Author Topic: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?  (Read 8858 times)

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Hanna

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #75 on: January 18, 2011, 04:33:04 PM »
Friends, I am outta this thread.  Have fun!!!
Hope you win!
;)

Aww.  ??? And I thought I was just debating.  Maybe I was repeatedly posting every few posts to reassert my opinion  ;), trying to convince everyone else. Sigh.
Sorry!  I am still reading and didn't mean I was mad or anything.  It's not because of any one poster!  It's just a tedious discussion and I don't care about the outcome.  I guess that quote upthread about people that are already convinced they are right applies to me today.  :)

Brentwood

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #76 on: January 18, 2011, 04:34:09 PM »

... I've had a statements such as "They should have done X instead of Y" answered by "Well, that's your opinion."

Well, yes, it is, that's why I typed it out on my keyboard and posted it under my username.

Yes! Exactly!  ;D

Red1979

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #77 on: January 18, 2011, 04:34:24 PM »
The problem with the Twilight example is that there really often is an undertone of "...and if you like it, you're an idiot."  I see it much more in other places than I do here on ehell, and there are posters (Cathy, for example) who could say that they think Twilight sucks, and I wouldn't think anything of it.  But there really have been times, even here, where I've sensed that undertone of "Twilight fans are idiots with no taste."  It really is specific to Twilight (and I'm sure a few other books/movies/etc), if someone said to me "Stephen King is garbage," or "rock music is garbage," or "dogs suck," or "potatoes are disgusting," it wouldn't occur to me at all that I was being judged for liking rock music and dogs and potatoes and Stephen King.  It's different for Twilight, because frankly, I am often judged for liking it, and there is very much a "Twilight fan" stereotype that many of us don't appreciate being wedged into.  

Cathy does have a point about diplomacy when expressing distaste for something, though.  You don't necessarily need to say "In my opinion and only my opinion, and this is only how I feel, I think Twilight isn't the best book in the universe," but I think it's much better to say "I didn't like Twilight at all," or "I don't think Twilight is appropriate for kids under 18" or whatever, rather than just declaring it garbage.


So maybe knowing that *you* are sensitive to Twilight, you may want to read Twilight posts with that extra lens? Knowing that you might read into it a little more given your history and sensitivity than what's actually on the page?  

There are lots of things I'm sensitive to and I try to read the posts and make sure I'm reacting to what's there and not my own baggage, kwim?

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RainhaDoTexugo

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #78 on: January 18, 2011, 04:39:50 PM »
The problem with the Twilight example is that there really often is an undertone of "...and if you like it, you're an idiot."  I see it much more in other places than I do here on ehell, and there are posters (Cathy, for example) who could say that they think Twilight sucks, and I wouldn't think anything of it.  But there really have been times, even here, where I've sensed that undertone of "Twilight fans are idiots with no taste."  It really is specific to Twilight (and I'm sure a few other books/movies/etc), if someone said to me "Stephen King is garbage," or "rock music is garbage," or "dogs suck," or "potatoes are disgusting," it wouldn't occur to me at all that I was being judged for liking rock music and dogs and potatoes and Stephen King.  It's different for Twilight, because frankly, I am often judged for liking it, and there is very much a "Twilight fan" stereotype that many of us don't appreciate being wedged into. 

Cathy does have a point about diplomacy when expressing distaste for something, though.  You don't necessarily need to say "In my opinion and only my opinion, and this is only how I feel, I think Twilight isn't the best book in the universe," but I think it's much better to say "I didn't like Twilight at all," or "I don't think Twilight is appropriate for kids under 18" or whatever, rather than just declaring it garbage.


So maybe knowing that *you* are sensitive to Twilight, you may want to read Twilight posts with that extra lens? Knowing that you might read into it a little more given your history and sensitivity than what's actually on the page? 

There are lots of things I'm sensitive to and I try to read the posts and make sure I'm reacting to what's there and not my own baggage, kwim?



Trust me, I do read the Twilight comments through that lens.  I'm also totally fine with good-natured Twilight bashing, and have had plenty of totally fine conversations about Twilight without feeling judged.  I'd say 95% of Twilight posts here don't even register to me, but there are a few notable occasions where posters have been almost vigilant about expressing their dislike of it.  Honestly, with those few posts, adding "in my opinion" probably wouldn't make a difference.  I think that Twilight fans should use common sense and try not to read into things, but I also think that, if you're going to criticize something that's quite often tied into a criticism of people who like that thing, you should watch your step, so to speak, and make sure you're not giving the wrong impression.  It's really not the same as not liking octopus, is all I'm saying.

Red1979

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #79 on: January 18, 2011, 04:45:20 PM »
The problem with the Twilight example is that there really often is an undertone of "...and if you like it, you're an idiot."  I see it much more in other places than I do here on ehell, and there are posters (Cathy, for example) who could say that they think Twilight sucks, and I wouldn't think anything of it.  But there really have been times, even here, where I've sensed that undertone of "Twilight fans are idiots with no taste."  It really is specific to Twilight (and I'm sure a few other books/movies/etc), if someone said to me "Stephen King is garbage," or "rock music is garbage," or "dogs suck," or "potatoes are disgusting," it wouldn't occur to me at all that I was being judged for liking rock music and dogs and potatoes and Stephen King.  It's different for Twilight, because frankly, I am often judged for liking it, and there is very much a "Twilight fan" stereotype that many of us don't appreciate being wedged into. 

Cathy does have a point about diplomacy when expressing distaste for something, though.  You don't necessarily need to say "In my opinion and only my opinion, and this is only how I feel, I think Twilight isn't the best book in the universe," but I think it's much better to say "I didn't like Twilight at all," or "I don't think Twilight is appropriate for kids under 18" or whatever, rather than just declaring it garbage.


So maybe knowing that *you* are sensitive to Twilight, you may want to read Twilight posts with that extra lens? Knowing that you might read into it a little more given your history and sensitivity than what's actually on the page? 

There are lots of things I'm sensitive to and I try to read the posts and make sure I'm reacting to what's there and not my own baggage, kwim?



Trust me, I do read the Twilight comments through that lens.  I'm also totally fine with good-natured Twilight bashing, and have had plenty of totally fine conversations about Twilight without feeling judged.  I'd say 95% of Twilight posts here don't even register to me, but there are a few notable occasions where posters have been almost vigilant about expressing their dislike of it.  Honestly, with those few posts, adding "in my opinion" probably wouldn't make a difference.  I think that Twilight fans should use common sense and try not to read into things, but I also think that, if you're going to criticize something that's quite often tied into a criticism of people who like that thing, you should watch your step, so to speak, and make sure you're not giving the wrong impression.  It's really not the same as not liking octopus, is all I'm saying.

But to a lot of people it is the same is my point--its just an opinion of something they dislike with no more bearing than that--be it twilight or octopus.

For me, I know I could easily misinterpret some things in relationship type threads due to my own experiences.  I am uber careful on those threads and try not to be offended or see things that aren't there.

Every poster needs to keep track of their "hot button" uber sensitive topics and take the time to read what's there and not blow it out of proportion or ascribe these terrible things that no one has ever said or even implied.

--Red
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PeasNCues

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #80 on: January 18, 2011, 04:47:01 PM »
RainhaDoTexugo is refering to quotes such as "Twilight is for babies!" and "I can't believe anyone would read that crap!" - which is covered under the "don't insult people of the opposite opinion." But, for some reason this doesn't apply to Twilight threads, which is why they are closed as soon as they are opened.  ;D
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Red1979

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #81 on: January 18, 2011, 04:52:09 PM »
RainhaDoTexugo is refering to quotes such as "Twilight is for babies!" and "I can't believe anyone would read that crap!" - which is covered under the "don't insult people of the opposite opinion." But, for some reason this doesn't apply to Twilight threads, which is why they are closed as soon as they are opened.  ;D

But that isn't what is being discussed.  Those are opinions on *people* who like certain things.  Not one poster's opinion of a certain inanimate object or thing.  Someone's like or dislike of an entertainment item is not an adequate judgment of them as a human being.

Again, I think it comes down to people having specific hot-button issues that cloud their judgment and lead them to subscribe things that are not stated or even implied.  So when a poster says, "Twilight is terrible" they hear "People who read Twilight are terrible."  Those are not at all the same things and stopping that type of thinking would go a long way into eleviating a lot of the problems people have with circular disagreements in threads.

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PeasNCues

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #82 on: January 18, 2011, 04:55:04 PM »
RainhaDoTexugo is refering to quotes such as "Twilight is for babies!" and "I can't believe anyone would read that crap!" - which is covered under the "don't insult people of the opposite opinion." But, for some reason this doesn't apply to Twilight threads, which is why they are closed as soon as they are opened.  ;D

But that isn't what is being discussed.  Those are opinions on *people* who like certain things.  Not one poster's opinion of a certain inanimate object or thing.  Someone's like or dislike of an entertainment item is not an adequate judgment of them as a human being.
Exactly!

Sorry, I meant to clarify that that was the point of my post lol
'I shall sit here quietly by the fire for a bit, and perhaps go out later for a sniff of air.  Mind your Ps and Qs, and don't forget that you are supposed to be escaping in secret, and are still on the high-road and not very far from the Shire!' -FOTR

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RainhaDoTexugo

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #83 on: January 18, 2011, 04:56:12 PM »
RainhaDoTexugo is refering to quotes such as "Twilight is for babies!" and "I can't believe anyone would read that crap!" - which is covered under the "don't insult people of the opposite opinion." But, for some reason this doesn't apply to Twilight threads, which is why they are closed as soon as they are opened.  ;D

But that isn't what is being discussed.  Those are opinions on *people* who like certain things.  Not one poster's opinion of a certain inanimate object or thing.  Someone's like or dislike of an entertainment item is not an adequate judgment of them as a human being.

Again, I think it comes down to people having specific hot-button issues that cloud their judgment and lead them to subscribe things that are not stated or even implied.  So when a poster says, "Twilight is terrible" they hear "People who read Twilight are terrible."  Those are not at all the same things and stopping that type of thinking would go a long way into eleviating a lot of the problems people have with circular disagreements in threads.



Well, as I said, most Twilight comments I see here don't trigger anything, there are just a select few.  Part of it is what Peas mentioned, and part of it is context.  Popping up with "Twilight is garbage" in a thread about books in general is one thing, but popping into, say, a thread that's full of Twilight fans having a fun time discussing their favorite Twilight scenes to say "Twilight is garbage" is another.  

But I'm really not trying to turn this into a Twilight debate, I was just trying to point out that Twilight might not be the best example to use in this case, because there are so many weird undertones and assumptions on both sides.  I figured it would make for a clearer discussion if we used something like octopus, where there aren't all those undertones and assumptions.  That way, it wouldn't get sidetracked into a discussion about Twilight or something :)

TurtleDove

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #84 on: January 18, 2011, 05:04:55 PM »
because there are so many weird undertones and assumptions on both sides

Here is the point some of us are making -- the undertones and assumptions are something you (general, but also specifically) are reading into the posts.  The poster may or may not intend for you to read the undertone or make the assumption.  I know that I have read Twilight and thought it was crap, but I still read it all.  There is no undertone or assumption in my statement.  I have no opinion on people who think Twilight is the best thing ever.  I suspect that every poster on this board believes that "their" hot-button issue has so many weird undertones and assumptions.  I think it makes sense for all of us to take what posters say at face value because we are never going to all agree on what the undertones or assumptions are, or whether they exist at all.

RainhaDoTexugo

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #85 on: January 18, 2011, 05:21:33 PM »
because there are so many weird undertones and assumptions on both sides

Here is the point some of us are making -- the undertones and assumptions are something you (general, but also specifically) are reading into the posts.  The poster may or may not intend for you to read the undertone or make the assumption.  I know that I have read Twilight and thought it was crap, but I still read it all.  There is no undertone or assumption in my statement.  I have no opinion on people who think Twilight is the best thing ever.  I suspect that every poster on this board believes that "their" hot-button issue has so many weird undertones and assumptions.  I think it makes sense for all of us to take what posters say at face value because we are never going to all agree on what the undertones or assumptions are, or whether they exist at all.

I really don't want to dig up ancient posts and derail the thread even further, so you'll have to just trust me that there have been a few cases here of people who have meant more than they said with regards to Twilight.  As I've also said repeatedly, it's more common off of ehell, and most ehell posts that mention Twilight haven't made me so much as blink an eye.  I just wanted to point out that, in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't the best example to use for people stating fact vs opinion, because it tends to get out of hand.

I'm going to bow out of this unless I get asked a direct question that I can answer or need to clarify something, because I don't want to turn into the poster that the OP was complaining about in the first place ;D

hobish

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #86 on: January 18, 2011, 05:26:12 PM »

LOL, that was actually exactly why i chose 2/3 of those examples -- they specifically are ones that have been closed for the reasons mentioned above.

...and now i feel like "that poster" too.  :P

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Queen of Clubs

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #87 on: January 18, 2011, 06:42:46 PM »
Sometimes it seems the "problem" is that certain posters are "called out" and therefore feel they need to respond to the posts that specifically are specifically geared to the poster rather than the concept.

I think that this does happen sometimes, but that still doesn't change the fact that there comes a time that they should just let it go. Continuing to respond generally leads the thread off track anyway and I think that can be really rude, particularly to the OP, who's situation is then not being addressed. That doesn't mean that the other posters who continue to nit pick aren't being rude as well, but it also doesn't excuse the over zealous poster's behavior.

There are two threads in particular that I'm reminded of because of this topic. One of them I actually went back and checked. The guilty poster (who was not the OP) posted 35 times. The entire thread was 143 posts long. The posts did not answer the OP's question, but instead, focused on how other posters should feel about the situation.

The second thread that comes to mind is one in which a certain popular media was being discussed. One poster could not walk away without trying to convince everyone how horrified we should be at the creator of this media. This thread was several years ago, and yet, everytime I see that member's posts, I can't help but roll my eyes.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think it's rude to derail the thread, particularly if it's over some minor detail. But even if the over zealous posting doesn't derail the thread, it may cause other members to lose respect for you.

I did that!  I was reading a thread, and it seemed like one poster was constantly, constantly posting.  When I checked, in the thread that had less than 190 replies, that poster had made 45 of them.  I ended up skipping his/her posts and reading the ones in between.

As for when a poster should stop trying to convince everyone else?  I think it's when the page starts looking like:

Alice: I love Wonderland!
Mad Hatter: Me too, it's great!
Queen of Hearts: It's bad and this is why.
Rabbit: No, I think that's a great reason to love it!
Queen of Hearts: It's bad and this is why.
Alice: But don't you think the roses are pretty?
Queen of Hearts: It's bad and this is why.
Tweedledee: I still like it.
Queen of Hearts: It's bad and this is why.
Tweedledum: I like it too.
Queen of Hearts: It's bad and this is why.
Rabbit: I love my home.
Alice: I love your home too.
Queen of Hearts: It's bad and this is why.

Then the Queen of Hearts could do with backing off a little.  She may be saying different things, but her point is always the same and, at that stage, I think everyone's got it.

Dindrane

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #88 on: January 18, 2011, 07:07:09 PM »
As far as I can tell, nearly everyone who posts regularly on this board is probably guilty of having done this at least once.  Whether it's because it's a topic they feel strongly about, or it's because the people who don't agree with them are doing it as well, or because they interpret other posters as lacking understanding rather than agreement -- it doesn't really matter.  Everybody does this.  It takes an extremely huge level of self-awareness to avoid it all the time, or even most of the time, and I don't honestly think anyone has that 100% of the time.

In addition to that, as I think this very thread demonstrates, one person's clarifying statement is another person's "you made your point now stop repeating it."

What that amounts to is that, when you notice this behavior in yourself, you should absolutely try to stop it, if only because you save a lot of energy by not continuing to argue something that will never be truly resolved.  When you notice the behavior in someone else, all you can do is ignore it.  Should someone else choose to argue repetitively with you, all you can do is refuse to engage.

This particular issue, like many other issues with posting style that have been brought up, is a lesson in learning to ignore behavior you don't like and can't change.


jimithing

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Re: When should a poster STOP trying to convince everyone else?
« Reply #89 on: January 18, 2011, 09:17:12 PM »
because there are so many weird undertones and assumptions on both sides

Here is the point some of us are making -- the undertones and assumptions are something you (general, but also specifically) are reading into the posts.  The poster may or may not intend for you to read the undertone or make the assumption.  I know that I have read Twilight and thought it was crap, but I still read it all.  There is no undertone or assumption in my statement.  I have no opinion on people who think Twilight is the best thing ever.  I suspect that every poster on this board believes that "their" hot-button issue has so many weird undertones and assumptions.  I think it makes sense for all of us to take what posters say at face value because we are never going to all agree on what the undertones or assumptions are, or whether they exist at all.

I really don't want to dig up ancient posts and derail the thread even further, so you'll have to just trust me that there have been a few cases here of people who have meant more than they said with regards to Twilight.  As I've also said repeatedly, it's more common off of ehell, and most ehell posts that mention Twilight haven't made me so much as blink an eye.  I just wanted to point out that, in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't the best example to use for people stating fact vs opinion, because it tends to get out of hand.

I'm going to bow out of this unless I get asked a direct question that I can answer or need to clarify something, because I don't want to turn into the poster that the OP was complaining about in the first place ;D

Raihna, I agree with you. :)

I know what you are talking about. And FWIW, I really, really dislike Twilight. But I can think of a couple of posters who every time there was a Twilight discussion, immediately jumped in with very condescending and distasteful undertones.

There are definitely times when our experiences and assumptions color our response and how we are reading things. And I've seen many times where only one poster is reading a post a certain way, and basically 99% of posters will let them know that's not what was meant. In those cases, I definitely agree it's a personal thing with that poster.

But you can't discount times when people *are* actually being snarky and intentionally condescending. And honestly, in those threads, I generally report it. I figure if a mod steps in, then it was the poster in question. If a mod does nothing, I figure it's me, and I was being especially sensitive.