Author Topic: This little piggy . . . and other rhymes  (Read 1670 times)

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scotcat60

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Re: This little piggy . . . and other rhymes
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2014, 06:56:34 AM »
Daisy Daisy the coppers are after you
If they catch you they'll give you a year or two
They'll tie you up with wire behind a black maria
So ring your bell and pedal like h*ll
Cause the coppers are after you!

cabbageweevil

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Re: This little piggy . . . and other rhymes
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2014, 07:03:47 AM »
From the UK, but not in English -- possibly not in any known tongue !  A short rhythmic chant, not actually rhyming, which has come down in our family over at least the past hundred years -- recited by parents to kids, through the generations. It goes (approximately) as follows:

Dummocka, dummocka, oakan-doran,
Allowee-hand, and off-tand, and sheeran;
Krish-tin, shtoopan,
Ay, nay, nay, nay, nay !

Some in the family, have the notion that this jingle may possibly come from Swedish.  Also; during World War I, my mother's parents became friends with a Belgian refugee family -- conceivably, the "thing" could have come from them -- it might with a bit of exercise of the imagination, be suspected to be some sort of mutation of Flemish?  If by any remote chance anyone here is acquainted with the above "stuff", and knows its origin -- I'd be fascinated to hear !



oz diva

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Re: This little piggy . . . and other rhymes
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2014, 07:47:35 AM »
Not a nursey rhyme, but we used to sing They tried to make me go to ballet, I said no no no.

Victoria

Lillybet

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Re: This little piggy . . . and other rhymes
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2014, 08:38:24 AM »
From the UK, but not in English -- possibly not in any known tongue !  A short rhythmic chant, not actually rhyming, which has come down in our family over at least the past hundred years -- recited by parents to kids, through the generations. It goes (approximately) as follows:

Dummocka, dummocka, oakan-doran,
Allowee-hand, and off-tand, and sheeran;
Krish-tin, shtoopan,
Ay, nay, nay, nay, nay !

Some in the family, have the notion that this jingle may possibly come from Swedish.  Also; during World War I, my mother's parents became friends with a Belgian refugee family -- conceivably, the "thing" could have come from them -- it might with a bit of exercise of the imagination, be suspected to be some sort of mutation of Flemish?  If by any remote chance anyone here is acquainted with the above "stuff", and knows its origin -- I'd be fascinated to hear !

There is a lot of evidence that Dutch and Flemish settlers in the UK took back nursery rhymes when they returned home and over time the language devolved away from English (which was nonsense words to a Dutch speaker anyway) to actual nonsense words. Apparently the only way you can work out the original is in the melody and the tempo.

I love the history of nursery rhymes and there is an excellent book called Pop Goes The Weasel which goes through the history of the most popular ones (although there is controversy about the authors evaluation of Humpty Dumpty).

I have been listening to old Playschool tapes (an Aussie television show for kids) in eh car with Little Bet. I've found several that don't quite match with what I remember. Do the wheels on the bus go up and down all the way to town, or through the city streets or all day long?

However my favourite one at the moment comes from the 1980s Playschool tape...

Humpty planted cabbages
He wanted them to grow
He gave them milk and lemonade
And poked them with his toe


They didn't grow you know.

cabbageweevil

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Re: This little piggy . . . and other rhymes
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2014, 05:23:14 AM »
From the UK, but not in English -- possibly not in any known tongue !  A short rhythmic chant, not actually rhyming, which has come down in our family over at least the past hundred years -- recited by parents to kids, through the generations. It goes (approximately) as follows:

Dummocka, dummocka, oakan-doran,
Allowee-hand, and off-tand, and sheeran;
Krish-tin, shtoopan,
Ay, nay, nay, nay, nay !

Some in the family, have the notion that this jingle may possibly come from Swedish.  Also; during World War I, my mother's parents became friends with a Belgian refugee family -- conceivably, the "thing" could have come from them -- it might with a bit of exercise of the imagination, be suspected to be some sort of mutation of Flemish?  If by any remote chance anyone here is acquainted with the above "stuff", and knows its origin -- I'd be fascinated to hear !

There is a lot of evidence that Dutch and Flemish settlers in the UK took back nursery rhymes when they returned home and over time the language devolved away from English (which was nonsense words to a Dutch speaker anyway) to actual nonsense words. Apparently the only way you can work out the original is in the melody and the tempo.

For sure, cultural back-and-forth of all kinds across the North Sea over the centuries...

Quote
I love the history of nursery rhymes and there is an excellent book called Pop Goes The Weasel which goes through the history of the most popular ones (although there is controversy about the authors evaluation of Humpty Dumpty).

The thing I'd heard about the origin of "Humpty Dumpty", which I liked, is about its coming from the English Civil War. "Humpty Dumpty" was supposedly the name of a massive cannon defending the walls of Colchester, where Parliamentarians were besieging Royalists: said cannon supposedly suffered a mishap and fell down from its position, getting irreparably damaged. "All the king's horses and all the kings' men..." is thought to involve a jibe by the Parliamentarians, at their incompetent enemies.  Those who like this explanation, consider that Lewis Carroll muddied the waters with his "Humpty Dumpty" chapter in Alice Through the Looking-Glass.
 

helixa

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Re: This little piggy . . . and other rhymes
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2014, 01:48:23 AM »
Our family came to NZ from Northern Ireland and I only discovered recently that DH knows the little piggy rhyme as having roast beef - our family knows it as bread and butter instead!
   

Ceallach

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Re: This little piggy . . . and other rhymes
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2014, 02:27:39 AM »
I learned the eeny-meeny rhyme with the original wording in the early 70s. Maybe at school or from one of the older cousins. I didn't know what the n-word meant until much later (not in common usage here IME - have certainly heard racist slurs but different words). Used tiger as substitute later on.

Pretty sure I read Agatha Christie at school under the original title too.

I always enjoyed reading old novels, particularly boarding school books - there are many from the 1950s era.   I was horrified a few years back when reading a novel to discover the characters - as a side story - were engaged in a knitting competition to knit clothing to send overseas for charities working in third world countries.  Delightful, surely?   Except the competition was unashamedly referred to as "Knitting for the N--s" repeatedly throughout.   (Insert extremely inappropriate racist term).   It goes to show how quickly social change can happen and a word can go from common casual usage to being unacceptable once people become more aware.   

As a young child, I unfortunately learnt the "original" version of the eeny meeny miny mo nursery rhyme from an old storybook, and my grandmother heard my sister and I say it while playing and was horrified, she told us we had to say "tiger" instead and made it clear that what we had said was not ok and why.  After her explanation I was mortified and have never ever let that word pass my lips since.   But I also don't use the rhyme at all now as I personally feel that replacing an offensive term doesn't change the origins of the rhyme itself or what it was originally intended for.
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cabbageweevil

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Re: This little piggy . . . and other rhymes
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2014, 06:18:19 AM »
I always enjoyed reading old novels, particularly boarding school books - there are many from the 1950s era.   I was horrified a few years back when reading a novel to discover the characters - as a side story - were engaged in a knitting competition to knit clothing to send overseas for charities working in third world countries.  Delightful, surely?  Except the competition was unashamedly referred to as "Knitting for the N--s" repeatedly throughout.   (Insert extremely inappropriate racist term).   It goes to show how quickly social change can happen and a word can go from common casual usage to being unacceptable once people become more aware.   

As a young child, I unfortunately learnt the "original" version of the eeny meeny miny mo nursery rhyme from an old storybook, and my grandmother heard my sister and I say it while playing and was horrified, she told us we had to say "tiger" instead and made it clear that what we had said was not ok and why.  After her explanation I was mortified and have never ever let that word pass my lips since.   But I also don't use the rhyme at all now as I personally feel that replacing an offensive term doesn't change the origins of the rhyme itself or what it was originally intended for.

Not to defend the use of ugly and demeaning language; but it's perhaps worth bearing in mind, "that was then".  In my perception, in many parts of the world that word was used casually and thoughtlessly, rather than as a conscious and deliberate term of insult / contempt / hatred.  There's the business, from approximately the same era as the "knitting" situation mentioned, of the World War II "Dam Busters" saga -- which got some media exposure a couple of years ago, with the film being given a modern re-make.  Most unfortunately from a present-day point of view: Guy Gibson, the leader of the squadron, had named his black Labrador dog with the N-word -- which comes to the fore, because in the actual mission and in the 1950s (I think) film about it, the name was used as a spoken code-word.  I'd reckon that as a Briton in the first half of the twentieth century, Gibson had quite possibly never met a black person; and if he had, I think it likely that he would have treated said person, with perfect courtesy.

Gyburc

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Re: This little piggy . . . and other rhymes
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2014, 06:50:41 AM »
POD to cabbageweevil.

Regarding the Little Piggy rhyme, I used to have my own version which went '...this little piggy had all the roast pork, but this little piggy wasn't a cannibal, so he didn't.' I try not to use this one with Little G!  ;D


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