Author Topic: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?  (Read 8860 times)

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aventurine

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2011, 02:23:24 PM »
Okay, so debating is okay but making the same basic statement over and over without addressing questions/rebuttals is not?

IMO ;) yes, that would be it. Having a back-and-forth discussion, versus beating people over the head with your opinion and only yours.

I'd hate to think we couldn't debate, even though I've had to bite my tongue a few times myself to keep from getting too worked up. :-[

ITA.  Even though I rarely participate, I love to witness/read a good, thoughtful, reasoned debate, but the bolded (which is what I understood Shoo to be posting about in her OP) is tiresome and unproductive.  That's not a debate, that's beating a dead horse, which I don't think anyone would enjoy. 

It can be a fine line, and it's one of those "I know it when I see it" deals, for me, anyway.

Debate away, debators!  I've learned a lot from those!




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hobish

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2011, 02:30:24 PM »
I'm not sure about on this forum, but certainly on other forums, I've seen this manifest not so much out of a desire to have everyone agree with the poster, but rather that they don't think the others understand what they're saying.  If they got the angle, but disagreed, that's ok.  But its really frustrating when you can see that people just aren't getting what you're saying.

I think that happends frequently.

I also use the mental "ignore" button. It's even more handy than a real ignore button, sometimes.


It seems like most of these wouldn't be quite such an issue if people were more careful to say, IME, IMO, etc. It's the sweeping proculation that "My opinion is the correct one" that gets people's hackles up, IME :)

Well...if I'm saying something that's obviously a matter of opinion rather than fact, it's pretty clearly implied that what I'm saying is my opinion. If it weren't, I wouldn't be saying it. ;)

You would think so, wouldn't you? Try expressing your opinion by saying "Twilight is garbage," or "Sex and the City is stupid," or even "Onions are tasty," and see how that works out.  :P One of those in particular sparked a whole debate about exactly that; it got so out of hand it was locked. People couldn't accept that some statements are opinions no matter if you say, "I think..." or "IMO" or not.

...and then come back and beat it like a dead horse.


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PeasNCues

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2011, 02:31:32 PM »
Okay, so debating is okay but making the same basic statement over and over without addressing questions/rebuttals is not?

IMO ;) yes, that would be it. Having a back-and-forth discussion, versus beating people over the head with your opinion and only yours.

I'd hate to think we couldn't debate, even though I've had to bite my tongue a few times myself to keep from getting too worked up. :-[
Yeah usually when that happens I let people know I am going to bow out of the discussion so that we don't get "Well, we haven't heard from PNC in a while, so obviously we're right!"  ;) or "Oh no, I've mortally offended PNC and she's going to hate me forever and ever!"  :P
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Brentwood

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2011, 02:39:03 PM »


It seems like most of these wouldn't be quite such an issue if people were more careful to say, IME, IMO, etc. It's the sweeping proculation that "My opinion is the correct one" that gets people's hackles up, IME :)

Well...if I'm saying something that's obviously a matter of opinion rather than fact, it's pretty clearly implied that what I'm saying is my opinion. If it weren't, I wouldn't be saying it. ;)

You would think so, wouldn't you? Try expressing your opinion by saying "Twilight is garbage," or "Sex and the City is stupid," or even "Onions are tasty," and see how that works out.  :P One of those in particular sparked a whole debate about exactly that; it got so out of hand it was locked. People couldn't accept that some statements are opinions no matter if you say, "I think..." or "IMO" or not.

...and then come back and beat it like a dead horse.


It's just that redundancy bugs me. I'm not going to say "Onions are tasty" and then qualify that by saying, "In my opinion." Obviously if I say, "Onions are tasty" I am expressing my opinion on onions. I generally trust the people I'm conversing with to understand the difference between an expression of opinion and an edict. If they don't, the conversation probably isn't going to be productive anyway.

If I have to add "in my opinion" to every little thing I say, I'm probably not going to bother saying anything.

PeasNCues

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2011, 02:41:09 PM »
I think it comes down to you shouldn't treat your opinion as if it is the only valid one.

So, state "Twilight is garbage" all you want (though those be fightin' words in these here parts ;)), but don't say, "Of course Twilight is garbage!  ::)"
'I shall sit here quietly by the fire for a bit, and perhaps go out later for a sniff of air.  Mind your Ps and Qs, and don't forget that you are supposed to be escaping in secret, and are still on the high-road and not very far from the Shire!' -FOTR

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Red1979

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2011, 02:43:43 PM »


It seems like most of these wouldn't be quite such an issue if people were more careful to say, IME, IMO, etc. It's the sweeping proculation that "My opinion is the correct one" that gets people's hackles up, IME :)

Well...if I'm saying something that's obviously a matter of opinion rather than fact, it's pretty clearly implied that what I'm saying is my opinion. If it weren't, I wouldn't be saying it. ;)

You would think so, wouldn't you? Try expressing your opinion by saying "Twilight is garbage," or "Sex and the City is stupid," or even "Onions are tasty," and see how that works out.  :P One of those in particular sparked a whole debate about exactly that; it got so out of hand it was locked. People couldn't accept that some statements are opinions no matter if you say, "I think..." or "IMO" or not.

...and then come back and beat it like a dead horse.


It's just that redundancy bugs me. I'm not going to say "Onions are tasty" and then qualify that by saying, "In my opinion." Obviously if I say, "Onions are tasty" I am expressing my opinion on onions. I generally trust the people I'm conversing with to understand the difference between an expression of opinion and an edict. If they don't, the conversation probably isn't going to be productive anyway.

If I have to add "in my opinion" to every little thing I say, I'm probably not going to bother saying anything.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to go back and actually state flat out that something that was obviously my opinion is my opinion.  It's infuriating.

There are some posters that think any firm or stong opinion = someone stating that unilaterally as fact for everyone else.  Sometimes even when you state "in my opinion" you still get people arguing with you that you made it somehow magically sound like you meant it for everyone else--even after you've gone ahead and written out "in my opinion".

It's maddening.  Really.  I assume everything someone posts is their opinion unless they're citing a source.  I wish that was more commonplace here.
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Brentwood

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2011, 02:44:10 PM »
I think it comes down to you shouldn't treat your opinion as if it is the only valid one.


I never do.

Brentwood

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2011, 02:46:08 PM »
 I assume everything someone posts is their opinion unless they're citing a source.  I wish that was more commonplace here.

Yes. I do too.

PeasNCues

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2011, 02:46:08 PM »
I think it comes down to you shouldn't treat your opinion as if it is the only valid one.

I never do.
Never said you did. My post was meant generally. :) Sorry if there was confusion.
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Red1979

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2011, 02:49:32 PM »
I think it comes down to you shouldn't treat your opinion as if it is the only valid one.

So, state "Twilight is garbage" all you want (though those be fightin' words in these here parts ;)), but don't say, "Of course Twilight is garbage!  ::)"

But your opinion is the only valid one for *you*.  You can be respectful to someone and fervently believe that Twilight is garbage and nothing anyone else posts or says will change that opinion.

For example:

Poster A:  I love Twilight, it's the best!
Poster B: Not for me, Twilight is garbage.
Poster A: Ah, well I love Twilight and nothing will change that.
Poster B: I think its' garbage and nothing will change that.

Each one's argument is entirely valid only for themselves and the other person's opinion really doesn't need to mean anything or factor in.  I've never ever understood why someone else's personal opinion of something matters at *all* in how you form your own.

I love plenty of things other people don't, but if they intensely hate something or think its fluff, I'm secure enough in my opinion that it doesn't matter to me at all.  Why on earth should the fact that Susie hates Twilight, have any bearing at all on my opinion of it?  It seems pretty self-centered to immediately think someone else's opinion of something was directly formed or has some direct link to your own.

Why can't people just like what they like and dislike what they dislike and leave it at that?
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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2011, 02:52:26 PM »
Red1979- isn't that exactly what I said in my post?  ???
'I shall sit here quietly by the fire for a bit, and perhaps go out later for a sniff of air.  Mind your Ps and Qs, and don't forget that you are supposed to be escaping in secret, and are still on the high-road and not very far from the Shire!' -FOTR

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Red1979

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2011, 02:55:32 PM »
Red1979- isn't that exactly what I said in my post?  ???

You said you shouldn't treat your opinion as the only valid one--I'm clarifying that you *can* treat it as the only valid one for *yourself*, just not for anyone else.

Basically that being respectful does not mean negating, changing or minimizing your opinion. 
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LibraryLady

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2011, 02:56:37 PM »
There have been several times that I have wanted to post " that horse is deceased, stop beating it", esp when the post have gone 10-14 pages.  And when the OP comes back and says what they are going to do, then it starts back up again   :(

That is when I just step away and read/comment in another thread

JMHO

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2011, 03:02:38 PM »
Red1979- isn't that exactly what I said in my post?  ???

You said you shouldn't treat your opinion as the only valid one--I'm clarifying that you *can* treat it as the only valid one for *yourself*, just not for anyone else.

Basically that being respectful does not mean negating, changing or minimizing your opinion. 
Oh absolutely. In my post, I meant that you shouldn't treat your opinion as the only valid one period.
'I shall sit here quietly by the fire for a bit, and perhaps go out later for a sniff of air.  Mind your Ps and Qs, and don't forget that you are supposed to be escaping in secret, and are still on the high-road and not very far from the Shire!' -FOTR

http://inanitiesofanidlemind.blogspot.com/

CakeBeret

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2011, 03:09:40 PM »
It really bothers me when posters keep restating their opinion, over and over, and refuse to actually discuss it.

Poster: I hate blue elephants.
Others: What do you have against blue elephants?
Poster: I just hate blue elephants.
Others: Do you dislike all elephants, or just blue ones?
Poster: I really hate blue elephants, okay?
Others: But what about pink elephants? Are they okay?
Poster: Blue elephants make me angry. I hate them.
Others: What is your opinion on elephants in general?
Poster: I hate the blue ones.
Others: Do you hate yellow elephants?
Poster: It just seems to me that blue elephants are awful, evil, and smelly.
Others: How would you feel about a blue elephant that was painted pink?
Poster: Blue elephants are evil. I hate them.

It's this kind of argument that I think Shoo is talking about. (I could be wrong, of course!) The poster refuses to budge from her blue-elephant-hating stance, refuses to answer other posters' questions, and is not contributing to the discussion at hand.
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