News: IT'S THE 2ND ANNUAL GUATEMALA LIBRARY PROJECT BOOK DRIVE!    LOOKING FOR DONATIONS OF SCIENCE BOOKS THIS YEAR.    Check it out in the "Extending the Hand of Kindness" folder or here: http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=139832.msg3372084#msg3372084   

  • December 18, 2017, 01:15:14 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: My mare was ridden without my permission. How to handle? update page 30  (Read 119137 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

FauxFoodist

  • Member
  • Posts: 4990
Re: My mare was ridden without my permission. How to handle?
« Reply #75 on: January 22, 2011, 05:43:25 PM »
I think most pre-teens do not have the ability to do a full-on research paper. However, it would be instructive for her to read about it and give an oral report, perhaps.

I think a preteen would be able to do a research paper -- maybe not with MLA or Chicago-style documentation but definitely with a bibliography.  I'm really expecting one on the level with the child's grade level.  Again, I started doing them at age nine, but I know they were pretty schlocky then.  They were better when I was in sixth grade but still not as good as when I was older.  The point is for her to do the research and learn about what could've happened.  Not permitting her to ride and having her pick up after the horses might only teach her just not to get caught again, not necessarily teach her to not do it again.

And, yes, an oral report could be good, too, to all adults involved.

Calypso

  • Member
  • Posts: 2967
Re: My mare was ridden without my permission. How to handle?
« Reply #76 on: January 22, 2011, 05:43:56 PM »
I absolutely feel no anger or vitriol toward this child at all----she's a kid, I don't know her, and I don't assume any malice on her part. I assume (and I think rightly) that she has a hard time controlling her impulses and considering the consequences of her actions. I did use the term "punishment" but what I'm really after here is to get her to think. Writing is a great way to accomplish that and I don't understand, Shoo, why you'd consider a non-parent out of line to ask that of your child if your child committed a severely wrong act against another person. To write an essay and prove that you (the child) understand that you did something wrong---why is that so outrageous?

Of course, a non-parent can't require your child to do anything. That's not even an issue. There can be consequences if they don't do it (not riding at that stable any more) and, as you said, you can impose consequences if you think the essay is out of line--the stable doesn't see your business any more.

So, power issue aside, what's wrong with the actual idea of having the child write the essay?

crella

  • Member
  • Posts: 1274
Re: My mare was ridden without my permission. How to handle?
« Reply #77 on: January 22, 2011, 05:46:33 PM »
Quote
Caly has been begging me to let her ride my mare, and itís been an extremely firm no. Sheís gotten really persistent with her request and Iíve been bean dipping the firm no. And Iíve also told the barn manager Diane and she told the other instructors/groom that works at the barn that Caly is not allowed to ride my mare.

This gave me the willies...after being told this many times 'No', the sneakiness of taking the horse out knowing full well she was not supposed to. If she's this sneaky she is able to understand the consequences what she's done. What I've wondered while reading this thread is , have they (mother and child) actually come in person to apologize?  Is she being punished by her parents as well? They call 7 the 'age of reason' as children begin to understand right and wrong, even if it's at a basic level. The fact that she waited until all the people who knew she shouldn't ride the mare were away to pull this shows she knows it's wrong. And she did it anyway!

If it were my animal I'd be very upset. Is your mare okay, Artisticgal??

(edited because I neglected to direct my question to Artisticgal to her directly)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 05:52:17 PM by crella »

LadyClaire

  • Member
  • Posts: 8717
Re: My mare was ridden without my permission. How to handle?
« Reply #78 on: January 22, 2011, 05:48:37 PM »
What the girl did is incredibly stupid and she's very, very lucky that she didn't get hurt or get the horse injured or killed.

There was an incident at a stable where a former co-worker of mine had half of her hand bitten off by a freaked out, upset horse (it bit off her thumb, forefinger, and middle finger. she was left with nothing but her ring finger and pinky and a small portion of her palm). Horses are not animals to be trifled with. What if the horse had freaked out and thrown or kicked the girl? Or if the horse had gotten injured? Or been recovering from an existing injury? I remember one of my FIL's horses somehow got a hurt leg. You couldn't really tell from looking at it, unless you knew what you were looking for..the horse's leg was a little swollen and very hot to the touch. The vet warned FIL that the horse could not be ridden at all until it recovered fully at risk of permanently injuring the leg. If someone had taken that horse out riding and tried to make it jump, it would not have ended well for the horse.

Shannon

  • Member
  • Posts: 400
Re: My mare was ridden without my permission. How to handle?
« Reply #79 on: January 22, 2011, 06:00:08 PM »
I agree with Shoo. A lot of people are throwing around the word "theft," which has a very specific legal meaning. What this girl did may or may not have been theft in the the OP's jurisdiction, but I don't think anyone here ought to be trying to make that determination.

She took something that doesn't belong to her.  What else is it?  I would be shocked if it didn't meet the legal def, but that's beyond this forum.  It wasn't hers, she knew she didn't have permission to take it and she did it anyway. 

She didn't intend to deprive the owner of the property. That's generally one of the elements of the crime.

Just a quick word of caution - if we start heading into legal territory, the thread is going to get locked.  For the sake of discussion, can you agree to the use of the word theft, knowing that we aren't discussing the legal definition?  

I can do that.  :)

Maujer

  • Member
  • Posts: 1047
Re: My mare was ridden without my permission. How to handle?
« Reply #80 on: January 22, 2011, 06:17:58 PM »
I have to say as someone who actively rode as a preteen, the posters calling for the OP to call the police are really not overreacting. One of the first things riders are taught are how fragile horse can be and how to properly care for them. It's appalling to me she took your mare out despite being repeatedly told no. I would absolutely demand she was kicked out of the barn. Further action is up to the OP, but I wouldn't want this girl within 10 feet of my horse. I was consistently left alone around horses from the age of 11 on and I would never ever ever even considered doing this.

And if she really loves horses, mucking stalls won't deter her. Horse people usually sort of like the smell of manure. I mucked A LOT stalls to support my pony-loving habit as a teen.

Shoo

  • Member
  • Posts: 15855
Re: My mare was ridden without my permission. How to handle?
« Reply #81 on: January 22, 2011, 06:29:35 PM »
I think it's best if I just don't post in this thread anymore.  There's no way I can adequately explain why I think most of these responses are out of line, but I just do.  Maybe it's because I have a pre-teen daughter and the outright toxicity I'm sensing from some posters is really upsetting me.  So I'll just leave you to it.

DangerMouth

  • Work as if you were in the early days of a better nation.
  • Member
  • Posts: 6602
  • Everybody Gets Ice Cream!
Re: My mare was ridden without my permission. How to handle?
« Reply #82 on: January 22, 2011, 06:34:21 PM »
I think that's wise, if calling a natural response to an OTT disregard for a person's animal is now "toxic" ???

kherbert05

  • Member
  • Posts: 7946
    • Trees downed in my yard by Ike and the clean up
Re: My mare was ridden without my permission. How to handle?
« Reply #83 on: January 22, 2011, 06:35:17 PM »
Criminal charges against a pre-teen?

Who stole something?  Absolutely.  She took the OP's property not only without permission, but after being explicitly being told not to on more than one occasion.  Thankfully she was able to return her, unharmed but that wouldn't work as a defense for other items and it shouldn't here either. 

POD - To me the fact she had to be told repeatedly NO and still did it is a huge factor. This age she should know and comprehend what she did was theft. She doesn't get someones stuff because she wants it and stamped her foot.

I will be honest I'm big on letting kids 10 and up get full brunt of the legal consequences for acts that could harm others. This horse could have been hurt by an inferior rider, the instructor could have lost his job for not realizing this wasn't her horse. She needs some serious my life can be ruined if I keep acting this way consequences.

I went to school with a bunch of SS and some sociopaths. Their parents bought their way out of every scrape. People were shocked when my parents refused to be bullied or bought. When the bully's parents realized my parents had more power than the bully parents realized and were not going to back down - the harassment stopped on a dime, at least as far as I was concerned. My parents were told how horrible they were to threaten the bully's future like that - after all boys will be boys. (If beating classmates black and blue and threatening to rape them is typical elementary boy behavior we have a serious problem)

These same people were shocked and outraged when 2 boys blew up a math room with a bomb. Were they upset because the boys could have hurt or killed their children? No Were they upset that kids in the "best school district in the area" didn't know that 1 O'clock comes 2 times a day? No (Thank goodness they were that stupid) They were upset the district would ruin the boys' lives by pressing charges - they would lose their scholarships. (I swear making pipe bombs was considered "normal" by these people it came between learning to ride your bike around town on your own and hosting your first kegger in JH)
Don't Teach Them For Your Past. Teach Them For Their Future

Alida

  • Member
  • Posts: 8220
  • Lady Jedi
    • Alida's Journal
Re: My mare was ridden without my permission. How to handle? minor update.
« Reply #84 on: January 22, 2011, 06:43:11 PM »
POD!!! That's what happened to my friend Dawn's mare, she landed a jump wrong and broke a front leg and have to be put down.

Diane just called me, she's banning Caly from riding at the barn for 90 days, Lisa's been informed and is onboard with this. Lisa's also making Caly work around the barn mucking stalls and doing other chores.

You know, it's really nice to see the parent making the child "pay" for what she did that was wrong. Too often, the parent argues for their misbehaving offspring.

Good for you for following through and good for Diane and Lisa for ensuring that Caly knows that there are consequences!

Akarui Kibuno

  • Member
  • Posts: 2581
Re: My mare was ridden without my permission. How to handle?
« Reply #85 on: January 22, 2011, 06:45:00 PM »
Wow! I have a twelve years old sister who is taking riding lessons at a barn. She has sometimes asked to ride different horses because she seems to love all the ones at the barn, but if she took one she wasn't supposed to you can bet my Mom would be the first to punish her severely for her actions o_o .
My FB rants blog (English) - My personal site (French)
A click on one of the ads every so often would help a lot if possible. Thank you <3 .

Lady Godiva

  • Member
  • Posts: 121
Re: My mare was ridden without my permission. How to handle?
« Reply #86 on: January 22, 2011, 06:45:55 PM »
As a professional horse trainer, instructor and barn manager, I've encountered similar situations before. My suggestion is to hold the adults and professionals to their responsibility to protect your horse's security and your peace of mind. I would certainly inform the girl's parents (and I would certainly have something to say to her in person!), but I would not rely on her future behavior or judgment, even if she admitted what she had done and apologized. (Which it does not appear that she has done.)

--As a boarder, I'd notify the management that I do not feel that my horse is safe while this girl is allowed to be at the stable in any capacity, whether as a barn helper, a lesson rider or a boarder. Accordingly, if she is allowed to remain at the barn in any capacity, I will be removing my horse(s) immediately.
    [I realize that this is a huge inconvenience, especially if you're otherwise satisfied with the facilities and care. But as a horse owner, management's failure to expel a client who pulled such a sneaky, dangerous and irresponsible stunt would be a deal-breaker for me. At the very least, they need to take this as seriously as you do and not make excuses for the girl or allow her further opportunities to touch your horse. And unfortunately, it is not unheard-of for people who feel they've been thwarted to take revenge on the horse owner by damaging their tack or possessions or even mistreating the animal.]

--I'd also inform the instructors at the barn and especially "Jack" (the girl's outside instructor) that this girl did not have your permission to ride your horse and had been explicitly denied such permission. As a professional instructor, Jack has a responsibility to make sure that in any lesson he teaches, his student has permission to ride any horse that is not her own. [He's opening himself up to all kinds of trouble if he doesn't do this!] And the barn owner/management should hold him to a professional standard of responsibility if they permit him to teach lessons on their premises. I'd put this in writing and make sure all the instructors receive it.

--I would send a letter (registered mail) to the parents of the girl, informing them of what she did, that you had explicitly forbidden her to ride your horse, that she put your mare at risk by riding and jumping her inappropriately, and that you are reiterating that she may not ride, handle or have anything to do with your horse. Also, include the vet bill for the exam and any subsequent treatment. [Get this on record!]

Personally, I think filing a police report over this kind of incident is overkill. But getting kicked out of that stable (including the lesson program) is an appropriate consequence, and that's exactly what I would expect should happen to any rider, adult or child, who pulled a similar stunt. I have (rarely) had to terminate a client for the good of the program and other clients, and while it is never pleasant, it is sometimes necessary.

To those who are saying this girl is just a child and not responsible:  No, she's not an adult, which is why her parents should be informed. But a girl (even a pre-teen) who owns her own horse, takes lessons from her own "outside" instructor without supervision of the barn staff and competes at intermediate level, has been around horses and horse people long enough to know exactly how bad and irresponsible this kind of behavior is. And she did it in a premeditated, dishonest and sneaky way, hoping she wouldn't get caught.  

If I were this child's parent or her instructor, I'd be having a serious talk with her about trust, responsibility and boundaries. She sounds as if she is not mature enough to be dropped off at the barn and allowed to be there without parental supervision. And if anyone should suffer the consequences of having to find a different boarding barn, it should be this girl, not the OP. Her selfishness and irresponsibility make her a danger and a liability at that barn.

Let's hope this turns out to be a learning experience for the girl.  And most of all, that it results in you being able to feel confident about the security of your horse when you're not there.

(Edited to add:
I don't believe that cleaning stalls is an appropriate consequence. This is more likely to make the girl see herself as "barn staff" and it may put her in contact with the OP's horse when the OP is not present. I would want her completely out of the barn, not working in the barn.
While it might be educational to have her write an essay, I don't think the OP is in a position to require that. But most young riders really care about their instructors' opinion, and if "Jack" comes down on her hard for pulling such a stunt in his lesson (and putting him in a very bad position by doing so), that may really matter to her. It's an opportunity for her instructor to exercise some leadership and teach her about horsemanship and responsibility.)



  
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 08:43:20 PM by Lady Godiva »

HorseFreak

  • Member
  • Posts: 2619
Re: My mare was ridden without my permission. How to handle?
« Reply #87 on: January 22, 2011, 06:46:20 PM »
Equine vet here... For non-horse people, riding an unconditioned horse for an hour over fences at a fast pace (canter is sort of like a slow gallop, just with three beats instead of four) is like being a couch potato all winter and trying to run 5 miles with hurdles the first time out. You're going to end up sore and possibly injured. Beyond freak accidents/death, unconditioned horses who are pushed too far too quickly are at risk of straining/tearing ligaments which is a much more severe problem in horses potentially requiring expensive treatment and can be career limiting or ending depending on the discipline. In addition, failing to properly cool down horses can result in soreness and poor attitude. Horses are also always looking for a reason to colic (general term for an upset stomach in a horse that can range from mild impaction to deadly displacements and torsions of intestines)- throwing a hot, panting horse back in a stall without proper cool down is begging for trouble.

Shea

  • Member
  • Posts: 3341
Re: My mare was ridden without my permission. How to handle?
« Reply #88 on: January 22, 2011, 06:46:40 PM »
I'm absolutely shocked by Caly's behavior. I grew up with horses, and I cannot imagine riding another person's horse without permission, never mind riding another person's horse after the owner had expressly forbidden it. I did sometimes ride another person's horse, but only with permission. Sometimes it's fun to have a change of pace and get some practice on a new horse.

I think, if you can do it, making her write an essay or two would be an excellent way to impress upon her the seriousness of her actions. Not only will she be having to do research and write a paper when she's probably rather be doing something else, she'll hopefully learn something about the things that can happen to both the rider and the horse if the rider is careless. I'm glad her mother is on board with the punishment. Though I wouldn't let her around the barn at all for several weeks or months. When I was that age, I was so horse-crazy that even mucking out stalls was preferable to not being at the barn at all (who am I fooling...I'm still that horse-crazy, I just don't have the time or money to do the horse thing right now ;) ).


If a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, librarians are a global threat.

Ms_Shell

  • Member
  • Posts: 3789
Re: My mare was ridden without my permission. How to handle?
« Reply #89 on: January 22, 2011, 08:07:33 PM »
Equine vet here... For non-horse people, riding an unconditioned horse for an hour over fences at a fast pace (canter is sort of like a slow gallop, just with three beats instead of four) is like being a couch potato all winter and trying to run 5 miles with hurdles the first time out. You're going to end up sore and possibly injured. Beyond freak accidents/death, unconditioned horses who are pushed too far too quickly are at risk of straining/tearing ligaments which is a much more severe problem in horses potentially requiring expensive treatment and can be career limiting or ending depending on the discipline. In addition, failing to properly cool down horses can result in soreness and poor attitude. Horses are also always looking for a reason to colic (general term for an upset stomach in a horse that can range from mild impaction to deadly displacements and torsions of intestines)- throwing a hot, panting horse back in a stall without proper cool down is begging for trouble.

Thank you - I knew there was a reason why people in books are always rubbing the horses down before putting them back in the stalls.  I have less sympathy for the child now, and she needs to be taught the proper care of horses ASAP. 
"I've never been a millionaire, but I just know I'd be darling at it." - Dorothy Parker