in the story?  I have to assume that if they can look at everything in the shop and they don't find what they are looking for, that it is not the LW's fault.
 
And given how they treated the LW when they could not find what they wanted, I can't fault her for not wanting to have anything to do with them.  And in light of the comment, I can't fault her for making a judgmental comment about divorce to juice up the story's entertainment value.

Audrey, I don't see where there was any miscommunication or ambiguity about what the bride wanted. The LW states clearly that the bride wanted something lower cut and showing cleavage, and that she and her family did so several times.

[PeasNCues]

I think if the kind of dress that the bride was looking for wasn't available - and again the quote "Finally, she got very frustrated that I was trying to politely choose things for her that were very lovely and feminine without being bawdy, which was obviously what she was craving," is what leads me to believe that the LW knew exactly what the bride wanted and was deliberately trying to steer her away - then everyone would have been better served if she said, "I'm sorry, I don't think this store carries what you are looking for."

[ShieldMaiden]

The job of a salesperson is to find someone the product they desire.  The salesperson, due to her personal tastes and feelings, refused to do that.  It certainly stands out that she is a lousy salesperson.  The bride was very clear and told the salesperson exactly what she wanted.  She wanted to show a lot of cleavage.  The salesperson disapproved, and thus even though it's apparent that she understood what the bride wanted, she refused to help find the desired dress and instead brought items more to her own personal taste for the reason she gave (that being big women should hide their bigness).  Every bridal shop I went too, even if they didn't have it in the store, had access to catalogs that could show other options.  The mother was crude and gross, the saleswoman was rude and judgmental.  

Even if the mother had not made her comment, there still would have been a lot of rudeness in the story, all of it on the part of the saleswoman.  I've encountered many sales people that thought they knew what was better for me than I did myself, even when I told them what I wanted.  I find it rude in all cases and will usually find myself another salesperson, if not another store entirely.

POD to the bolded.  I've read the story several times and this is what stands out to me.  I think that the comment from the MOB was made in bad taste but I think we're making an interesting assumption to assume that it was made without jest and serious.  For all we know she could have been joking or the 'another' was accidentally added to the story by the LW.  So unless the LW knew that the groom had cheated on the bride I think it's a moot point.

The bride wanted a low cut dress and the LW, instead of saying "I'm sorry, we don't have anything like that here" or looking for what the bride wanted, LW kept pulling dresses to her taste.  How do we know that the LW had a great taste in dresses?  How do we know LW's idea of "modest" for the "bigger" girl wasn't a high necked Victorian style dress? 

My story:  It reminds me of when I went dress shopping.  I specifically told the salesperson we were assigned that I did not want a train.  It was one of the first things I said:  white with no train.  The salesperson kept pulling dress after dress with trains.  When she pulled the fifth one with a train (and I'm talking Princess Diana style ten foot beaded train because, according to her, 'every bride should have a train on her dress') and I tried it on I stood in front of the mirror and said "it's not for me, I really don't want a train on my dress.  Can you look for ones without trains?"  Her reply was "stand there for five minutes and look at yourself and I'm sure you'll realize you want the train.  It looks beautiful."  I left the store without trying any more.  Despite the fact that I told her what style dress I wanted she completed refused to find one to my specifications.  Instead she was pulling dresses that were more to her taste.

If the bride wants to show some cleavage then it's up to her.  If the bride wants to wear a two piece midriff showing beaded monstrosity (which I have seen before), it's still up to her.  The salesperson's job is to just show the bride the dresses that she wants.

[Rosey]

The job of a salesperson is to find someone the product they desire.  The salesperson, due to her personal tastes and feelings, refused to do that.  It certainly stands out that she is a lousy salesperson.  The bride was very clear and told the salesperson exactly what she wanted.  She wanted to show a lot of cleavage.  The salesperson disapproved, and thus even though it's apparent that she understood what the bride wanted, she refused to help find the desired dress and instead brought items more to her own personal taste for the reason she gave (that being big women should hide their bigness).  Every bridal shop I went too, even if they didn't have it in the store, had access to catalogs that could show other options.  The mother was crude and gross, the saleswoman was rude and judgmental.  

Even if the mother had not made her comment, there still would have been a lot of rudeness in the story, all of it on the part of the saleswoman.  I've encountered many sales people that thought they knew what was better for me than I did myself, even when I told them what I wanted.  I find it rude in all cases and will usually find myself another salesperson, if not another store entirely.

POD to the bolded.  I've read the story several times and this is what stands out to me.  I think that the comment from the MOB was made in bad taste but I think we're making an interesting assumption to assume that it was made without jest and serious.  For all we know she could have been joking or the 'another' was accidentally added to the story by the LW.  So unless the LW knew that the groom had cheated on the bride I think it's a moot point.

The bride wanted a low cut dress and the LW, instead of saying "I'm sorry, we don't have anything like that here" or looking for what the bride wanted, LW kept pulling dresses to her taste.  How do we know that the LW had a great taste in dresses?  How do we know LW's idea of "modest" for the "bigger" girl wasn't a high necked Victorian style dress? 

My story:  It reminds me of when I went dress shopping.  I specifically told the salesperson we were assigned that I did not want a train.  It was one of the first things I said:  white with no train.  The salesperson kept pulling dress after dress with trains.  When she pulled the fifth one with a train (and I'm talking Princess Diana style ten foot beaded train because, according to her, 'every bride should have a train on her dress') and I tried it on I stood in front of the mirror and said "it's not for me, I really don't want a train on my dress.  Can you look for ones without trains?"  Her reply was "stand there for five minutes and look at yourself and I'm sure you'll realize you want the train.  It looks beautiful."  I left the store without trying any more.  Despite the fact that I told her what style dress I wanted she completed refused to find one to my specifications.  Instead she was pulling dresses that were more to her taste.

If the bride wants to show some cleavage then it's up to her.  If the bride wants to wear a two piece midriff showing beaded monstrosity (which I have seen before), it's still up to her.  The salesperson's job is to just show the bride the dresses that she wants.

ShieldMaiden, I think your story is a great example of what seems to have happened here. There is such a thing as acceptable suggestions, and then there is stubborn, rude salesperson. When I was trying on dresses, I found one I fell in love with: strapless, straight-fall skirt, minimal details. I tried it on and my grandmother, who is ordinarily a lovely person but was hurt that I wasn't having her make my dress, told me I looked fat and lumpy in it. After that, I waited almost a year (in an 18 month engagement) to look for another dress. When I did, I had no idea what to get. The salesperson asked me to try on just one dress with a big puffy skirt, just one, and said if I didn't like it, she wouldn't suggest another. I tried it on, loved it, and ordered it that day.  But the key difference here is that she really had brought me four other gowns that were what I thought I wanted.

[Lynnv]

They did their typical browsing and perusing, and I was very surprised the bride was having a lot of trouble finding what she wanted, since a lot of the dresses were quite lovely on her--ample figure and all. She kept pointing to dresses and asking if I had anything "lower cut" that "showed a lot of cleavage", which rather surprised me...most brides her size are trying to tug the things up to retain some sense of modesty.

The first thing that stands out to me is that the LW thinks that large brides should not wear low-cut gowns and show lots of cleavage.  Which is fine as a matter of taste, but is quite rude to attempt to enforce on another person...which is what she does in her next sentence.

But, right her, she basically says that, because the bride is 'ample' and wants to 'show a lot of cleavage' she must not want to 'retain some sense of modesty.'  I note that she isn't saying that no one should wear a low-cut sexy gown, bur rather that someone who is "ample" can't want wear a sexy gown without being immodest.  So-she was judgemental right off the bat here.

Finally, she got very frustrated that I was trying to politely choose things for her that were very lovely and feminine without being bawdy, which was obviously what she was craving.

I get frustrated when people insist on trying to choose things for me that I don't want as well.  We already know from the prelude to the story that the bride wanted something very low-cut and sexy (which LW feels is tacky on big women) and the LW insisted on bringing out things that would not meet the stated criteria.  LW felt that her taste trumped the bride's wishes, and that is all kinds of rude, IMO.   

In addition, she was deliberately ignoring the bride's requests.  She wasn't bringing out a few options and saying something like, "This is in line with what you asked for; however, I also think you should try on this style as I think it will suit you wonderfully."  Nor was she saying, "Here is a lovely gown that isn't quite what you are looking for, but we can modify it here and here to really make it suit your tastes."  Nor did she even say, "I'm afraid we don't carry anything with more cleavage than this, so I am afraid we can't help you today, but I wish you the best of luck and I hope you will keep us in mind if you decide one of the gowns here will work for you."  Nope, she basically brought out gowns that weren't what the bride wanted because she didn't like the idea of a big bawdy bride.  LW was extremely rude, and I would have been frustrated too.

When I go into a motorcycle shop and am looking for a sport-touring bike (big, fast, definitely not a beginner bike, and exactly what I like to ride), I am going to get frustrated and eventually snap if the salesperson insists on showing me cruisers (low, nowhere near as fast, handle entirely differently, and not at all to my taste-even though they are pretty) because he doesn't think that a big gal should ride 'that kind' of bike.  It is exactly the same kind of rudeness that LW displayed when she chose gowns, deliberately, that were not what the bride told her she wanted.

Her mother, too, was getting frustrated and started roving through the racks. "Don't you have anything that shows a lot of cleavage? She needs to keep her husband's attention up there!! Last thing she needs is him %&*$#!#^ another one of the bridesmaids!"

I can see why mom was getting frustrated.  It doesn't excuse the comment, though.  Mom was pretty rude and crass to make the comment in front of the saleswoman, even if it is the kind of joke that they have in-family.  If it was serious, then it was horrible to make the comment in front of the saleswoman, and it was quite rude to the bride, the groom and the bridesmaids.  No question on that part.

I will say that this is the kind of joke that my sister or my BFF and I could make with one another with no offense given or taken (yes-we can be quite crude with one another); however, I would never bring that out in front of another person, as it is not the sort of thing that I would accept from anyone else in my family or my circle of friends.

I was VERY glad they didn't find what it was they were looking for there. Perhaps a lingerie store? Sometimes I wonder if their time would have been better spent going ahead and picking up the divorce papers!

And here the LW lays out her own crude comments, which are fully as mean and nasty as anything the mother said.

[PeasNCues]

And here the LW lays out her own crude comments, which are fully as mean and nasty as anything the mother said.

But, the context is completely different.
 
The comments the mother made, she made in public in front of all concerned.  Completely different from making them here.

This is an public etiquette forum. The statement she made was rude, no matter what the forum, but on an etiquette forum anyone posting such comments should expect to be called out on it. No one should cast asperations on the state of someone else's relationship/marriage from one statement.

[Lynnv]

And here the LW lays out her own crude comments, which are fully as mean and nasty as anything the mother said.

But, the context is completely different.
 
The comments the mother made, she made in public in front of all concerned.  Completely different from making them here.

I agree-it is different (it is always different).  However, making rude and nasty comments of your own when you are complaining about someone else being rude and crass comes across as quite hypocritical, IMO. 

It also tells me a lot about her when she says "I was VERY glad they didn't find what they were looking for there."  Well-I would guess the bride was pretty glad too, since (with any luck) she found a bridal store with a salesperson who didn't think that big women showing cleavage were automatically bawdy and immodest.  Or who might at least TELL her that they didn't want to help her, instead of treating her to a parade of dresses that weren't what she asked for at all.

[jimithing]

And here the LW lays out her own crude comments, which are fully as mean and nasty as anything the mother said.

But, the context is completely different.
 
The comments the mother made, she made in public in front of all concerned.  Completely different from making them here.

I agree-it is different (it is always different).  However, making rude and nasty comments of your own when you are complaining about someone else being rude and crass comes across as quite hypocritical, IMO. 

It also tells me a lot about her when she says "I was VERY glad they didn't find what they were looking for there."  Well-I would guess the bride was pretty glad too, since (with any luck) she found a bridal store with a salesperson who didn't think that big women showing cleavage were automatically bawdy and immodest.  Or who might at least TELL her that they didn't want to help her, instead of treating her to a parade of dresses that weren't what she asked for at all.

I agree with Audrey on this. It doesn't sound like the LW actually made the divorce comment to the family. She made it while writing the story. I have seen similar thoughts and views expresses a hundred times over on many of the threads we have on the wedding board, when discussing bridezillas. Is it a really nice thing to say? No. But I just don't see it as a horrible offense. I see it as wondering outloud.

[PeasNCues]

And here the LW lays out her own crude comments, which are fully as mean and nasty as anything the mother said.

But, the context is completely different.
 
The comments the mother made, she made in public in front of all concerned.  Completely different from making them here.

I agree-it is different (it is always different).  However, making rude and nasty comments of your own when you are complaining about someone else being rude and crass comes across as quite hypocritical, IMO. 

It also tells me a lot about her when she says "I was VERY glad they didn't find what they were looking for there."  Well-I would guess the bride was pretty glad too, since (with any luck) she found a bridal store with a salesperson who didn't think that big women showing cleavage were automatically bawdy and immodest.  Or who might at least TELL her that they didn't want to help her, instead of treating her to a parade of dresses that weren't what she asked for at all.

I agree with Audrey on this. It doesn't sound like the LW actually made the divorce comment to the family. She made it while writing the story. I have seen similar thoughts and views expresses a hundred times over on many of the threads we have on the wedding board, when discussing bridezillas. Is it a really nice thing to say? No. But I just don't see it as a horrible offense. I see it as wondering outloud.

I had thought that it was considered unacceptable to make such comments on this forum?

[Lynnv]

And here the LW lays out her own crude comments, which are fully as mean and nasty as anything the mother said.

But, the context is completely different.
 
The comments the mother made, she made in public in front of all concerned.  Completely different from making them here.

I agree-it is different (it is always different).  However, making rude and nasty comments of your own when you are complaining about someone else being rude and crass comes across as quite hypocritical, IMO. 

It also tells me a lot about her when she says "I was VERY glad they didn't find what they were looking for there."  Well-I would guess the bride was pretty glad too, since (with any luck) she found a bridal store with a salesperson who didn't think that big women showing cleavage were automatically bawdy and immodest.  Or who might at least TELL her that they didn't want to help her, instead of treating her to a parade of dresses that weren't what she asked for at all.

I agree with Audrey on this. It doesn't sound like the LW actually made the divorce comment to the family. She made it while writing the story. I have seen similar thoughts and views expresses a hundred times over on many of the threads we have on the wedding board, when discussing bridezillas. Is it a really nice thing to say? No. But I just don't see it as a horrible offense. I see it as wondering outloud.

I can see that.  And I do agree (see above) that it is different to make the comment on an internet forum than it is to make it in person.

Despite that, I still think it is hypocritical to come on a board and complain about someone being crass and rude, only to make a crass and rude comment yourself.  Especially when your only complaint about the bride (the person you are making the nasty comment about, after all) is that her taste and yours don't happen to coincide.  Had she made the nasty comment about the (rude and crass) mom, I would have been more sympathetic.  Instead, she spent most of her letter complaining about the bride's taste (since most 'ample' women have the sense not to bare cleavage, in her world), bragging about not helping her ("I was VERY glad she didn't find anything there"), and generally trying to paint the bride as tacky so that we would assume her mother's rudeness would apply to the bride as well, even if the bride did nothing wrong other than offend the LW's sense of taste.

Of course (just to admit my own bias), I would also have been more sympathetic if the LW had not been so horribly judgemental and rude in the first place.

[DottyG]

I have seen similar thoughts and views expresses a hundred times over on many of the threads we have on the wedding board, when discussing bridezillas.

And, it's wrong and extremely rude "on many of the threads we have on the wedding board, when discussing bridezillas."  Not an excuse at all.

[RainhaDoTexugo]

The woman should have tried her best to give the bride what she wanted. If she didn't have it, she should have told them. What she did instead was waste their time and press on the bride dresses that were the opposite of what the bride wanted and was looking for. She was being rude and, in my opinion, annoying. I think the woman should choose another career.

I agree with this.  Even the letter writer said it was obvious what the bride wanted ("Finally, she got very frustrated that I was trying to politely choose things for her that were very lovely and feminine without being bawdy, which was obviously what she was craving.").  There's no indication, at all, that she misunderstood what the bride wanted, and every indication that she totally understood, and thought she knew better.  If a saleswoman had written and said that she'd accidentally angered a bride, because she didn't realize just HOW low cut she wanted the dress, but she'd been trying her best, it would be a different story.  If she discovered, after trying to find a dress according to the bride's requests, that the store just didn't have what she wanted, then she should have either discussed alteration options, or told her they didn't stock anything like that, and stop wasting her time.

When I buy my wedding dress, I really want the saleslady to pick out dresses she thinks will look good on me, based on her experience with previous brides.  I'm hoping she'll be able to pick out some hidden gems that I never would have considered.  But if I tell her I absolutely don't want a dress with only one strap, she'd better not bring me five dresses with only one strap.

[jimithing]

I have seen similar thoughts and views expresses a hundred times over on many of the threads we have on the wedding board, when discussing bridezillas.

And, it's wrong and extremely rude "on many of the threads we have on the wedding board, when discussing bridezillas."  Not an excuse at all.

Dotty, I didn't say it was an excuse. But it seems to be acceptable on many of the threads I've seen, so I'm confused as to how it's completely rude and out of line in this situation?

And perhaps it's the way it's worded. I think that if she said something along the lines of, "When the MOB said that, I honestly had to wonder if this marriage would be successful.", I think that may not have had such an abrasive effect.

[DottyG]

Dotty, I didn't say it was an excuse. But it seems to be acceptable on many of the threads I've seen, so I'm confused as to how it's completely rude and out of line in this situation?

It's NOT acceptable on many of the threads.  And, the people saying it in the threads need to be called on it as well.  Because it's not right - anywhere it's said.