Apologies ignored and friendship not what I thought?? Update #285

[gramma dishes]

I think P-p-p-penguin is right and the husband was there as a buffer so she wouldn't be forced into any uncomfortable conversations ....

Yes.  But there is one additional possibility.  It may be that her husband insisted upon accompanying her to be sure that his wife didn't say/reveal anything that he didn't want her to.

Probably not, but it IS possible. 

[sammycat]

I think she realises that she has been out of line but is not willing to admit it nor apologise for it and wanted to meet in the hope that she could just smooth over it without mention.  Obviously we know that isn't going to work.

I'm going through a similar situation myself (different circumstances) where a once close friendship has been reduced to basically an acquaintanceship, and it's only at that "high" a level because our children are best friends.

These situations hurt and are puzzling at first.  It's easy to wonder what did *I* do wrong?  But in these situations it's not you, it's them.  For whatever reason, consciously or subconsciously, they have decided to act this way.  I think on some level they realise they have done the wrong thing, but when it suits them to want things to be the same as they were before they try to act as though nothing has happened/is wrong.  But by then the damage is done and they can't have their cake and eat it too.

[LifeOnPluto]

Perhaps she took her husband with her because she was worried you might try and have it out with her?  I think she realises that she has been out of line but is not willing to admit it nor apologise for it and wanted to meet in the hope that she could just smooth over it without mention.  Obviously we know that isn't going to work.

This was my first thought. She deliberately brought her husband along, so that you'd be forced to keep the conversation light and general.

If you had raised the issue (eg, "Friend, I feel hurt at the way you've been treating me lately" etc) I'm willing to bet her husband would have very firmly shut you down. As you said, they were a "unit" and I think they would have vehemently united against you in stating that they had done nothing wrong, and the problem was entirely with YOU.

As PPs have said, there's probably nothing much you can really do now. Maybe you could send her one final email stating "Friend, I was hoping to have seen you alone yesterday at coffee. There's been something on my mind I wanted to talk to you about. I feel really hurt at the way you've been treating me lately..." etc. However, be prepared for the fact that she'll either ignore it, or shoot back an angry response...

[Samgirl2]

OP here.

Life on Pluto - I am thinking about doing what you say.  I am ok with the fact we are no longer friends, she has made it clear she is not the person I knew and there iis too much water under the bridge for me now.

However, because we didn't talk properly yesterday and the issue was not mentioned I am very tempted to send one last email/note, just to say:

- this is how I feel, I had hoped to discuss it yesterday but when you brought your husband there was not the opportunity.
 -It seems like you have moved on. I want you to know that I wish you well with the baby, that the baby was not the cause of all this, even though you seemed to think I was not happy for you etc, but I have found it very hard to understand why someone who i spoke to so often can suddenly go weeks with out speaking to me, accuse me of the things you did, ignore me in the street and then pretend like everything is fine.
- I have always valued your friendship, and I still value what we had, but I don't really know if I can go back to how things were before.  I don't think you have been treating me very much like a friend recently, and I am not sure how to trust you again.
 - If you ever want to talk about it you know where I am and I will listen. If you have moved on then there is no need to reply to this. Just know that I wish you the best.

I just really want her to know that it's not ok and give it an ending without this awkwardness or the chance of running into them again at church and wondering how to act. I feel like this would be closure for both of us maybe?

If not, then I won't do it.

[Samgirl2]

She is someone I care about but not someone I feel close to or feel an obligation towards anymore. If they continue to come to church after the baby is born then I will of course run into them so they are not out of my life, and I will say hello and tell them the baby is lovely, but until she changes her behaviour I really can't do more than that, as much as i may want to.

I'm surprised you still want to.  After everything that has happened, especially her indifference and lack of acknowledgment of her past behaviour, do you really think her behaviour will change in the future?  I am concerned, by what you wrote above, that if she came running up to you like old times, apologized and gave you a hug, you would step back into the friendship, which ultimately would be on her terms.  

This woman isn't your friend.  It is time to move on and remain a cool distance.  Say hello if you see her at church, but if she emails asking for other coffee dates, asks any favours et al, I would just ignore the messages.  

You don't owe her anything.  I really think you will feel much better if you let her and the friendship go.  It will actually be a gift to yourself.

edited to correct punctuation.

Thanks Sparksals

I guess I just find it hard not to give people a chance, but I would never just let them off and go back to the way things were. If she did come and apologised etc I would consider being more than nodding acquaintances and working on some sort of friendship but would I ever get close to considering her my best friend again? No way.

Also, she seems so set in her opinion that it's my fault somehow that it's hard not to want to make my position clear. I tried, when I replied to her accusatory email, but I think I was too nice and all she said was 'let's draw a line under it'.   I want her to know that her behaviour was unacceptable and that is why I will no longer reach out to her. She didn't give me a chance to bring it up yesterday, intentionally I suspect, I have been left hanging while she holds all the cards.

I know I should just forget about it but it's easier said than done

[LadyL]

I just really want her to know that it's not ok and give it an ending without this awkwardness or the chance of running into them again at church and wondering how to act. I feel like this would be closure for both of us maybe?

If not, then I won't do it.

I think it's fair to let them know where you stand. But I would keep it very short and simple, because you are not opening a discussion, you are stating your feelings. You don't owe her every detail of why you feel how you do - she's shown time and time again that she doesn't get it anyway. I would say something like:

"I was hoping that when we got coffee we could address your erratic and hurtful behavior towards me in the last few months. I felt by including your husband you shut down that discussion. I see that you do not feel the need to apologize for how you have acted towards me. Because of that I no longer wish to have a relationship beyond "casual acquaintance" with you. I hope we can treat each other civilly and politely, but I also need you to know that you've damaged our friendship beyond repair."

[Dindrane]

Honestly, at this point, I have a feeling that additional contact would not accomplish anything positive.  There are two things you could be hoping for with it: having her finally acknowledge what you've said all along, and granting yourself extra closure.

But really, the chances of either of those things happening because of an email where you lay it all out are pretty slim.  It probably isn't going to accomplish anything positive with her -- if she reacts at all, it will probably be with defensiveness.  It probably isn't going to make you feel better, either, since her reaction is most likely going to be ignoring it completely or more of what she's already said.

I think you would be better served just trying to let it go.  You've given her a lot of chances, and you've tried everything a reasonable person can do to preserve the friendship.  At some point, you have to accept that you can't change her behavior, and I think you'll be happier if you work on accepting that now.

[gramma dishes]

Honestly, at this point, I have a feeling that additional contact would not accomplish anything positive.  There are two things you could be hoping for with it: having her finally acknowledge what you've said all along, and granting yourself extra closure.

But really, the chances of either of those things happening because of an email where you lay it all out are pretty slim.  It probably isn't going to accomplish anything positive with her -- if she reacts at all, it will probably be with defensiveness.  It probably isn't going to make you feel better, either, since her reaction is most likely going to be ignoring it completely or more of what she's already said.

I think you would be better served just trying to let it go.  You've given her a lot of chances, and you've tried everything a reasonable person can do to preserve the friendship.  At some point, you have to accept that you can't change her behavior, and I think you'll be happier if you work on accepting that now.

I totally agree with Dindrane's entire post.  I would not make any attempt to continue additional contact with her.  Be "nice" (cooly polite), but not friendly if you see her again. 

[DangerMouth]

I just really want her to know that it's not ok and give it an ending without this awkwardness or the chance of running into them again at church and wondering how to act. I feel like this would be closure for both of us maybe?

If not, then I won't do it.

Well, you can't know if it would be closure for her (and from what it sounds like, she's already had her closure). And I'm not sure that putting your heart on your sleeve like that will make you feel any less awkward in the future, KWIM? Sometimes it's better to walk away with your dignity intact, even if you haven't had a chance to set the record straight.

But if you think this is something you need to do for yourself, then do it. Just be sure that you can live with getting no reaction at all, or a defensive reaction, or an angry one (any of these things seems possible).

[LadyL]

I just really want her to know that it's not ok and give it an ending without this awkwardness or the chance of running into them again at church and wondering how to act. I feel like this would be closure for both of us maybe?

If not, then I won't do it.

Well, you can't know if it would be closure for her (and from what it sounds like, she's already had her closure). And I'm not sure that putting your heart on your sleeve like that will make you feel any less awkward in the future, KWIM? Sometimes it's better to walk away with your dignity intact, even if you haven't had a chance to set the record straight.

But if you think this is something you need to do for yourself, then do it. Just be sure that you can live with getting no reaction at all, or a defensive reaction, or an angry one (any of these things seems possible).

POD.

[JoyinVirginia]

I just really want her to know that it's not ok and give it an ending... I feel like this would be closure for both of us

Well, you can't know if it would be closure for her (and from what it sounds like, she's already had her closure)...  putting your heart on your sleeve like that will NOT make you feel less awkward in the future..  Sometimes it's better to walk away with your dignity intact... But if you think this is something you need to do for yourself, then do it. Just be sure that you can live with getting no reaction at all, or a defensive reaction, or an angry one (any of these things seems possible).

POD DangerMouth with a little editing in the middle from me. If you feel like you need to express yourself one more time, then write out everything you want to say - and then tear it up. Don't send it. She has demonstrated she has moved on, and from what you have described so far, I do not think any reaction from her would be what you want.

[sparksals]

OP here.

Life on Pluto - I am thinking about doing what you say.  I am ok with the fact we are no longer friends, she has made it clear she is not the person I knew and there iis too much water under the bridge for me now.

However, because we didn't talk properly yesterday and the issue was not mentioned I am very tempted to send one last email/note, just to say:

- this is how I feel, I had hoped to discuss it yesterday but when you brought your husband there was not the opportunity.
 -It seems like you have moved on. I want you to know that I wish you well with the baby, that the baby was not the cause of all this, even though you seemed to think I was not happy for you etc, but I have found it very hard to understand why someone who i spoke to so often can suddenly go weeks with out speaking to me, accuse me of the things you did, ignore me in the street and then pretend like everything is fine.
- I have always valued your friendship, and I still value what we had, but I don't really know if I can go back to how things were before.  I don't think you have been treating me very much like a friend recently, and I am not sure how to trust you again.
 - If you ever want to talk about it you know where I am and I will listen. If you have moved on then there is no need to reply to this. Just know that I wish you the best.

I just really want her to know that it's not ok and give it an ending without this awkwardness or the chance of running into them again at church and wondering how to act. I feel like this would be closure for both of us maybe?

If not, then I won't do it.

I don't think you should send her anything.  She doesn't deserve the too kind words above.  What I do suggest you do is write a letter to her, get everything out you need to, but don't send it.   I don't see sending her an email will accomplish anything.  What if she sends a nasty response back?  What if she ignores it?  It will continue to bug you.  I don't think she deserves for you to give her closure.  You deserve closure for yourself. 

[sparksals]

She is someone I care about but not someone I feel close to or feel an obligation towards anymore. If they continue to come to church after the baby is born then I will of course run into them so they are not out of my life, and I will say hello and tell them the baby is lovely, but until she changes her behaviour I really can't do more than that, as much as i may want to.

I'm surprised you still want to.  After everything that has happened, especially her indifference and lack of acknowledgment of her past behaviour, do you really think her behaviour will change in the future?  I am concerned, by what you wrote above, that if she came running up to you like old times, apologized and gave you a hug, you would step back into the friendship, which ultimately would be on her terms.  

This woman isn't your friend.  It is time to move on and remain a cool distance.  Say hello if you see her at church, but if she emails asking for other coffee dates, asks any favours et al, I would just ignore the messages.  

You don't owe her anything.  I really think you will feel much better if you let her and the friendship go.  It will actually be a gift to yourself.

edited to correct punctuation.

Thanks Sparksals

I guess I just find it hard not to give people a chance, but I would never just let them off and go back to the way things were. If she did come and apologised etc I would consider being more than nodding acquaintances and working on some sort of friendship but would I ever get close to considering her my best friend again? No way.

Also, she seems so set in her opinion that it's my fault somehow that it's hard not to want to make my position clear. I tried, when I replied to her accusatory email, but I think I was too nice and all she said was 'let's draw a line under it'.   I want her to know that her behaviour was unacceptable and that is why I will no longer reach out to her. She didn't give me a chance to bring it up yesterday, intentionally I suspect, I have been left hanging while she holds all the cards.

I know I should just forget about it but it's easier said than done

You have given her countless chances and every.single.time she has stepped all over you and flicked you away like a pesky bug.  You are not a pesky bug, but she certainly has treated you as such.

I understand wanting to make your position clear.  The problem is, she will not hear it.  She will not listen.  She is so set in her ways, that whatever matters to you means absolutely nothing to her.    She does not deserve for you to reach out to her.  You were far too nice and while being nice and trying to give her chance after chance, YOU are the one getting hurt.  Do you think she is hurting like you are?  The fact she intentionally brought her husband along so it would not be discussed would have been the end of it for me.  

You are mourning the loss of this friendship.  Completely normal and understandable.  I think this last meeting can be a stepping stone for you to walk away and move on.  

My suggestion is to not initiate any contact and do not respond if she contacts you.  If you see her at church or elsewhere, a polite nod and go on your way.  No conversations.  

The more you let her come to you solely on her terms, the more you are going to go through everything in your head.  You can switch this around to be on YOUR terms.  If she knows you will always be there for her to come to, you are going to get more angry and confused.  Seize control of the situation for yourself so she can't do this to you anymore.  All her actions are extremely toxic and you don't need someone like this in your life.  She doesn't deserve your friendship.

[sparksals]

Honestly, at this point, I have a feeling that additional contact would not accomplish anything positive.  There are two things you could be hoping for with it: having her finally acknowledge what you've said all along, and granting yourself extra closure.

But really, the chances of either of those things happening because of an email where you lay it all out are pretty slim.  It probably isn't going to accomplish anything positive with her -- if she reacts at all, it will probably be with defensiveness.  It probably isn't going to make you feel better, either, since her reaction is most likely going to be ignoring it completely or more of what she's already said.

I think you would be better served just trying to let it go.  You've given her a lot of chances, and you've tried everything a reasonable person can do to preserve the friendship.  At some point, you have to accept that you can't change her behavior, and I think you'll be happier if you work on accepting that now.

THIS.

[Winterlight]

Also, she seems so set in her opinion that it's my fault somehow that it's hard not to want to make my position clear. I tried, when I replied to her accusatory email, but I think I was too nice and all she said was 'let's draw a line under it'.   I want her to know that her behaviour was unacceptable and that is why I will no longer reach out to her. She didn't give me a chance to bring it up yesterday, intentionally I suspect, I have been left hanging while she holds all the cards.

She doesn't care what your position is. I think trying to reiterate it would waste your time. JoyinVirginia's idea of a letter you shred might be useful for you to close things out, but contacting her again isn't really helpful for you.