Apologies ignored and friendship not what I thought?? Update #285

[Samgirl2]

Thanks everyone. I have been out of the house for a few hours and not seen the computer but had come to the same conclusion as you guys and reading your posts just now has just reinforced it.

I sat down and wrote a letter earlier today and then did indeed rip it up. It was cathartic for me to get all my thoughts out on paper and get things straight in my head that it really was not my fault. But you are right, I have tried to talk to her before and she didn't take it on board, she sure as hell won't now.

Seeking her understanding will do no good and i have tried to console and understand her. It was not reciprocated but I tried, and that's what matters.  Demanding she see my point of view will never accomplish anything because she has made it clear she can't/won't

Also, completely agree that the fact she brought her husband along meant she had no intention of talking things over with me.  I read a great quote recently that said that apologies, even if you were not totally sure who was wrong, meant that you put your friendship above your own ego. I think it's clear our friendship is waaaaayy below her ego right now.

I spoke to another friend from church this evening, M.  She knows what's been happening because i confided in her a few weeks ago. She asked if anything had changed so I told her all about yesterday's meetup.  She agrees that there is no more we can do. M and her husband have also tried to reach out to this couple and have got nowhere and also believe that all their reasons for not being around are simply excuses and a symptom of a bigger problem. We have all three tried to help them but if she was not even willing to talk to me one to one yesterday there is really nothing more we can do apart from pray for them and be civil if we see them.  Challenging them will just rile them and cause us more worry.  M's husband also added that he was completely puzzled as to why they would push everyone away so completely, even their best friends, at a time when most people want people around, and that the way they were behaving gave us no choice but to leave them to it but be open if they ever decided to return. He agreed that their accusation had no foundation either and couldn't believe they had the nerve to say that and then try to pretend like everything was fine.

So, I feel like I have closure now anyway, and i have back up from you guys and people who know this couple that I've done all I can do, they are treating me and others really badly and that it is time to walk away.

I will let you know if we ever find out what happened, but it may be sometime!!

[Pinky830]

Samgirl, (((hugs))). I am so grieved and frustrated on your behalf. I had someone I considered a very dear friend who, though nothing as dramatic as this happened, at some point decided I was just an acquaintance or former friend. Many, many tears were shed over it until I finally just had to move on. I'm so sorry this has happened to you.

[blarg314]

It sounds like you've got a good solution.

In general, I find the concept of closure is over-rated, at least when it is applied in the "I want answers" sense.  You can't force someone else to explain why they behaved the way they did, and you can't make them acknowledge that they behaved badly, or feel sorry, or apologize.

Sometimes you just have to accept that things have changed, you've done your best but it didn't work, and move on with things.

[kokopellimom]

I'm late to this thread, and I must admit that I skimmed it a bit. It's possible that someone may have already brought up this possibility. If so, sorry for skimming!

It sounds like this entire circle of friends is based in your church, correct? Could it be possible that your friend and her husband have had a change of heart in their religious beliefs? Could they be pulling away from your church as a whole? I ask because my mother's church recently changed ministers. The former minister was quite liberal, the new minister is very conservative, and there have been quite a few people who have either left the church or pulled WAY back on their participation, without broadcasting their reasons.

I realize this suggestion is probably a long shot. It just seems so weird for them both to suddenly withdraw so completely, and something like wanting to back away from the church might explain it.

I'm sorry, either way, that you lost a friend like that. It's every bit as painful as a breakup, and yet harder to acknowledge it as a loss somehow. ((SamGirl))

[Lynda_34]

I think you need to look at it like this - if you gave someone a small decoration that mentioned meditation, how would you like someone to approach telling you that it was offensive to them, because they believed it to be non-Christian? Figure that out, and use that approach.

Wrong thread?

ARGH! YES!

How does this happen? Am I just careless with back buttons or what?

Ok where is that thread? It sounds interesting. Oh look a bunny? ::)Wait that's a pagan symbol for the Easter  season. Letrs put Crazy Lynda back in the padded pet carrier.

[sparksals]

I think you need to look at it like this - if you gave someone a small decoration that mentioned meditation, how would you like someone to approach telling you that it was offensive to them, because they believed it to be non-Christian? Figure that out, and use that approach.

Wrong thread?

ARGH! YES!

How does this happen? Am I just careless with back buttons or what?

Ok where is that thread? It sounds interesting. Oh look a bunny? ::)Wait that's a pagan symbol for the Easter  season. Letrs put Crazy Lynda back in the padded pet carrier.

 

[JoyinVirginia]

OP, I am glad you have friend M and her DH to talk to about this. Sounds like you all have come to the same conclusion. maybe one day you will get some kind of further explanation, but probably not. You can rest assured you did all you could.

[Samgirl2]

Samgirl, (((hugs))). I am so grieved and frustrated on your behalf. I had someone I considered a very dear friend who, though nothing as dramatic as this happened, at some point decided I was just an acquaintance or former friend. Many, many tears were shed over it until I finally just had to move on. I'm so sorry this has happened to you.

Thanks so much. She was probably the person I trusted most outside of my family and who knew the most about me and at first, when she announced the pregnancy and I realised how long they'd kept it a secret and then she rejected my offers for help or to meet up, yes, I did shed many tears because it felt like everything I thought I could be sure of was shaken.

Then I thought I was selfish and maybe it was just taking time for them to adjust and they were busy and I let it go for a bit. But ignoring/blanking me and then the things she accused me of I took it really really personally and there were more tears. It's like a break-up or something!

Now of course I can see that it wasn't personal. I bore the brunt of it because we had the closest relationship, but they have not been to anything, nor responded with more than the bare minimum to anyone in our wide circle of friends.

[Samgirl2]

I'm late to this thread, and I must admit that I skimmed it a bit. It's possible that someone may have already brought up this possibility. If so, sorry for skimming!

It sounds like this entire circle of friends is based in your church, correct? Could it be possible that your friend and her husband have had a change of heart in their religious beliefs? Could they be pulling away from your church as a whole? I ask because my mother's church recently changed ministers. The former minister was quite liberal, the new minister is very conservative, and there have been quite a few people who have either left the church or pulled WAY back on their participation, without broadcasting their reasons.

I realize this suggestion is probably a long shot. It just seems so weird for them both to suddenly withdraw so completely, and something like wanting to back away from the church might explain it.

I'm sorry, either way, that you lost a friend like that. It's every bit as painful as a breakup, and yet harder to acknowledge it as a loss somehow. ((SamGirl)

It could be that.  In our group everyone's social life is pretty much based around friends from church. We go to the same early evening service on sundays and go to the pub for a quick drink afterwards. We are in small home groups together which meet once a week for chatting/discussing what's going on in our lives, bible study and prayer - we are split between 3 groups as there are so many of us, and so once a month we do a social activity with everyone.  Quite a few of us, including pregnant friend's husband, are in the worship bands so have practice sessions together sometimes. Within the circle their are different smaller groups of friends who meet up randomly for coffee/shopping/dinner/cinema etc.

People have other friends as well  but we've all moved to the area in the last 3-4 years and became close through church and mutual interests. This couple have freely admitted they don't have any friends outside of our cicle, aside from work colleagues but that is not the same.

This couple have always been heavily involved in the church and even set up and lead one of the home groups (which I am in) so it is really strange for them suddenly to drop everything.  Someone suggested that they just have new friends now, ones with babies on the way or young families and that's why we don't see them. But then what about church? Unless they are not coming because they don't want to see us, which would be weird to avoid an entire group, then it very well could be a faith issue. I know for a few weeks they had been going to the family service instead, without mentioning anything to us, we just thought they weren't around, but I found out from someone who goes to that service that it only lasted a few weeks and they haven't been there in ages now either.

Nothing at the church has changed that would obviously cause them to leave and none of us have changed but it may they have their own reasons.

I don't think we will ever know!

[Lynda_34]

Up thread someone mentioned that husband came for coffee as a control issue.  I'd continue to be distant but friendly.  You really don't know their dynamics and he could be tryring to isolate her.

[Danika]

Hello all. I'm new and I've read this entire thread this evening.

Samgirl2, I'm so sorry about the loss of your friendship. I think you've gotten some great support and advice here. I've been in similar situations a few times, and it really made me wonder if my former friend ever viewed our friendship as highly as I had, or if I'd been mistaken.

I definitely believe that your friend knowingly pushed you away. I definitely believe that she brought her husband to coffee in order to prevent herself from addressing her reasons. Whether she asked her husband to come in order to avoid the topic, or he imposed himself in order to prevent it, I don't know.

I'm certain that her pregnancy is what caused the strange behavior. I strongly suspect that despite her comments, it was unintended. I say this because I've had a few friends have this happen to them and they behaved similarly in that they avoided the topic until late in their pregnancies. The most extreme case of this was the first one, when we were 16. She only spoke to me by phone for 8 months, and never revealed that she was pregnant. We went to different schools and none of our mutual friends had seen her in person either. When she finally told me that she was going to have a baby any day now, I told her "congratulations" and did my best to be excited and supportive. She told me that she was happy that I had said congratulations because everyone else they knew (most of her family friends were from church, too) sounded sad, instead. She planned to continue to date her boyfriend, the father of the child. Shortly after that, the last conversation I had with her, she told me that he disappeared. Just moved and didn't leave a forwarding address. After that, I didn't hear from her for 6 years, even though I called and wrote. Out of the blue, I got an invitation to her wedding (FWIW, not to the father of the child). I imagine that all along, she had been embarrassed and was avoiding me and our other friends. She probably felt that she didn't want to hear about how the rest of us were off at university, flirting, partying, and living free spirited lifestyles.


Trimmed

Could it be possible that your friend and her husband have had a change of heart in their religious beliefs? Could they be pulling away from your church as a whole?

I think kokopellimom brings up an interesting point here. A small part of me wonders if all your pregnant friend's comments about home renovation and prams are not true. Maybe she and her husband plan to give the baby up for adoption and don't feel like they can tell the rest of their existing friends that. Maybe they would rather not have baby showers, and discussions about future plans. And that they will just find new friends after the baby is born. Or they're not crossing that bridge until they come to it.

[Samgirl2]

I agree that pregnancy can cause a lot of changes in a person's life--particularly the first one.
 
But, there are some things in what I have read here that would bug the heck out of me if I were the pregnant friend.
 
First of all, even though everyone offered congratulations upon finding out about the woman's pregnancy, the OP keeps reiterating how they kept it a secret for 5 months.
 
I don't know that any part of someone's pregnancy is anyone else's business, no matter how close they are as friends.
Keeping it secret for 5 months in of itself is not the issue, it's the fact they kept it from their closest friends, people they usually confide in, but said they told coworkers and entire family at 3 months. Then when friends try to ask if they want help or to congratulate them and talk baby stuff they shut us all down. And then say no one is happy for them and no one is offering to help. It seems a little odd? Also, pregnant friend does not know that everyone thinks this.
 
And the statements about how they have backed off of a lot of their leadership roles in the church not being OK somehow.
It is ok for them to do that and I have asked if they want to do that, and so has a member of the church leadership, because it would be totally normal. I also said, tyring to be a supportive friend, that I knew their priorities would change now but we hoped they'd still come when they could etc. They both said they didn't want to give up, husband planned to carry on with music etc, and she accused me by email of trying to push them out. Yet they have not been to a single thing in a very long time. It is fine and expected that they do not have the time or energy to commit to leadership stuff, but not to even attend a 1 hour or so service and sit in the congregation once in a while? Their faith was really important to them which is why the fact they've stopped coming completely, when if they wanted to avoid all of us they could go to a different service - there are three on a sunday - is puzzling. It seems like they can't admit to themslevs that things have changed.
 

But, overall, I would feel really uncomfortable knowing that everyone is talking about the "situation."
 How would they know, they have not seen or spoken to us.

Part of being a friend is letting someone be who they are and not just who you expect them to be or who you need them to be.
I agree, but when someone's personality does a complete 180 I think friends would be concerned
 
Obviously, her pregnancy has changed her life in ways that she doesn't have the time or attention to give to the OP or others from the church.  And indeed, pulling back from leadership responsibilities at a time like this is something that is usually expected.

People change as they go through life.  If there are people around who can't handle that, I can well understand the woman's pulling away. In general I agree with you, but she/they pulled away before even giving us a chance, that is why I found it hard and why I know other friends are confused.
 
.......
 
But, in this case, it seemed to me that there were just so many expectations on this couple--they were supposed to announce their pregnancy earlier, she was not allowed to have a small rant about how she felt irrational though it may have been, then that led to people talking about how something was going on, etc, etc, etc.
The only expectations on this couple were that we were friends. It is up to them when they announce their pregnancy and everyone congratulated them and felt it was a little unusual to wait so long but thought hey, it's up to them. However I don't think expecting that they may want to mention it now an again now that people know, or to have people be interested is unusual? At first people tried to ask how she was, just general stuff, and she always shut them down.  Her rant was not a small one and was completely unfounded. I could have gone off on her but I didn't. I wrote very carefully and apologetically and tried to reach out to her and be understanding and told her I was around if she ever needed me. I didn't demand she be at anything or meet up with me, just tried to say I understood, was her friend and to let me know if she needed anything. She shut it down with 'thanks for your email, lets draw a line under this' and the following day walked away from me in the street hoping I hadn't seen her..
 
I wouldn't want to go back to that.  I would wonder why people couldn't just leave me be and accept me for who I am and trust that the decisions I make in regards to when I reveal a pregnancy or chose to continue in a position at church.

But they don't know what they would be going to. They weren't around for 5 months because they were keeping the pregnancy quiet. We get, that's not an issue, but since they announced it, they still haven't been around and have been avoiding any contact - even email or text which is totally totally out of character. The only time anyone has spoken to them it has been to try to reach and  say hi and enquire how they're doing and pregnant friend has given the bare minimum response.. I don't see how they would think there was a major situation to avoid, unless they have a major situation they don't want us to know about and so are avoiding us because of that.

Bold bits by OP

[kokopellimom]

I don't see how they would think there was a major situation to avoid, unless they have a major situation they don't want us to know about and so are avoiding us because of that.

One other thing occurred to me as well. (whited out because it is a sensitive topic) My cousin and his wife had a baby a couple of years ago, and he had a syndrome that was incompatible with life, which they knew about from early in the pregnancy. He lived less than an hour after birth. It was hard for Cousin and Wife to deal with the knowledge that their pregnancy would have a very sad outcome, and they withdrew and isolated a lot from friends, even as they leaned on family. Cousin said that he couldn't deal with public sympathy without breaking down, and he wasn't comfortable showing those emotions to anyone but family.

I hope so much that your friends aren't facing something like that, but it could be a possibility. I'd keep the distance she seems to want, but keep my mind open. It may be that she'll need her friends later, but can't face them right now.

[sparksals]

OP

Keeping it secret for 5 months in of itself is not the issue, it's the fact they kept it from their closest friends, people they usually confide in, but said they told coworkers and entire family at 3 months. Then when friends try to ask if they want help or to congratulate them and talk baby stuff they shut us all down. And then say no one is happy for them and no one is offering to help. It seems a little odd? Also, pregnant friend does not know that everyone thinks this.

I think AQ does have a point.  From what you wrote above, OP, it does sound like you expected to be notified earlier.  While you were close friends, I don't see anything wrong with them not telling close friends of the pg.  Even though she confided in you in the past, doesn't mean she must continue to do so.  That is entirely their choice.  However, mixed with everything else, their strange behaviour, her lash outs etc,. you definitely are justified in your confused and hurt feelings.
 

[Danika]

I didn't get the impression that OP expected to be notified earlier than she was. Just that the couple avoided people for those five months and that that was the weird part. In my first pregnancy, I accepted a new job offer the week that I found out I was pregnant. Normally, if I'd been at a company for a while, I would have told them at about 3 months pregnant, but because I didn't know these coworkers or how the boss would feel about me having to go on maternity leave within less than a year of starting there, I decided to not tell them for as long as I could. So, I wore baggy clothes and no one knew or suspected that I was pregnant until I told them at 6 1/2 months. But my behavior never changed. I was always friendly and professional, never standoffish and distant. I get the impression that that's what OP was focused on - the behavior, not the "secret" itself. That her friends were pulling away from everyone, and that it seems to be related to the pregnancy. But not that she or others were owed any information sooner.

I find myself agreeing with kokopellimom again in the whited out comments in post 165. I respect and understand an expectant family in that position withdrawing and avoiding addressing that issue or showing emotions to friends. But I would hope that the expecting couple would still tell friends "We have some things going on in our lives. We do not want to share or discuss them. Please, accept our apologies that we will be distant. We do not intend you any ill will" rather than just dodging them and *blaming* them. But I have fortunately never been in that position, so I can't say how they should be acting. Just how I would hope they would act, if that were the case.