Author Topic: Natalie Portman and her Stand-In  (Read 12652 times)

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artk2002

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Re: Natalie Portman and her Stand-In
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2011, 11:21:22 PM »
Fox clearly forgot the lesson of the Streisand Effect.
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Iris

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Re: Natalie Portman and her Stand-In
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2011, 06:29:34 AM »
My daughter's ballet teacher was Nicole Kidman's dance and body double for Moulin Rouge. I've never heard her talk about it at all, although it is listed in her bio that is printed on concert programs. Just sayin'...

I also recall seeing an interview with Audrey Hepburn about My Fair Lady where the interviewer is commenting on her lovely singing voice and speculating whether she got help on the high notes. Although Ms Hepburn looks a little embarassed at that point, she says nothing to correct him (it's never her singing voice, at all).

A double is a double. It's their job to be invisible.
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Sharnita

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Re: Natalie Portman and her Stand-In
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2011, 07:45:52 AM »
The fact that it wasn't Hepburn singign was so well publicized that she probably looked embarrassed because the reporter was the one human being she had run into who wasn't aware of the fact.

Sabbyfrog2

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Re: Natalie Portman and her Stand-In
« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2011, 09:24:33 AM »
That scene where she is stretching in her apartment and she puts her leg up to the ceiling while keeping her face down-- that wasn't Natalie, right? That couldn't have been. Only a professional dancer could possibably stretch to that degree!

Why can't you believe that Natalie did that? Because she is just an actress? Because I use to be able do that stretch and I am certainly not a prima ballerina or professional dancer. I have had training, but am not a "dancer". I am a singer and actress but I can dance very well and often get cast in "dance" roles. When I was doing more dance musicals, I could do that stretch. (Now it's a matter of lack of conditioning and age catching up to me... :P )  You can condition your body to do that with some disciplined training and when you consider that it was Natalie's only job to train like that for over a year, and she had had some training prior to that, I have no doubt that she could have conditioned her body to do that stretch. She, from what I understand, is extremely disciplined and I don't have any reason to doubt that she didn't push her body to it's limit to get the stuff she could do just right.

Even if it wasn't her though, who cares? It's still her acting that was recognized not her dancing.

http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Movies/2011/0330/Mila-Kunis-says-Natalie-Portman-did-most-of-her-own-dance-moves-in-Black-Swan

The article reports that they counted dance shots, and out of 129, 111 were Portman's.

Well that seems like the majority of the dancing to me. The pro did the stuff that would have been more difficult for Natalie to do as well, which is what Natalie and the studio said she did. Why are people so up in arms that her double didn't get the "recognition"? She did. No one denied she did that stuff. They just didn't fall all over themselves to give her the "status" it seems so many think she should get for her role in he movie. Her role was to be invisible. Her job was to help maintain the illusion. She did that. Why do people want more now?

Do I think Natalie would have been nice to thank Lane in her speech? Yes, but I certainly don't think it was necessary and I am certainly not going to hold the studio or Natalie accountable for it. A LOT of people were involved in making that movie, and a LOT of people were involved in making Natalie look good. They did their jobs well and their reward was that the actress they were suppossed to make look good won the award.  She can't possibly be expected to thank every.single.person. That speech would last for hours. Besides, it would make more sense to me that the "best actress" would want to thank the people who helped them 'act' right? I don't imagine that Lane was the one that helped her with that. Lane and Portman likely didn't interact all that much, if at all on set. Lane was really a tool of the director and editor. And if I recall, Portman did do a blanket thank you to the people who made her look good in her speech (though I don't remember specifically what she said). I would imagine that included her double.

There is dignity and professionalism in the way other doubles handle thier roles. They don't make a fuss about not getting the recognition. They know that their job is to be invisible and make the actor look good. To maintain the illusion for the film... and they do it well. Other doubles and magazine writers don't go around proclaiming thier fears that martial arts is going to be portrayed a certain way or claim ninja expoitation when a new Karate movie comes out and the fight double for the star isn't thanked properly. No one went after the studio for not properly thanking Heath Ledgers double after Dark Knight came out and he won the Oscar. Christian Bale also had a double for the fight scenes. No one called him ungracious for not thanking that guy at the Golden Globes. No one went around counting the scenes where Pierce Brosnan was diving from bombs vs his double in the Bond movies.

The magazine and the dancer made it an issue and I have more of a problem with that then the fact that Portman didn't thank her directly at the Oscars or the studio didn't give Lane more "recognition".  Does it hurt the film or is it going to hurt DVD sales? Probably not, but it does taint the illusion now.

Wonderflonium

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Re: Natalie Portman and her Stand-In
« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2011, 09:53:55 AM »
Besides, it would make more sense to me that the "best actress" would want to thank the people who helped them 'act' right?

Well, actually, she did thank at least 2 people who worked with her on dance, so....

In theory, I get that doubles should be behind the scenes, but the fact that the studio decided to pull and supress video showing Lane doing certain moves and Portman's face being superimposed over hers is frankly shady and it makes me wonder what else they are hiding. It also makes me take the shot count with a huge shaker of salt, especially as I have seen different estimates reported by different people affiliated with the movie (and the number of shots of Portman keeps growing; what, are they recutting the film?).

If everyone had just kept their yaps shut, I really wouldn't have cared if Lane got recognition. The problem is that some people started writing about Portman getting credit for some of Lane's work, and instead of just letting it lie and fade away, Millepied (who, as her fiance, could very well be biased) and Aronofsky had to jump in the fray and downplay Lane's role. It was only then that Lane spoke out, so I fail to see why this is "her fault." If Millepied and Aronofsky had just let it lie or just responded, "Of course there was a double," it would have been fine. However, there was definitely a concerted effort on the part of the studio to hint if not say that Portman did just about all of the dancing because they wanted her to get an Oscar (lead actress Oscar = big press and $$$$).

I just can't possibly see how this is Lane's fault when she didn't start the discussion or stoke the fires.
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PeasNCues

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Re: Natalie Portman and her Stand-In
« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2011, 09:55:44 AM »
Besides, it would make more sense to me that the "best actress" would want to thank the people who helped them 'act' right?

Well, actually, she did thank at least 2 people who worked with her on dance, so....
But those are people who she intensely worked with for a long time who taught HER to dance rather than someone who did some of the dance moves in the movie.
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Wonderflonium

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Re: Natalie Portman and her Stand-In
« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2011, 10:01:11 AM »
Besides, it would make more sense to me that the "best actress" would want to thank the people who helped them 'act' right?

Well, actually, she did thank at least 2 people who worked with her on dance, so....
But those are people who she intensely worked with for a long time who taught HER to dance rather than someone who did some of the dance moves in the movie.

Yes, but it does show that she thanked people involved in the dance aspect, not just the acting aspect. Plus, Lane danced for her, which to me makes a difference. Be that as it may, I wouldn't have cared one way or the other if things hadn't gone so haywire over this.
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Miss March

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Re: Natalie Portman and her Stand-In
« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2011, 10:42:32 AM »
Quote
Why can't you believe that Natalie did that? Because she is just an actress? Because I use to be able do that stretch and I am certainly not a prima ballerina or professional dancer. I have had training, but am not a "dancer"

Sabbyfrog, you seem to have taken offense at my post. Perhaps my tone came across wrong. When I was watching "Black Swan" and I saw the moment where the woman on screen lifted her leg up, up, up, so impossibly high and straight over her head, with her head down on her knee- my jaw was on the floor. I was like "daaaaaaaaammmmmmmnnnnnn," that a person can even do that! It was just an astonishing physical movement. Like in "White Knights" where Mikael Baryshnikov ever so casually put his leg straight up a wall and put his head against his knee almost like he was bored to do it. It's just one of those on-screen moments where people in the audience (like myself) who have never seen such flexibility all gap in amazement. It was like watching Cirque de Soliel and being ASTOUNDED by what people are capable of doing with their bodies.

So I was gushing that I thought a professional dancer must have done that. I was just amazed at the extreme flexibility. I wasn't making any comment that Natalie Portman was "only an actress." I actually said I thought she was a great actress in the same post, so I am not sure why you thought I was being dismissive of her work.
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Sabbyfrog2

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Re: Natalie Portman and her Stand-In
« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2011, 11:37:36 AM »

Yes, but it does show that she thanked people involved in the dance aspect, not just the acting aspect. Plus, Lane danced for her, which to me makes a difference. Be that as it may, I wouldn't have cared one way or the other if things hadn't gone so haywire over this.

But she didn't do ALL the dancing for her. Just the hard stuff that Natalie couldn't do. It's not unheard of. The other dances were simplified and edited to look good. And Lane knew that those were the terms of the agreement when she did it, and the studio admitted to using a double in the beginning so I don't understand the hub bub about it. They never denied that Lane was used as a double. I don't think they even downplayed it. It wasn't until after the article that it became a big deal becuase of the illusion the studio wanted to keep when the article came out and it made them look like they were lying about her involvement. Honestly, I don't blame them. That movie is thier "business" and the illusion is part of that business and as long as they aren't engaging in illegal or unethical activity to make the movie, I don't care how the movie was made. Now as far as how Lane was credited, I have to concede the point that that was kind of shady, but I still don't object to the studio not wanting to ruin the illusion of the film.

 I actually have to agree with you on the bolded though. If all parties had just used the coke rule the whole thing would have blown over.  :P

Miss March, I am truly sorry if I misread your post. It did come across to me that you were doubting that she did that because she isn't a professional dancer. If that's not what you meant then I apologize.

I took offense only because I often get pigeonholed and it's quite frustrating as a performer to be told "That's impossible. You're not a dancer!" when it's not impossible at all. I have a raw talent for it and I am very disiplined. I have had some training but I certainly don't advertise myself a dancer. I can however keep up with the dancers who have been studying for years and that's all they do. (Although I will admit to needing some polish.) I am still amazed at the ones who balk at me getting leads in "dance" shows because "they've been dancing longer". Well, I am not a "dancer". I am an actress and I got hired because I can sell it. At showtime, I am able to make people believe that I have been dancing for years. That's all the audience cares about; not my years, or lackthereof, of training.
I feel the same way about Natalie in this situation. She may have had to use a double for the harder stuff, just like my choreographers will simplify some of the choreography for me, but Natalie sold us the illusion that she was a dancer with what she could do. I was bothered by the implication that she couldn't pull that off because she isn't a professional dancer when the reality is she did.

I think a lot of the balkers (not here but in general) are forgetting that it's film, not a live performance. Then, I would agree with Lane that people would have a misconception about ballet and what it takes to be a ballerina, but in this case, no. No one is that naive, at least not about Hollywood. We all go into a movie knowing there will be smoke and mirrors and stunt doubles and makeup. It lessons some the enjoyment of the movie when they interject reality into the fantasy I allowed myself to be sucked into.

AppleBlossom

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Re: Natalie Portman and her Stand-In
« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2011, 06:08:48 PM »
It does seem unfair if she wasn't credited as "dance double". I thought there were rules about credits to prevent someone being left out?

still in va

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Re: Natalie Portman and her Stand-In
« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2011, 08:59:30 PM »
I think a lot of the balkers (not here but in general) are forgetting that it's film, not a live performance. Then, I would agree with Lane that people would have a misconception about ballet and what it takes to be a ballerina, but in this case, no. No one is that naive, at least not about Hollywood. We all go into a movie knowing there will be smoke and mirrors and stunt doubles and makeup. It lessons some the enjoyment of the movie when they interject reality into the fantasy I allowed myself to be sucked into.

Sabby, add me to the list of those who doesn't want to know how they do stuff when i'm watching a movie.  the hubs used to watch a series of tv programs that showed how the special effects were done.  i'd always leave the room.  it's like a magic trick.  once you know how it operates, it's not as much fun to watch.  obviously, i know the dragons in Harry Potter were special effects.  i don't need to know exactly HOW they created the dragons.  i just want to enjoy watching the dragons fly....or watch the the broom come speeding along when Harry calls out "Accio Firebolt!".


still in va

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Re: Natalie Portman and her Stand-In
« Reply #56 on: April 07, 2011, 09:05:35 PM »
It does seem unfair if she wasn't credited as "dance double". I thought there were rules about credits to prevent someone being left out?

according to IMDB, she was listed as Natalie Portman's stunt double.  in addition, when one clicks on her name, she has three listings for the film: Lady in the Lane, stunt double (Natalie), and dance double (Natalie).  she got the credit that she signed on for.

perhaps it's just my common sense, but i'm thinking that if someone is listed as a stunt double in a film where the star is supposed to be a prima ballerina, that she is doing at least some of the dancing in the film.  

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0947798/fullcredits#cast

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« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 09:38:43 PM by still in va »

iradney

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Re: Natalie Portman and her Stand-In
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2011, 04:09:10 AM »
One has to wonder if all this bruhaha would still have occured if Natalie Portman hadn't won the Oscar, or even been nominated?
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evely28

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Re: Natalie Portman and her Stand-In
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2011, 04:18:52 PM »
OK. So now it seems the brouha is that Portman didn't acknowledge her double in her acceptance speech on Oscar night.

www.seattlepi.com/ae/tv/tvguide/article/Natalie-Portman-on-Dance-Double-Controversy-I-1328621.php

Ceiling Fan

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Re: Natalie Portman and her Stand-In
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2011, 06:28:37 PM »
OK. So now it seems the brouha is that Portman didn't acknowledge her double in her acceptance speech on Oscar night.

www.seattlepi.com/ae/tv/tvguide/article/Natalie-Portman-on-Dance-Double-Controversy-I-1328621.php

Wow. Portman says she can't even remember what she said during her speech, and hasn't watched it because she's too embarassed. And I believe that, I mean it's a freakin oscar, she might have been a bit overwhelmed, and not thinking clearly.

But this is a bit more double-edged than it seems at first:

I don't want to tarnish it by entering into nastiness," Portman tells E! Online. "I'm really proud of everyone's work in the movie and my experience. I'll have that forever. So it's nice for me to always know about that no matter what kind of nastiness or gossip is going around."

At first it sounds gracious and 'above the fray', until you realise she's pretty much called her double 'nasty' and a 'gossip'. Or maybe I'm reading it wrong, and she's not actually directing that at Lane. Maybe it's directed at gossip rags, like, oh, say E-online to whom she keeps giving interviews ::)

Still, regardless of what's going on now, I feel that Lane was in the wrong from the start, to be sounding petulant and publically kvetching about the lack of appreciation. You aren't the star honey, you aren't even an actress. Though in her December Dance Magazine interview, she said that 'if she wasn't able to pursue dance at some point, she'd go into acting'. I wonder if she just torpedo'd that for herself?

Anyway. Mila Kunis is just babbling at this point:

"She'll tell you [that], no, she was not on pointe when she did a fouetté [turn]," Kunis says. "No one's going to deny that. But she did do every ounce of every one of her dances. [Lane] wasn't used for everything. It was more like a safety net. If Nat wasn't able to do something, you'd have a safety net. The same thing that I had — I had a double as a safety net. We all did. No one ever denied it."

What does that even mean? Even if Portman did 85% of the dancing and Lane only did 15%, every one agrees that Lane did the really hard stuff, the stuff she trained for 2 decades to be able to do. But instead of being content with the recognition of the dance world, she thinks she should be praised and thanked from the Oscar pulpit to millions of people?

*seriously shaking my head at how absurd this is getting*