Author Topic: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives  (Read 17338 times)

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Granny Takes a Trip

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Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2010, 03:05:02 PM »

Good point. However, I still think that if the dissenting poster has seen that they are in a minority, they need to build their argument a little more, and explain. Again, the threads I am thinking of (which I did not actually post in) had a very brusque 'post and run' feel.

Maybe it does feel that way to you. Maybe it is that way. But as scuba dog posted, eHell isn't going to make rules about every irritating, unhelpful posting situation, because we already have two very good rules in place:

Quote
Irritating People: Someone, sometime in this forum will annoy the bejeebers out of you. Adults will try to resolve it first in Private Messaging or email, children have spats on the forum that can get one or both parties gagged or banned.  Mods are not here to play Mother to people who will not exercise self control in mentally ignoring irritating people. And we really don’t want to know who you have placed on “Ignore”.

Scritzy's Coke Rule applies:
Scritzy’s Coke Rule:

1. If a post annoys me, count to ten before replying.
2. If a post angers me, count to a hundred.
3. If a post infuriates me, shut down the computer and drink Coke.
And btw, Scritzy’s Coke Rule was originally meant to be applied quietly to oneself, without announcing your reaction that you'll soon be imbibing.

It would be 'nice' if everyone were perfectly polite, all the time, and made only perfectly clear, cogent and helpful posts, but I actually find those irritating, annoying and sometimes downright unpleasant posts to be equally helpful. If I can't meet an anonomous post on an internet forum with eqanimity, how do you think I'll do out in the real world, with possibly more at stake than making my point? This forum has turned out to be not only a repository of advice on ettiquette, but also a 'training ground' of sorts for the types of people and situations I may meet IRL.

JMO, YMMV 8)

IDK, I'm not really like that though. I'm not saying you're wrong, or anything-as you say, everyone's different. But in IRL, I tend to be too easily put upon, and part of the reason I come to e-hell is to find ways to be more assertive. IRL, I have two settings-overmeek, and very belligerent.  I think assertivness is something hard won, and I find e-hell very useful for finding out how to deal with situations. In my own threads, it would have to be a landslide majority of posters telling me I was wrong about something to make me rethink, and I mean a lanslide, like a 'snake in a restaurant' thread. But I digress, as I was not talking about my own threads in this OP. However, one's own experience feeds into one's feelings, I guess. I suppose I am very wary of telling people they are overreacting, and I dislike telling people that they have been rude, unless it is egregious.  But that deals with content, when what I am really concerned about is tone. One useful thing that has come out of this thread for me is the knowledge that one can report posts-I was always leery of doing that before, it seemed a bit playground-ish. But now I realise that well repsected posters do it, I can always just do that in future.

ETA. I have just read the thread that I think goes with this one, the 'seeking validation' thread.  My feelings on this are complicated, but I think that there is a difference between a loud vent, and seeking helpful opinions. I also think that posters who disagree with an OP cannot have it both ways. If the OP is not allowed to seek validation, and is supposed to be open to having their view of the situation turned around, then surely that should be true for the opposing poster, kwim? I mean, I don't think any poster in a thread is owed the OP agreeing with or even acknowledging them. There is a difference between venting, and cherrypicking responses.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 03:15:54 PM by Like Any Other Candidate »
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Scuba_Dog

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Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2010, 03:43:20 PM »
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion. 

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM. 

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment? 

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.


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Granny Takes a Trip

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Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2010, 03:48:34 PM »
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion. 

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM. 

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment? 

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.




I don't feel that way at all. I am also far from the first poster to start such a thread. I also am not talking about particular posters, but rather a trend.
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Lisbeth

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Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2010, 03:49:16 PM »
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion.  

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM.  

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment?  

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.

I think some of the reason people don't report things to the moderators is because the moderators would prefer that we posters handle it as much as possible, and because it can (not always, but can) smack to them of "Maaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmaaaaaaaa, Poster hurt my feelings!" which is childish and immature.  

Also, I think that those of us who have problems with the phrasings that get used would simply rather the people who use those phrasings understand the effects they can have but don't really want to cause trouble for other posters-they just want them to stop posting things that have negative effects on them or, at least, posting in negative ways.  

Plus, since people come and go from the forum, it could be helpful to let new people (and returning old people who haven't posted for a while) know about issues and things that are sticky points by means of these threads.
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jimithing

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Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2010, 03:49:32 PM »
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion. 

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM. 

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment? 

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.


I agree. And it seems like there have been a few of these kinds of threads, recently.

OP, I saw a recent thread where you told a person they were being "judgey." I'm not sure how that's any different than telling a poster that they are overreacting or being too sensitive. FWIW, I didn't think your tone was rude, or that it was out of line for you to say that, but that feels very similar to me to what you have brought up here.

Scuba_Dog

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Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2010, 03:54:21 PM »
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion. 

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM. 

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment? 

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.




I don't feel that way at all. I am also far from the first poster to start such a thread. I also am not talking about particular posters, but rather a trend.

But, you are talking about certain posters, otherwise what would you be posting about?  If it's a trend, it's a trend you see in the postings of certain people.  You have even referenced a thread, that you don't want to identify, but have acknowledged with another participant in this thread.  

LAC, I think you can place your trust in the very capable hands of the Moderators, who I'm sure, if they notice a rude trend, will nip it in the bud.


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Scuba_Dog

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Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2010, 03:57:03 PM »
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion.  

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM.  

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment?  

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.

I think some of the reason people don't report things to the moderators is because the moderators would prefer that we posters handle it as much as possible, and because it can (not always, but can) smack to them of "Maaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmaaaaaaaa, Poster hurt my feelings!" which is childish and immature.  

Also, I think that those of us who have problems with the phrasings that get used would simply rather the people who use those phrasings understand the effects they can have but don't really want to cause trouble for other posters-they just want them to stop posting things that have negative effects on them or, at least, posting in negative ways.  

Plus, since people come and go from the forum, it could be helpful to let new people (and returning old people who haven't posted for a while) know about issues and things that are sticky points by means of these threads.

RE, the bolded.  Which is why I also added in the two very valuable forum rules about irritating people and the Coke rule.  Use those, if you think the post goes beyond even those rules, then report it.
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Granny Takes a Trip

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Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2010, 03:57:40 PM »
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion. 

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM. 

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment? 

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.


I agree. And it seems like there have been a few of these kinds of threads, recently.

OP, I saw a recent thread where you told a person they were being "judgey." I'm not sure how that's any different than telling a poster that they are overreacting or being too sensitive. FWIW, I didn't think your tone was rude, or that it was out of line for you to say that, but that feels very similar to me to what you have brought up here.

Touche :) I'm actually quite enjoying this discussion, BTW. I certainly didn't start it to be contentious or unpleasant, so I hope no one took it that way.  For a start, I don't actually think it is rude to say someone is too sensitive. I think it is a bit off to say it without a full explanation of why, though. In my 'judgey' post, I gave a long explanation.
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Granny Takes a Trip

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Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2010, 04:00:34 PM »
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion. 

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM. 

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment? 

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.




I don't feel that way at all. I am also far from the first poster to start such a thread. I also am not talking about particular posters, but rather a trend.

But, you are talking about certain posters, otherwise what would you be posting about?  If it's a trend, it's a trend you see in the postings of certain people.  You have even referenced a thread, that you don't want to identify, but have acknowledged with another participant in this thread.  

LAC, I think you can place your trust in the very capable hands of the Moderators, who I'm sure, if they notice a rude trend, will nip it in the bud.




Yes, but I am not talking about 'repeat offenders', kwim? I mean, it is a trend, but not the same people doing it again and again, in which case I would quite agree that it would be PA to post a thread about. In general though, I think your advice about mods is good, and it is something I had not considered, so thank you :)
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DangerMouth

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Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2010, 04:07:46 PM »
I'm not even sure what your point is in starting this thread, anymore. It's an internet forum. We try to stay on topic and post our opinions politely. Mostly that happens.

Sometimes people get so caught up passionately defending their opinions, they may forget to be polite. When that happens, there are ways of dealing with it: you can choose to post a gentle reminder, or you can report to mods.

I can, off the top of my head, think of 4 threads in the past week or so where the OP was told she was over-reacting. Two were pretty much unanimous that this was so, one was split about 50%, and the other was about 90% for 'over-reacting'. In none of these threads did I notice any egregious rudeness (tho it's possible I missed something).

But the point is there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying, "I don't see it that way, I think you are over-reacting", even if the poster doesn't go onto explain for 4 paragraphs why they feel this way. And even if that poster is the only one on a 12 page thread to say it. Sure, you can then look at the post and think, feel, or even say, "IMO, that wasn't very usefull advice", but there is still nothing wrong with someone stating that "IMO, this isn't rude, or my hill to die on."

In fact, I'm going to say it now, about this whole thread: I don't see it that way, I think you are over-reacting.

ETA: 8 new posts while I was typing. Totally podding Scuba Dog.

Allyson

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Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2010, 04:10:11 PM »

Good point. However, I still think that if the dissenting poster has seen that they are in a minority, they need to build their argument a little more, and explain. Again, the threads I am thinking of (which I did not actually post in) had a very brusque 'post and run' feel.

Hmm...not trying to be contentious here, I might genuinely not understand. Why would it matter whether or not the poster is in a minority? I mean..why would it be better for a poster to say 'hey, you're overreacting' (or whatever the exact phrase) if other people have given advice, than if everyone else has agreed it's not worth reacting to. I think it's good for people to be able to disagree with the consensus, even if it's not something that some people would find useful. Gives a variety of perspectives, and such.

Scuba_Dog

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Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2010, 04:14:12 PM »
There is nothing “play-groundish” about reporting a violation.  If you look at the other threads in this area, you will see that most of them conclude with that suggestion.  

I have a question though.  Aren’t these threads sort of PA, in and of themselves?  Do they seem gossipy and preachy to anyone else?  Or even like venting/ranting?

I guess I’m bothered by the idea of using this folder to vent about the posting style of other members of the forum.  I think if you don’t like the posting style of a person or people, you could address that with them via PM.  

There’s something about coming here and saying “Certain posters” do this and it’s rude.  Or, “Things were said in a thread I don’t want to name, and I thought it was rude.”  I mean, how can anyone *really* know what or who you are talking about to make a clear assessment?  

And then, it seems like some people know what/who you’re talking about but others don’t, so then it’s like some sort of “insider” information between a select few participants of the thread.  Then some people are commenting about the specifics and others in general terms.  Wouldn’t it be easier to just review the rules and report to a MOD if you feel there is a violation?  Or, use one of the two rules quoted earlier?

I’m probably not expressing this right, but in general, these threads feel really off to me, especially here.  It’s only my opinion, YMMV, of course.


I agree. And it seems like there have been a few of these kinds of threads, recently.

OP, I saw a recent thread where you told a person they were being "judgey." I'm not sure how that's any different than telling a poster that they are overreacting or being too sensitive. FWIW, I didn't think your tone was rude, or that it was out of line for you to say that, but that feels very similar to me to what you have brought up here.

Touche :) I'm actually quite enjoying this discussion, BTW. I certainly didn't start it to be contentious or unpleasant, so I hope no one took it that way.  For a start, I don't actually think it is rude to say someone is too sensitive. I think it is a bit off to say it without a full explanation of why, though. In my 'judgey' post, I gave a long explanation.

So, if someone says something purposefully rude, but then gives an explanation, it's OK?  

edited.  I've said what I wanted to and what I had added probably wasn't necessary.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 04:19:42 PM by Scuba_Dog »
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DangerMouth

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Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2010, 04:15:55 PM »

Good point. However, I still think that if the dissenting poster has seen that they are in a minority, they need to build their argument a little more, and explain. Again, the threads I am thinking of (which I did not actually post in) had a very brusque 'post and run' feel.

Hmm...not trying to be contentious here, I might genuinely not understand. Why would it matter whether or not the poster is in a minority? I mean..why would it be better for a poster to say 'hey, you're overreacting' (or whatever the exact phrase) if other people have given advice, than if everyone else has agreed it's not worth reacting to. I think it's good for people to be able to disagree with the consensus, even if it's not something that some people would find useful. Gives a variety of perspectives, and such.

Something I've seen a number of times: Op makes a post. First dozen posts are all happy agreement. Then somebody posts a dissenting opinion, and all of a sudden, others, who might have been hesitant about bucking the trend, jump in with similar dissenting opinions. But I agree that even it's just one person, there's nothing wrong with a dissenting opinion, as long as it's done politely.

hyzenthlay

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Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2010, 04:27:43 PM »
Something I've seen a number of times: Op makes a post. First dozen posts are all happy agreement. Then somebody posts a dissenting opinion, and all of a sudden, others, who might have been hesitant about bucking the trend, jump in with similar dissenting opinions. But I agree that even it's just one person, there's nothing wrong with a dissenting opinion, as long as it's done politely.

Yep. Sometimes there's a bit of group think, and one dissent leads to a whole other perspective on the situation. And sometimes the dissent leads to more moderate suggestions and better plans of action.

Scaling back from 'initiate the CUT-DIRECT' to 'practice being cool and polite.'

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Re: Offering unwanted advice or perspectives
« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2010, 04:49:16 PM »
I don't feel that way at all. I am also far from the first poster to start such a thread. I also am not talking about particular posters, but rather a trend.

This "trend" is not new.  I've been on the forum for several years, and this is just how it has pretty much always been.  It is generally understood that when one asks for advice, one takes the good with the bad.  There always have been (and will probably always be) posters whose tones are more abrupt or short than others.  I know that for myself, I don't tend to write with a lot of flourish and I don't approach every situation with kid gloves.  And I don't think I'm all that unusual.