No, I will not notarize your blank document

[geordicat]

because he can then change the document after I've signed and stamped.  He can add stuff that wasn't there before, or change the parameters of the document so it's TOTALLY different from what I signed.   

[Fleur-de-Lis]

I did ask Sean why he signed in the middle of those signature blocks.  He just said "I guess I'm a middle of the page kind of guy."

Still not signing with blank areas.  

i must be very cynical, but i'm not thinking Sean is a middle of the page kind of guy.  i'm thinking Sean wanted it notarized, and then some other top of the page kind of people would be signing.  

Why would he want to have people sign after the fact?  What am I missing?

Among other things, you can arrange for a home loan or the sale of a house.

You can also add in text about an adult having permission to take a child overseas, etc.

All an Acknowledgment says is, "Jim showed up in front of me, and Jim told me he signed the document."  (Jim does *not* have to sign the document in front of the notary - the Acknowledgment form of notarization says only that "Jim says he signed the document".  If you want "I saw Jim sign the document," that's a different form - called a Jurat.)  

Anyway - now that various organizations are using them for field trips, etc. (to confirm a parent (or somebody convincingly claiming to be the parent/guardian) *showed up* in front of a notary to have the document sealed, there are various sorts of low-level identity fraud possible, as well as real estate matters, etc.

Emma

Get a notarized document, then have somebody else sign later.  Although the notarizations I have

[geordicat]

I do check our employee badges at work.  Even if I know the person by sight, I check the name on the badge matches the name in my journal. 

Checking ID is part of the process!

[wolfie]

because he can then change the document after I've signed and stamped.  He can add stuff that wasn't there before, or change the parameters of the document so it's TOTALLY different from what I signed.   

But he can do that after you signed it even if there were no blanks in the form.

[still in va]

He needs to have his evil genius license revoked, if he tries to cover up things while you're looking at it! 

yeah, if he can't even do a decent evil genius mind control spell, there's no point. 

[sparksals]

because he can then change the document after I've signed and stamped.  He can add stuff that wasn't there before, or change the parameters of the document so it's TOTALLY different from what I signed.   

Oh yes, I know this, but I'm wondering why he would leave signature places blank.  If someone is up to no good, wouldn't they not want additional signatures?  Of course, he could have planned to forge in the others. 

[Fleur-de-Lis]

because he can then change the document after I've signed and stamped.  He can add stuff that wasn't there before, or change the parameters of the document so it's TOTALLY different from what I signed.  

But he can do that after you signed it even if there were no blanks in the form.

That's why notaries line through empty spaces.  

If the name is at the middle of the page, with a lot of blank space above it, the blank space above it should be lined out.  

And if there are multiple signers and the document is being signed in counterparts, with each signature notarized, the signature blocks for the others need to be either filled in at the same time, with the notary notarizing all signatures, or the blocks need to be lined through.

[geordicat]

because he can then change the document after I've signed and stamped.  He can add stuff that wasn't there before, or change the parameters of the document so it's TOTALLY different from what I signed.   

But he can do that after you signed it even if there were no blanks in the form.

If there was a big blank space on the form, yes.  We look for that kind of thing.  We also check for ways it could be altered (at least I do).   I also have everyone who is signing the document *in front of me* sign my journal book that most notaries keep.  If it ever came down to someone changing a document after I've signed, my journal book shows what I signed and who was present.  If there are additional signatures, then someone tried to pull a fast one.

 

[Cz. Burrito]

I did ask Sean why he signed in the middle of those signature blocks.  He just said "I guess I'm a middle of the page kind of guy."

Still not signing with blank areas. 

i must be very cynical, but i'm not thinking Sean is a middle of the page kind of guy.  i'm thinking Sean wanted it notarized, and then some other top of the page kind of people would be signing.   

Yep.  This is why we don't notarize blank pages.  He came in this morning and said "You've been vindicated.  I talked to 2 other notaries and they, too, refused to sign a blank page."

Funny.  That's what I said, and I even showed him the rule in the book.

Funny.  I wasn't aware that you needed to be vindicated.  How thoughtful of him.   

[pierrotlunaire0]

This is such a sore point with me.  At the DMV, we need to examine documents, and we often refuse documents if unacceptable.  Only to have the customer have the document notarized, which somehow makes the unacceptable document magically okay.

For example: teenager is applying for a driver's license.  Instead of the birth certificate, he presents a Xerox of it.  I refuse it: we need to see the real BC, not a copy.  So the father rushes across the street to his bank, and comes back: he now has it notarized!  I call the bank, and spoke to the employee who had notarized it: "Just exactly what were you attesting to?"

"Listen, they asked for my notary seal, and I did it.  What's the big problem?"

I was so flabbergasted I could not even explain.  I did say that she needed to go over her rules because she didn't know what she was doing.  What made me even angrier was the fact that notaries are licensed out of the same branch of state government that I work for!

My experience has been that the notaries I have dealt with either know their stuff cold, or they are totally clueless.  Ugh!

[geordicat]

You are correct, pierrotlunaire0.  I take my notary duties pretty darn seriously.   Birth certificates can not be notarized.

Whoever is signing the document must be in front of me.  MUST.  I even made my neighbors wait until they were together, and I've lived next to them for 3 years.  I would not trust my own mother to have her SO sign a document notarized by me unless they were both right in front of me.

I keep my notary handbook handy and it's one of the things I actually pull out of my case when I'm about to notarize something.  I have my journal, my stamp thing, my squishy thing, the gold foil stars (because using the embosser on that looks so totally cool!!!) extra pens and that handbook.    I explain to people why they are about to sign the journal.  It's to protect them AND me if anything were to happen and they have to prove that the document really was notarized.  if there's ever any question about the validity of the document or my stamp/signature, the journal is there to protect everyone.    I also tell them if someone were to change the document after I sign, what's in the journal is the correct one, and if the document has different information, guess who's in trouble?  NOT ME!!   

Notarizing a copy of a public document such as a birth certificate or death certificate only says "this is a copy" and not "this is a CERTIFIED copy."  I instruct people to go to the courthouse for that.  People that want a copy of these documents require CERTIFIED copies. 

Most people are pretty cool about it and happy to sign it.  I've only had one person who didn't want to put down his information.  I'm not going to deny services for not signing the journal (because in my state it's not required) but he walked away and said he'd go elsewhere.  He was polite about it, he just didn't want his personal information in the journal. 

[wolfie]

So you make a copy of the document for your journal? So you can prove that the change wasn't there when you stamped it? That is pretty cool - I wouldn't have an issue with that.

[geordicat]

no, no copies in the journal. Just name, what the document is, the type of notary (jurat, acknowledgement) address of where the notarization happened, address of the person, their signature and the type of ID they used to prove it was them.

So if they wanted me to notarize a power of attorney for John Q Public and somehow magically it turned into a "Susie Cutsie can take junior into another country".... you know something is up.

http://www.sos.ne.gov/business/notary/pdf/journal.pdf

[It's good to be Queen]

I also am a notary, primarily for work since many of our documents need to be notarized.  I will notarize work documents my boss has signed, even if I don't see him sign it because he has a very distinct signature that i would recognize anywhere.  For everything else, you need to sign it in my presence.  I have had employees get quite angry when I refuse to notarize something that their spouse has signed at home.  I have never met their spouse, have not seen them sign the document and have no idea if they consent to having hubby's 401k beneficiary changed (or the car sold or the kids go to Mexico.....).  

Most people think that notarizing a some form of useless formality and have no idea that the notary is attesting that the person who signed the document did it of their own free will and deed (yes, i make you raise your hand and swear to it) and that I have seen valid ID that proves you are who you say you are.

[threepenny]

I generally don't go as far as to administer the oath to someone I know, but I will also not notarize if I haven't seen the person sign the document.  Former co-worker of mine used to constantly notarize back dated documents - and not just back dated, but signed by people she had never laid eyes on.  Used to drive me batty because it was so dishonest.