Author Topic: Thoughts on thoughts  (Read 16091 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

hyzenthlay

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 8751
Re: Thoughts on thoughts
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2011, 01:24:44 PM »
I still think that people are entitled to their thoughts.

And I think people on this board are entitled to talk about those thoughts. If you really don't want feedback, don't post.

DangerMouth

  • Work as if you were in the early days of a better nation.
  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 7482
  • Everybody Gets Ice Cream!
Re: Thoughts on thoughts
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2011, 01:28:32 PM »
I don't think we, as a society, owe it to each other to 'think the best' (something I have seen opined here, a lot).

It's not directly a matter of etiquette, but neither is much of what is discussed on the site.

We've seen people on the board (and many a story in the classic section) where the poster is ready to flay someone over a perceived violation. When really, no violation occurred. Now they may never have let that slip to the outside world other then on e-hell, but if they post the story looking for vindication I think it's allowable to enlighten them about what others think of their reaction.

I do agree that we are not required to 'think the best' but I also think it's good practice not to 'think the worst.'

I still think that people are entitled to their thoughts. Not talking about this particular thread any more, but one thing I have seen a lot of on here is people making long and very complicated excuses for people who an OP has seen as rude. 'Maybe they are having a bad day/have an undiagnosed illness/have something in their past to make them oversensitive' And so on it goes. I sometimes find ironic that the same people who are making all these excuses for the other people, seem to then hold the OP to a very high standard.

Well, I have to agree with you there. It makes me a little nuts at the hoops some people will jump through to come up with reasons to excuse rudeness. Because, if there's a good enough reason, then it's not really rude? I disgree with that. While a reason my explain the rudeness, it doesn't make it not rude, IMO.

Granny Takes a Trip

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1506
Re: Thoughts on thoughts
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2011, 01:29:50 PM »
Yes, but not to call them 'rude' or really to tell the OP that they are wrong for having them. Again, no longer talking specifically about the thread which prompted this one, but the 'oh you should be more charitable' theme is ever recurring here. I make no apology for objecting to this, and pointing out that 'being more charitable' is not always a good thing. I think that this will just have to be one of those 'agree to disagree' situations.

ETA. Was replying to hyzenthlay.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 01:31:38 PM by Granny Takes a Trip »
I have a thousand parents. Sadly they
Dissolve in their own virtues and recede.

MrsJWine

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 8812
  • I have an excessive fondness for parentheses.
    • Wallydraigle
Re: Thoughts on thoughts
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2011, 01:49:50 PM »
I, too, become annoyed with the dozens of obscure possibilities for why a person may have been rude.  I think it's safe to assume that most of the time, when someone is rude, it's just because they're rude.

This was not such a case, IMO.  Dozens of us would have done the same thing for completely normal and not-rude reasons.  There were no gymnastics or obscure medical conditions involved.


I have a blog.  I hate that word.


Utah

Two Ravens

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2317
  • One for sorrow, Two for mirth...
Re: Thoughts on thoughts
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2011, 01:50:11 PM »
I don't think we, as a society, owe it to each other to 'think the best' (something I have seen opined here, a lot).

It's not directly a matter of etiquette, but neither is much of what is discussed on the site.

We've seen people on the board (and many a story in the classic section) where the poster is ready to flay someone over a perceived violation. When really, no violation occurred. Now they may never have let that slip to the outside world other then on e-hell, but if they post the story looking for vindication I think it's allowable to enlighten them about what others think of their reaction.

I do agree that we are not required to 'think the best' but I also think it's good practice not to 'think the worst.'

I still think that people are entitled to their thoughts. Not talking about this particular thread any more, but one thing I have seen a lot of on here is people making long and very complicated excuses for people who an OP has seen as rude. 'Maybe they are having a bad day/have an undiagnosed illness/have something in their past to make them oversensitive' And so on it goes. I sometimes find ironic that the same people who are making all these excuses for the other people, seem to then hold the OP to a very high standard.

Well, I have to agree with you there. It makes me a little nuts at the hoops some people will jump through to come up with reasons to excuse rudeness. Because, if there's a good enough reason, then it's not really rude? I disgree with that. While a reason my explain the rudeness, it doesn't make it not rude, IMO.

Well, I understand you feeling that way, but it may come down to a different way of looking at things.  In general, I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.  So it does kind of bother me when a poster tells us about an open ended situation incolcing someone they don't know (well or at all), and everyone jumps in says, "CRUD MONKEYS! what a horrible person to do this to you" and "How rude!"  Sometime I think it could benefit other people to consider that maybe someone didn't purposly set out to ruin their lunch/day/whatever. Sometimes annoying things happen.

Personally, I think stewing about how rude people are to you isn't helpful, or healthy

Granny Takes a Trip

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1506
Re: Thoughts on thoughts
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2011, 01:56:04 PM »
I don't think we, as a society, owe it to each other to 'think the best' (something I have seen opined here, a lot).

It's not directly a matter of etiquette, but neither is much of what is discussed on the site.

We've seen people on the board (and many a story in the classic section) where the poster is ready to flay someone over a perceived violation. When really, no violation occurred. Now they may never have let that slip to the outside world other then on e-hell, but if they post the story looking for vindication I think it's allowable to enlighten them about what others think of their reaction.

I do agree that we are not required to 'think the best' but I also think it's good practice not to 'think the worst.'

I still think that people are entitled to their thoughts. Not talking about this particular thread any more, but one thing I have seen a lot of on here is people making long and very complicated excuses for people who an OP has seen as rude. 'Maybe they are having a bad day/have an undiagnosed illness/have something in their past to make them oversensitive' And so on it goes. I sometimes find ironic that the same people who are making all these excuses for the other people, seem to then hold the OP to a very high standard.

Well, I have to agree with you there. It makes me a little nuts at the hoops some people will jump through to come up with reasons to excuse rudeness. Because, if there's a good enough reason, then it's not really rude? I disgree with that. While a reason my explain the rudeness, it doesn't make it not rude, IMO.

Well, I understand you feeling that way, but it may come down to a different way of looking at things.  In general, I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.  So it does kind of bother me when a poster tells us about an open ended situation incolcing someone they don't know (well or at all), and everyone jumps in says, "CRUD MONKEYS! what a horrible person to do this to you" and "How rude!"  Sometime I think it could benefit other people to consider that maybe someone didn't purposly set out to ruin their lunch/day/whatever. Sometimes annoying things happen.

Personally, I think stewing about how rude people are to you isn't helpful, or healthy

It may not be healthy, for you. But for me, I feel it isn't healthy to dismiss all rudeness as 'maybe they were having a bad day'. I tend to get my 'revenge' on rude jerks by having a good laugh about them, at home. (There is one guy at my University who is the rudest person you will ever meet. But he is great entertainment, for that reason. People don't stew over him, so much as laugh at him with incredulity. But for sure, no one knows or cares if he's had a bad day, bad year, or bad life).
I have a thousand parents. Sadly they
Dissolve in their own virtues and recede.

hyzenthlay

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 8751
Re: Thoughts on thoughts
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2011, 02:01:51 PM »
Yes, but not to call them 'rude' or really to tell the OP that they are wrong for having them.

Well I don't think I've ever used rude, because I agree that if they are not public they are not being rude to anyone.

But I think they can still be wrong.

Two Ravens

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2317
  • One for sorrow, Two for mirth...
Re: Thoughts on thoughts
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2011, 02:02:54 PM »
I don't think we, as a society, owe it to each other to 'think the best' (something I have seen opined here, a lot).

It's not directly a matter of etiquette, but neither is much of what is discussed on the site.

We've seen people on the board (and many a story in the classic section) where the poster is ready to flay someone over a perceived violation. When really, no violation occurred. Now they may never have let that slip to the outside world other then on e-hell, but if they post the story looking for vindication I think it's allowable to enlighten them about what others think of their reaction.

I do agree that we are not required to 'think the best' but I also think it's good practice not to 'think the worst.'

I still think that people are entitled to their thoughts. Not talking about this particular thread any more, but one thing I have seen a lot of on here is people making long and very complicated excuses for people who an OP has seen as rude. 'Maybe they are having a bad day/have an undiagnosed illness/have something in their past to make them oversensitive' And so on it goes. I sometimes find ironic that the same people who are making all these excuses for the other people, seem to then hold the OP to a very high standard.

Well, I have to agree with you there. It makes me a little nuts at the hoops some people will jump through to come up with reasons to excuse rudeness. Because, if there's a good enough reason, then it's not really rude? I disgree with that. While a reason my explain the rudeness, it doesn't make it not rude, IMO.

Well, I understand you feeling that way, but it may come down to a different way of looking at things.  In general, I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.  So it does kind of bother me when a poster tells us about an open ended situation incolcing someone they don't know (well or at all), and everyone jumps in says, "CRUD MONKEYS! what a horrible person to do this to you" and "How rude!"  Sometime I think it could benefit other people to consider that maybe someone didn't purposly set out to ruin their lunch/day/whatever. Sometimes annoying things happen.

Personally, I think stewing about how rude people are to you isn't helpful, or healthy

It may not be healthy, for you. But for me, I feel it isn't healthy to dismiss all rudeness as 'maybe they were having a bad day'. I tend to get my 'revenge' on rude jerks by having a good laugh about them, at home. (There is one guy at my University who is the rudest person you will ever meet. But he is great entertainment, for that reason. People don't stew over him, so much as laugh at him with incredulity. But for sure, no one knows or cares if he's had a bad day, bad year, or bad life).

I wasn't talking about people who you know are generally rude people.  I am talking about fleeting encounters with random strangers that people then proceed to debate/carry on about it..  Why bother going on about it?  What good is it going to do?  

(And I wouldn't consider laughing about people as "stewing."   :)  But I do know people who are genuinely angry for days after petty slights. Like, "Oh I can never go to that diner again.  Last time I was there, the waitress implied I was fat by asking me if I wanted a diet soda. ARRGH, It made me so mad" )

Granny Takes a Trip

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1506
Re: Thoughts on thoughts
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2011, 02:05:55 PM »
I don't think we, as a society, owe it to each other to 'think the best' (something I have seen opined here, a lot).

It's not directly a matter of etiquette, but neither is much of what is discussed on the site.

We've seen people on the board (and many a story in the classic section) where the poster is ready to flay someone over a perceived violation. When really, no violation occurred. Now they may never have let that slip to the outside world other then on e-hell, but if they post the story looking for vindication I think it's allowable to enlighten them about what others think of their reaction.

I do agree that we are not required to 'think the best' but I also think it's good practice not to 'think the worst.'

I still think that people are entitled to their thoughts. Not talking about this particular thread any more, but one thing I have seen a lot of on here is people making long and very complicated excuses for people who an OP has seen as rude. 'Maybe they are having a bad day/have an undiagnosed illness/have something in their past to make them oversensitive' And so on it goes. I sometimes find ironic that the same people who are making all these excuses for the other people, seem to then hold the OP to a very high standard.

Well, I have to agree with you there. It makes me a little nuts at the hoops some people will jump through to come up with reasons to excuse rudeness. Because, if there's a good enough reason, then it's not really rude? I disgree with that. While a reason my explain the rudeness, it doesn't make it not rude, IMO.

Well, I understand you feeling that way, but it may come down to a different way of looking at things.  In general, I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.  So it does kind of bother me when a poster tells us about an open ended situation incolcing someone they don't know (well or at all), and everyone jumps in says, "CRUD MONKEYS! what a horrible person to do this to you" and "How rude!"  Sometime I think it could benefit other people to consider that maybe someone didn't purposly set out to ruin their lunch/day/whatever. Sometimes annoying things happen.

Personally, I think stewing about how rude people are to you isn't helpful, or healthy

It may not be healthy, for you. But for me, I feel it isn't healthy to dismiss all rudeness as 'maybe they were having a bad day'. I tend to get my 'revenge' on rude jerks by having a good laugh about them, at home. (There is one guy at my University who is the rudest person you will ever meet. But he is great entertainment, for that reason. People don't stew over him, so much as laugh at him with incredulity. But for sure, no one knows or cares if he's had a bad day, bad year, or bad life).

I wasn't talking about people who you know are generally rude people.  I am talking about fleeting encounters with random strangers that people then proceed to debate/carry on about it..  Why bother going on about it?  What good is it going to do?  

(And I wouldn't consider laughing about people as "stewing."   :)  But I do know people who are genuinely angry for days after petty slights. Like, "Oh I can never go to that diner again.  Last time I was there, the waitress implied I was fat by asking me if I wanted a diet soda. ARRGH, It made me so mad" )

I agree that that would be a pretty way out reaction, if that was all the waitress had said. However, I have stopped going to places where I have felt the service was rude (though I would not stew about it)
I have a thousand parents. Sadly they
Dissolve in their own virtues and recede.

DangerMouth

  • Work as if you were in the early days of a better nation.
  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 7482
  • Everybody Gets Ice Cream!
Re: Thoughts on thoughts
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2011, 02:19:36 PM »

Well, I have to agree with you there. It makes me a little nuts at the hoops some people will jump through to come up with reasons to excuse rudeness. Because, if there's a good enough reason, then it's not really rude? I disgree with that. While a reason my explain the rudeness, it doesn't make it not rude, IMO.

Well, I understand you feeling that way, but it may come down to a different way of looking at things.  In general, I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.  So it does kind of bother me when a poster tells us about an open ended situation incolcing someone they don't know (well or at all), and everyone jumps in says, "CRUD MONKEYS! what a horrible person to do this to you" and "How rude!"  Sometime I think it could benefit other people to consider that maybe someone didn't purposly set out to ruin their lunch/day/whatever. Sometimes annoying things happen.

Personally, I think stewing about how rude people are to you isn't helpful, or healthy

I may not have explained myself well. Just as (the other point of this thread) it's not rude to have mean thought toward someone, as long as treat them with courtesy, it's also not 'not rude' to treat someone with discourtesy, just because there may be 'good reason' for doing so.

One recent example off the SS thread- someone got cut off by an apparently able bodied person racing to get ahead of the HC person heading for the HC bathroom. Some posters posited IBS or other urgent medical reasons that the person cut in front of the person there ahead of them, and so she "may not have been rude".

I feel the action is what's rude, and in that example, the woman was rude, period. She might have had an accident if she didn't get to the bathroom in time? She had no way of knowing that the person she cut in front of wasn't in the exact-same predicament. And really, the least you can do if you know you are being rude is excuse yourself and beg forgiveness: "OMGI'msosorryIneedthebathroomnow!!!".

The only time I think rudeness can be excused is if the person isn't actually aware they they are being rude. If someone cuts me off on the highway, about 90% of the time, I figure they just didn't see me.

I agree that stewing about anything isn't generally healthy, particularly if it's about things you have no control over.

jimithing

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 19737
  • Life Is Too Short to Wear a Bad Outfit!
Re: Thoughts on thoughts
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2011, 02:23:57 PM »
I don't think we, as a society, owe it to each other to 'think the best' (something I have seen opined here, a lot).

It's not directly a matter of etiquette, but neither is much of what is discussed on the site.

We've seen people on the board (and many a story in the classic section) where the poster is ready to flay someone over a perceived violation. When really, no violation occurred. Now they may never have let that slip to the outside world other then on e-hell, but if they post the story looking for vindication I think it's allowable to enlighten them about what others think of their reaction.

I do agree that we are not required to 'think the best' but I also think it's good practice not to 'think the worst.'

I still think that people are entitled to their thoughts. Not talking about this particular thread any more, but one thing I have seen a lot of on here is people making long and very complicated excuses for people who an OP has seen as rude. 'Maybe they are having a bad day/have an undiagnosed illness/have something in their past to make them oversensitive' And so on it goes. I sometimes find ironic that the same people who are making all these excuses for the other people, seem to then hold the OP to a very high standard.

These types of threads drive me insane. There was a thread I was reading where this started happening, and I admit that I brought attention to this phenomenon that often happens on the board. After that, several people agreed with me that sometimes, people are just rude.

Ms_Shell

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3804
Re: Thoughts on thoughts
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2011, 03:23:00 PM »
I personally prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt and I will continue to try to think the best of others.  So I guess it's a case of agree to disagree.
"I've never been a millionaire, but I just know I'd be darling at it." - Dorothy Parker

ydpubs

  • Has a fine singing voice.
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3383
  • Reading the threads here makes me hungry.
Re: Thoughts on thoughts
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2011, 03:44:37 PM »
I agree that any discussion that goes off in to hyperbole, uber-specific medical peculiarities or such obscure situational excuses that are doing triple summersaults as to be ridiculous to excuse rude behavior is maddening.

And I certainly never called anyone rude for thinking their thoughts, but I have commented that the reaction (internal, but put out here for forum scrutiny) posted here as appearing to be OOT and I have never gone off on one of those far afield excuse-making journeys.


I personally prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt and I will continue to try to think the best of others.  So I guess it's a case of agree to disagree.


I still think that people are entitled to their thoughts.

And I think people on this board are entitled to talk about those thoughts. If you really don't want feedback, don't post.

And I agree with Ms. Shell and hyzenthaly.
No matter where you go, there you are...

Dindrane

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 15395
Re: Thoughts on thoughts
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2011, 04:50:46 PM »
I just want to say that, regardless of how the term has sometimes been used, giving the benefit of the doubt is not the same thing as thinking the best of a person/situation.

Giving the benefit of the doubt means that, if there is doubt, then one ought to hesitate to assume the worst.  Basically, if there are two equally plausible explanations for something, and one of them is a nicer spin on the situation than the other, it is giving the benefit of the doubt to go ahead and assume it's the nicer spin.

So in the burger situation: without a whole lot of background information, I think it is plausible that the person who touched the burger that wasn't hers did so with the full knowledge that it couldn't possibly be her order.  It is at least equally likely that she touched the burger because she thought it was hers, and only realized her mistake after the fact.

So in that situation, giving her the benefit of the doubt would mean assuming she didn't mean to touch a burger that wasn't hers, and dealing with the situation as though her actions were unintentional.  That type of judgment about the situation is far more likely to lead to ongoing polite behavior, and in general, is a much healthier way to live one's life.

That's not the same thing as the cutting in front for the bathroom incident in the special snowflake thread.  In that case, even giving the person who cut the benefit of the doubt (that they needed the bathroom urgently), their behavior was still rude.

And a third type of situation would be, for instance, someone glaring at you when you pass them on the street.  It is theoretically possible that there was some benign reason for their glare, but it's a whole lot more likely that they were just being rude.  In such a situation, there is no doubt to give the benefit of.

Giving someone the benefit of the doubt really shouldn't require any mental gymnastics at all.  It should be when you are confronted with a situation that has more than one plausible, readily apparent explanation.  Going around assuming the worst of those is really not polite at all, and can certainly lead to behavior that, while perhaps not rude, is more confrontational than necessary.

A lot of the utility and point of etiquette is to, in general, raise the level of interaction in society.  That's one reason why you do not respond to rudeness with more rudeness -- in so doing, you decrease the overall level of civility.  Part of the goal is to keep the level of civility as high as is possible, which is the biggest reason why it is good etiquette to give the benefit of the doubt whenever possible.


Ms_Shell

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3804
Re: Thoughts on thoughts
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2011, 10:15:57 PM »
I agree with Dindrane; or at least, I think it's beneficial to discuss both the rude and the not-so-rude possibilities. 
"I've never been a millionaire, but I just know I'd be darling at it." - Dorothy Parker