Author Topic: My kid didn't party in your house update p. 10  (Read 22389 times)

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Hanna

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Re: My kid didn't party in your house
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2010, 07:54:59 PM »
I don't understand what principal requires that you refuse payment on behalf of your DD who did perform her duties simply because he's wrongfully accusing your older DD.

I also don't understand why you are asking your daughter questions like "where would you look for the vodka."  Her ability/inability to answer proves nothing.  I keep my vodka in the liquor cabinet and wouldn't answer "the freezer".   It sounds a little like you are still trying to gather evidence to prove her innocence.  Since you wholeheartedly believe she didn't do this then continuing to question her seems unfair.   

Slartibartfast

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Re: My kid didn't party in your house
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2010, 08:14:55 PM »
I suggest the next conversation be with your ODD.  Tell her you're more than happy to call her uncle and tell him she's not coming into work until he apologizes to her, and tell her that you're angry on her behalf that he's accusing her of lying and then acting like it's no big deal and he "forgave" her.  But also tell her that it's up to her whether she wants to quit or not, and you will totally support her decision.  You're willing to be "the bad guy" delivering her notice at work, if that's what she wants.

It sounds like she's feeling a lot of stress over this, and knowing that she has your unswerving support would probably help lift some of that stress.  It might even help her get the emotional strength to finish out the job - knowing she *could* quit and chose not to is different from feeling like she *had* to quit, KWIM?

AmberVolakis

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Re: My kid didn't party in your house
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2010, 08:33:59 PM »
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I understand how insulting it must be for your brother to accuse your daughters of this, but I really feel for him as well. I mean, think of it from his point of view. He entrusted his house to a teenager and came home to evidence of someone abusing his home and property. If his children are looking him in the eye and saying "we never gave anyone a key" and his nieces are looking him in the eye and saying "it wasn't us", he's really stuck between a rock and a hard place. It's easy to say "well, we can prove it and we trust our kids", but if he has no reason not to trust his OWN kids... in the end, it absolutely makes sense that he's going to trust his own child over someone else's. He must be beyond himself knowing that people were drinking in his home, possibly causing serious legal trouble for him.

POD. While everyone has offered good advice, I don't think it's fair to blame the brother too much. It was his house that was broken into and it was the OP's daughter who had taken the responsibility for house-sitting while her uncle was gone. The uncle seems to me to have every right to be upset. I know the OP understandably thinks that her kids are absolutely innocent but the victim in this situation (the brother) has the right to have his doubts considering that it was his niece who he entrusted with the care of the house in his absence, and she failed.

As for what happened, well, who knows. But it's not an etiquette faux pas for the brother to still have his doubts about his teenage nieces being involved when he knows that his own children were with him out of state and thus couldn't have held the party. If you look at it objectively and quite frankly, his kids making a copy of the key and giving it to their friends to party while they're gone seems much more far-fetched to me than one of the nieces either sneaking out or alerting their friends or some other kids in the neighborhood. In the end, the brother does have more ground to stand on considering it was his house and he had his own teenagers with him on the trip. Considering no one knows what really happened, I don't think the brother owes the OP an apology for trying to find out what happened. His house was broken into and he left the keys with his niece, which means her older teen sister not only knew the house was empty but had easy access to it. That doesn't mean she's guilty, but it means her uncle is right to consider her a suspect, as well as any teenager he may know who was in town at the time and had access to his keys.

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I asked DD today as a follow up test, "Where would you find alcohol in someone's house? " Answer: "I don't drink, so I wouldn't know." Me: "Where would you go if you did drink?" Her: "In the fridge, I guess. (where DH and I keep the beer/wine.) Me: "But what about vodka or tequila? Where would that be?" Her (pause..) "In the cabinet, I guess
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To me, it sounds like you are still on a crusade to "prove" your daughter's innocence and somehow "win" some sort of contest over your brother. Either you believe your daughter or you don't, but if you know she was elsewhere when the house was broken into, why would you bother to "test" her about the location of the vodka? Didn't you say before that you knew her location absolutely and she couldn't have done it? Was she either with you or at work, or somewhere that's totally verifiable?

If you are convinced of your daughter's innocence, then offer sympathy to your brother over the break-in and move on. It sounds like he is attempting to, but he has the right still have his suspicions. If you want him to prostrate at your daughter's feet, I don't think it's going to happen. And kudos to you for refusing any payment for your other daughter for watching the house - that to me is the right thing to do considering what happened.

Hanna

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Re: My kid didn't party in your house
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2010, 08:40:59 PM »
AmberVolaksis, I don't see how YDD watching the house means it's acceptable to accuse ODD of breaking in and having a party there.  Particularly when ODD has never done anything to indicate she is not trustworthy.  Considering someone a suspect is also very different than directly accusing them of doing something.  If you question one's character wrongly, you need to be prepared to accept the consequences in the form of a damaged rel@tionship.

I also believe that YDD fulfilled her duties when they contacted him to let him know someone had been in the house before the party, and he ignored her.  She was not being paid to stay there and keep watch, she was paid to check on the house. There is a big difference.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 09:06:14 PM by Hanna »

ShadesOfGrey

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Re: My kid didn't party in your house
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2010, 08:50:23 PM »
I don't understand what principal requires that you refuse payment on behalf of your DD who did perform her duties simply because he's wrongfully accusing your older DD.

I also don't understand why you are asking your daughter questions like "where would you look for the vodka."  Her ability/inability to answer proves nothing. 

I tend to agree with this.
Words mean more than what is set down on paper. It takes the human voice to infuse them with shades of deeper meaning. - Maya Angelou

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Balletmom

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Re: My kid didn't party in your house
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2010, 09:03:20 PM »
We won't accept payment from Uncle because he believes that we were negligent with his keys, and therefore, ODD and friends drank his liquor and partied in his bedroom.

We don't take money from people that accuse us of lying or not taking due diligence to find out the truth. It may sound odd today, but it's a cultural thing for DH and I.  It's why when DH's mother said terrible things to him a couple of years ago (an ongoing thing) and then sent him a check after Christmas with no other words, he shredded it.

It's a moot point since Brother didn't come by today and he made no mention of paying YDD.

As for asking DD about where vodka would be, I'm just bending over backwards to make sure I'm not in denial about this. The emptied vodka bottle was in the freezer, and I was just checking out my hunch that ODD has no idea you would ever find anything in the freezer. It's just a minor point, but it points more to the partiers being a) experienced ones or b) friends of Nephew.

I really do understand why my brother would question ODD. The thing is, we worked out at length, an exact time line of where ODD was, and where the key was, and verified the two nights she was at friends' houses. We also know, based on the time line, that she could not have taken the key and made a copy. ODD was also grounded from her car the latter half of the week, so she had limited mobility and it was very easy to confirm when she was away from home, with the other parents.

I am going to encourage ODD to go in for one day and get her last paycheck, take some treats for the office staff, and be done. I will call my father and tell him that she has dance team things for this week and that's it.

My brother will know very well why she's not coming in anymore.

He mentioned that he had a key "so well hidden" that no one could find it; he also has a long-term girlfriend he doesn't mention, but whom the office bookkeeper told ODD "Might come by the house."
I told him exactly that and just left it at that.

I would have reacted exactly the same as my brother, but I would have trusted him if he'd said he checked out his DD's whereabouts or his son's. There is obviously not the same level of trust on his side, which is a relationship deal-breaker.

I can understand why Brother felt as he did, and I don't have a problem with making sure ODD understands that (or tries to.) That's why we worked so hard, and to such lengths, to make sure we weren't just in denial and taking ODD's word.

However, in the end, it was a waste of time as Brother had already decided that it had to be ODD because we had a key to his house. The fact that ODD's behavior in the past and that we verified her location and ability to have done this, were dismissed. We even made it a point to tell him that someone had been in the house, and he dismissed it when I told him.

And that's a deal breaker for a relationship.


Hanna

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Re: My kid didn't party in your house
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2010, 09:19:13 PM »
I guess I'm getting the impression that you have at least some bit of reason that you felt you needed to verify all of this - beyond just asking ODD.  And I understand that.

But given that, and that I know for a fact that kids can do all kinds of things without their parents believing it physically possible, I wouldn't be so quick to let this end your rel@tionship with your brother.

Lack of car, spending the night at a friends, not knowing vodka is kept sometimes in the freezer (along with ice, which we used in abundance as teens), grounding, etc.  None of this stuff really inhibits a resourceful kid that much.  We sneaked out, walked, drank, went to parties, sneakck back in, stayed with friend's whose parents where out of town, etc.  Didn't even have cellphones. We never got caught doing any of this. And at least one participant in all this was a DARE member.

I'm not saying you are wrong, just that if you weren't incensed at him suspecting her in the first place, I don't really know that it's worthwhile to be angry because he thinks you might be wrong because it is always a possibility.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 09:39:48 PM by Hanna »

ShadesOfGrey

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Re: My kid didn't party in your house
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2010, 09:34:38 PM »
As for asking DD about where vodka would be, I'm just bending over backwards to make sure I'm not in denial about this. The emptied vodka bottle was in the freezer, and I was just checking out my hunch that ODD has no idea you would ever find anything in the freezer. It's just a minor point, but it points more to the partiers being a) experienced ones or b) friends of Nephew.

So I believe you, and your ODD.  But I would be careful about pointing to this as further "evidence" of the fact that she didnt drink/didnt party there.  Many people believe that kids are capable of lying (not saying your DD is, just that that's the first thing someone else would think of to discredit this conversation).  On top of that, the fact that she doesnt know that vodka is kept in the freezer has no bearing on the issue it doesnt mean she didnt party there.  Presumably there were others in the house and *they* could have opened the freezer (for any number of reasons, really) and found the vodka.  Also, the fact that the emptied vodka bottle was found in the freezer doesnt necessarily point to "experienced" partiers.  Just the fact that the freezer was opened.  Which could happen for a number of reasons when people are breaking and entering/throwing an unauthorized party.  

I say this, not to attack you or your DD's story, just to say, as an outsider, this line of questioning with your daughter does not actually prove what you want it to prove, and may make you look like you are in denial (by clinging to something that is flimsy at best).  Since we here know that not to be the case, I just want to bring it to your attention how it may look if you relay this to someone.  

I really think you should just let this lie unless he addresses it again in some way - not forget about it, as clearly the rel@tionship is damaged, but I think going on the offensive in any way (other than modifying your own rel@tionship with him) will only serve to hurt you and your DD. (hugs) I wish this wasnt happening to your DD.  
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ShadesOfGrey

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Re: My kid didn't party in your house
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2010, 09:37:26 PM »
I also agree with this part of hanna's post:

Quote
I'm not saying you are wrong, just that if you weren't incensed at him suspecting her in the first place, I don't really know that it's worthwhile to be angry because he thinks you might be wrong because it is always a possibility.
Words mean more than what is set down on paper. It takes the human voice to infuse them with shades of deeper meaning. - Maya Angelou

I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. - Maya Angelou

June24

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Re: My kid didn't party in your house
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2010, 10:40:22 PM »
We won't accept payment from Uncle because he believes that we were negligent with his keys, and therefore, ODD and friends drank his liquor and partied in his bedroom.

We don't take money from people that accuse us of lying or not taking due diligence to find out the truth. It may sound odd today, but it's a cultural thing for DH and I.  It's why when DH's mother said terrible things to him a couple of years ago (an ongoing thing) and then sent him a check after Christmas with no other words, he shredded it.

It's a moot point since Brother didn't come by today and he made no mention of paying YDD.

As for asking DD about where vodka would be, I'm just bending over backwards to make sure I'm not in denial about this. The emptied vodka bottle was in the freezer, and I was just checking out my hunch that ODD has no idea you would ever find anything in the freezer. It's just a minor point, but it points more to the partiers being a) experienced ones or b) friends of Nephew.

I really do understand why my brother would question ODD. The thing is, we worked out at length, an exact time line of where ODD was, and where the key was, and verified the two nights she was at friends' houses. We also know, based on the time line, that she could not have taken the key and made a copy. ODD was also grounded from her car the latter half of the week, so she had limited mobility and it was very easy to confirm when she was away from home, with the other parents.

I am going to encourage ODD to go in for one day and get her last paycheck, take some treats for the office staff, and be done. I will call my father and tell him that she has dance team things for this week and that's it.

My brother will know very well why she's not coming in anymore.

He mentioned that he had a key "so well hidden" that no one could find it; he also has a long-term girlfriend he doesn't mention, but whom the office bookkeeper told ODD "Might come by the house."
I told him exactly that and just left it at that.

I would have reacted exactly the same as my brother, but I would have trusted him if he'd said he checked out his DD's whereabouts or his son's. There is obviously not the same level of trust on his side, which is a rel@tionship deal-breaker.

I can understand why Brother felt as he did, and I don't have a problem with making sure ODD understands that (or tries to.) That's why we worked so hard, and to such lengths, to make sure we weren't just in denial and taking ODD's word.

However, in the end, it was a waste of time as Brother had already decided that it had to be ODD because we had a key to his house. The fact that ODD's behavior in the past and that we verified her location and ability to have done this, were dismissed. We even made it a point to tell him that someone had been in the house, and he dismissed it when I told him.

And that's a deal breaker for a rel@tionship.



To the bolded: I don't see why you're trying to shield you brother from his father's annoyance. Maybe grandpa should know about how his son is treating his granddaughter.

PeterM

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Re: My kid didn't party in your house
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2010, 10:50:54 PM »
POD. While everyone has offered good advice, I don't think it's fair to blame the brother too much. It was his house that was broken into and it was the OP's daughter who had taken the responsibility for house-sitting while her uncle was gone. The uncle seems to me to have every right to be upset. I know the OP understandably thinks that her kids are absolutely innocent but the victim in this situation (the brother) has the right to have his doubts considering that it was his niece who he entrusted with the care of the house in his absence, and she failed.

She didn't fail, though. Unless she was hired to keep the property every single minute of every single day, which I'm fairly sure the OP would have mentioned, she did everything she was supposed to do. For instance, when they found evidence that someone else had been in the house they alerted the owner. He chose to ignore the problem. Unless the daughter was paid to force him to change his mind when he made bad decisions, she did not fail in her duties in any way, shape or form.

Master_Edward

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Re: My kid didn't party in your house
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2010, 11:12:37 PM »
All I can say is I'm very sorry this whole incident has ruined your family's relationship with your brother.

Ed.

Balletmom

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Re: My kid didn't party in your house
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2010, 11:48:39 PM »
All I can say is I'm very sorry this whole incident has ruined your family's rel@tionship with your brother.

Ed.
'

Thanks Ed. I am not sure my brother fully understands or appreciates the extent to which both of my daughters will feel angry about him in the future.

As for letting my father know, I doubt it would be worthwhile. My father would probably side with my brother; and younger DD is already is his favorite over older DD. We have a dysfunctional family; my parents have for years established favorites with the grandchildren.

My only e-hell question at this point is whether or not it's appropriate to pursue the matter fi=urhter with my brother



noexitwounds

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Re: My kid didn't party in your house
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2010, 01:21:01 AM »
All I can say is I'm very sorry this whole incident has ruined your family's rel@tionship with your brother.
Thanks Ed. I am not sure my brother fully understands or appreciates the extent to which both of my daughters will feel angry about him in the future. [...] My only e-hell question at this point is whether or not it's appropriate to pursue the matter furhter with my brother

I really wanted to address this because some earlier posters have spoken about how they could understand your brother's reticence to believe ODD's innocence even with proof and how it'd be unfortunate to allow this to end the rel@tionship whole sale. I want to make it clear that I am not trying to call these posters out, I just want to offer an alternate perspective that deals directly with what they're saying. I've been reading ehell for about a year now and have been a member since October. I also read a lot of archives because I have a job with a lot of downtime and no 'net policy.  ;) You've written about the Balletgirls a lot, both separately and together, in a variety of situations, enough that there's a pretty consistent picture of how they behave/what behavior you'd accept from them. Unless you're lying, unintentionally or otherwise, or completely in denial about who your own daughters are (I find either of these options highly unlikely) there's a history here to rely on. /Disclaimer-y Explanation

From the picture you've painted I can see how ODD must be (probably quietly) furious and embarrassed that her uncle, who sees her often, would not just think of her this way but be unwilling to admit he misjudged once you'd done your due diligence (plus some) in independent verification. I also see why you would do such a thorough job in verifying: 1. For Dorkface, to show him that ODD wasn't involved. 2. Because honesty and integrity are such important qualities in your household (I'm just guessing that your dysfunctional family has lying issues) you wanted to reassure ODD you would get to the truth and defend her if/when the truth backs up her honesty. (Please, correct me if I'm wrong.) It's not about having more and more evidence you can shove in your brother's face but about reinforcing your values.

And then what her Uncle taught her is that even if you're willing to look at things objectively and understand why others might make an accusation, even if you're honest, and even the evidence shows that you're telling the truth it won't matter. And that's the antithesis of every value about honestly she has/your family has. If it were a (non-related) boss or a clerk at a store it'd be bad enough, for it to be an uncle she sees regularly it is a betrayal and violation that goes far past just doubting whether you (Balletparents) had the full story. It's telling her that her values don't matter to him at all. And when you learn someone doesn't respect your values and will act as if you don't even have those values it's not the sort of thing a rel@tionship recovers from. Dorkface doesn't see this. Then to add insult to injury he's "punishing" (by not paying) YDD under the guise of her not fulfilling her responsibilities at house-sitting when people here have pointed out exactly why that isn't true. YDD's black/white world view isn't even that much of a factor. Dorkface is being hypocritical, which is also the root of the problem with ODD, and doubting YDD's integrity (to follow up on what she agreed to when accepting the position) which, hey, is also at the root of the problem with ODD. On its own it might be okay, if YDD weren't so black/white, but together it just shows how Dorkface sees your DDs and the picture ain't pretty.

And now he's going to go along as if nothing ever happened.

For that reason I think it is appropriate to not let this matter rest quite yet with Dorkface. Namely, if the Balletgirls give him the cut-direct (or, as close as they can and keep family harmony) he might try to provoke things because he thinks *they're* the ones overreacting. And that would put your DDs in a very awkward (emotionally and etiquette-ly) position, not to mention any bystanders at the time.

So, I think you need to take Dorkface aside later this week and explain to him that you (Balletparents) and the Balletgirls are not uncomfortable with how this situation was resolved. Explain what I wrote above to him (unless I was way off base?) about why this destroyed the Balletgirls trust in him. If he tries to cut off about how ODD might have done it, find a good place to intercept and say "It's no longer about who was in your house. It's about the fact that when you were given proof you wouldn't even give ODD the benefit of the doubt. The Balletgirls are, in our opinion justifiably, worried that spending time around you or your things might led to another accusation you won't believe them about either and they're not willing to risk that at this point. I thought it polite to let you know that this is why the Balletgirls will be acting differently around you and I'm asking you to be gracious about it and leave it, and them, alone."

Normally I wouldn't advocate telling a person you don't want to deal with them again/for the time being but in this case, because he's family and because of prior rel@tionship patterns, I think doing it this way might be less dramalicious in the end than letting Dorkface react in a non-controlled environment. I also wanted to say that I'm sorry Dorkface did this to the Balletgirls and your family in general, ruining the rel@tionship in the process. Often times in dysfunctional families there's a point where you go from being willing to manage the dysfunction because the blowout would be worse than the current situation to deciding the blowout would be worth it after all. It sounds like you found that point with Dorkface.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 02:47:22 AM by noexitwounds »
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sammycat

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Re: My kid didn't party in your house
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2010, 02:44:40 AM »
He mentioned that he had a key "so well hidden" that no one could find it; he also has a long-term girlfriend he doesn't mention, but whom the office bookkeeper told ODD "Might come by the house."
I told him exactly that and just left it at that.

Did he respond at all to mention of the girlfriend?  Does she have children?  If so, could they have used the key/house?  If even a staff member thinks it's a possibility that the GF could have called by then I think brother has a responsibility to check it out.

As to whether Balletdaughter should return to work or not, I can see both sides of the argument.  Either way, I see no reason to hide this from your dad.  If she doesn't return, then I don't see any reason to cover for her uncle's accusations.  If she does return, it might be wise to give him a heads up, in case things become tense at the office.

I would be furious in your position.  

Also, great post from noexitwounds.  She brought up some very good points.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 02:46:17 AM by sammycat »