Author Topic: The phrase "a commoner"... isn't this rude?  (Read 11477 times)

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Yvaine

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Re: The phrase "a commoner"... isn't this rude?
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2011, 07:33:54 AM »
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/kate-and-william-romance-and-the-royals/4od

another etiquettehell Brit here. The link is for a really interesting program showing since the middle ages which royals in the UK have married for love not social / political arrangements.

One royal ancestor is a governess turned mistress turned wife of a prince. Her father was a servant in the royal household as was her first husband. Though they were clearly wealthy enough to educate her as she couldn't have been a governess otherwise she was still a commoner. She was also named Catherine and this was back in the 14th century.

Isn't history fascinating  :)

Oh, Catherine Swynford? Her history makes such a great story.  ;D

/history geek

amandaelizabeth

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Re: The phrase "a commoner"... isn't this rude?
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2011, 07:59:23 AM »
And her sister was married to Chaucer.

I think one of her grandsons became monarch but I am not certain about this.

Jess13

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Re: The phrase "a commoner"... isn't this rude?
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2011, 08:33:28 AM »
I believe that untill today William although royal was also a commoner as you have to be a pier of the relm basically have a tital such as Duke, Barron or Marquess (sorry about spellings) or be the reigning monarch to not be a commoner. Prince doesn't count - i guess tradintionally a reigning monarch or titled person holds lands (castles, manors) in their own right whereas a Prince doesn't. just something that was on the evening news the other day.


Wasn't he the Duke of Cambridge before he married Kate? So he wouldn't be a commoner anyway as he's already a Duke.
 

MissRose

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Re: The phrase "a commoner"... isn't this rude?
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2011, 08:57:05 AM »
I've never thought of the word "commoner" as rude.  Then again I am in the USA, and we don't have royalty here. Perhaps, its the nicest way to say the person is not born into royalty or the aristocracy in English or British terms.

I am so glad that Diana raised her kids to learn about life outside the palace walls in so many ways.  I am glad the boys grew up & became good men who will continue their mother's legacy of giving & being involved with the public. 

These days, there are not many royal families left, so it makes more sense for them to either marry someone who is from a rich family or in William's case with his new wife - someone whose family started in the middle class.


Yvaine

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Re: The phrase "a commoner"... isn't this rude?
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2011, 09:02:55 AM »
And her sister was married to Chaucer.

I think one of her grandsons became monarch but I am not certain about this.

I think the first of her descendants to become monarch was Henry VII, though I forget how many generations that was. Henry VII's mom was descended from Katherine Swynford. I still remember the bit at the end of Anya Seton's book about Katherine, about how all the subsequent monarchs are descended from her too. Pretty good for a governess. ;)

ClaireC79

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Re: The phrase "a commoner"... isn't this rude?
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2011, 09:04:10 AM »
William's grandmother made him the Duke of Cambridge yesterday morning, all of her sons were Prince X before their weddings and on the morning of the wedding she bestows the title of Duke (or Earl) on them and then their wife has that associated title

Aluminum

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Re: The phrase "a commoner"... isn't this rude?
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2011, 09:12:13 AM »
This might explain things, not sure if Pulp made it across the Atlantic. Super famous song, usually on the playlist at weddings and stuff. Definitely one of my faves, but it is from 1995, and looks it!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2psqy_pulp-common-people_music
YAY PULP!  My single favourite band.  This song always gets turned up to eleven when it comes on...

Nibsey

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Re: The phrase "a commoner"... isn't this rude?
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2011, 11:03:33 AM »

Actually Richard Woodville was earld'd in 1448, Elizabeth and Edward IV were married in 1464. I think the whole scandal back in the day was that they married in secret, like her mother and father did apparently. Her parents also got fined because they married in secret so they must have been a bit higher up
.
Elizabeth Woodville was the daughter of an Earl, and the widow of a knight (which at minimum would have made her a Lady).  I believe she was referred to as "the widow Lady Grey" at some point.

Apparently she was still a commoner, hence the scandal at the time. I'm loath to use wiki as a source but I don't want to get up and find the source in one of my history books on the princes in the tower. But she had the title of Lady so I can't figure out why she was considered a commoner.  ???

Wiki: As the daughter of Richard Woodville, 1st Earl Rivers, she was the first commoner to marry an English sovereign.

I think Rivers may have gotten Earl'd after his daughter married the king. Edited to add: I also think Elizabeth was Lady Elizabeth, at least in part, because she was a knight's widow rather nthan because of her parentage.

Ah that makes sense, thanks.  :)

I found the answer thanks, apparently "Nobles in Britain are the holder of the title only - not their spouse or children. They were aristocrats but not nobles." Someone explained it as, if you could get your own seat in the house of Lords then you aren't a commoner. So Elizabeth was aristocracy but was still the first commoner to marry a English King.
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Nurvingiel

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Re: The phrase "a commoner"... isn't this rude?
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2011, 01:16:07 PM »
This might explain things, not sure if Pulp made it across the Atlantic. Super famous song, usually on the playlist at weddings and stuff. Definitely one of my faves, but it is from 1995, and looks it!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2psqy_pulp-common-people_music
YAY PULP!  My single favourite band.  This song always gets turned up to eleven when it comes on...
Content not available in my country. What's the song title so I can find it on YouTube? :)
If I had some ham, I could have ham and eggs, if I had some eggs.

RingTailedLemur

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Re: The phrase "a commoner"... isn't this rude?
« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2011, 01:23:25 PM »
This might explain things, not sure if Pulp made it across the Atlantic. Super famous song, usually on the playlist at weddings and stuff. Definitely one of my faves, but it is from 1995, and looks it!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2psqy_pulp-common-people_music
YAY PULP!  My single favourite band.  This song always gets turned up to eleven when it comes on...
Content not available in my country. What's the song title so I can find it on YouTube? :)

Common People  :)

General Jinjur

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Re: The phrase "a commoner"... isn't this rude?
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2011, 02:10:14 PM »
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/kate-and-william-romance-and-the-royals/4od

another etiquettehell Brit here. The link is for a really interesting program showing since the middle ages which royals in the UK have married for love not social / political arrangements.

One royal ancestor is a governess turned mistress turned wife of a prince. Her father was a servant in the royal household as was her first husband. Though they were clearly wealthy enough to educate her as she couldn't have been a governess otherwise she was still a commoner. She was also named Catherine and this was back in the 14th century.

Isn't history fascinating  :)

Oh, Catherine Swynford? Her history makes such a great story.  ;D

/history geek

One of my favorite historical people! I devoured her bio, "Mistress of the Monarchy," whole. The Tudors were descended from her via Margaret Beaufort.

I thought Anne Boleyn was a commoner? I know she was given titles prior to marrying Harry, but I can't recall if they were needed so they could marry, or if it was just a token of his esteem and a promise of his intentions.

Also, why is QEII's husband a prince consort and not king? I know he isn't king because he was 1. not the heir to the British throne, and 2. he never had a coronation, but why? Isn't it usual for a consort to havee a coronation?

Snowy Owl

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Re: The phrase "a commoner"... isn't this rude?
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2011, 02:13:05 PM »
This might explain things, not sure if Pulp made it across the Atlantic. Super famous song, usually on the playlist at weddings and stuff. Definitely one of my faves, but it is from 1995, and looks it!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2psqy_pulp-common-people_music
YAY PULP!  My single favourite band.  This song always gets turned up to eleven when it comes on...
Content not available in my country. What's the song title so I can find it on YouTube? :)

Common People  :)

This is my favourite video on youtube of a version of Common People.  It combines Star Trek with a great song. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXWEM4gZhg4
And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once.

Friedrich Nietzsche

Nurvingiel

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Re: The phrase "a commoner"... isn't this rude?
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2011, 02:14:57 PM »
^ Thank you. Superb.  8)
If I had some ham, I could have ham and eggs, if I had some eggs.

Larrabee

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Re: The phrase "a commoner"... isn't this rude?
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2011, 02:16:10 PM »
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/kate-and-william-romance-and-the-royals/4od

another etiquettehell Brit here. The link is for a really interesting program showing since the middle ages which royals in the UK have married for love not social / political arrangements.

One royal ancestor is a governess turned mistress turned wife of a prince. Her father was a servant in the royal household as was her first husband. Though they were clearly wealthy enough to educate her as she couldn't have been a governess otherwise she was still a commoner. She was also named Catherine and this was back in the 14th century.

Isn't history fascinating  :)

Oh, Catherine Swynford? Her history makes such a great story.  ;D

/history geek

One of my favorite historical people! I devoured her bio, "Mistress of the Monarchy," whole. The Tudors were descended from her via Margaret Beaufort.

I thought Anne Boleyn was a commoner? I know she was given titles prior to marrying Harry, but I can't recall if they were needed so they could marry, or if it was just a token of his esteem and a promise of his intentions.

Also, why is QEII's husband a prince consort and not king? I know he isn't king because he was 1. not the heir to the British throne, and 2. he never had a coronation, but why? Isn't it usual for a consort to havee a coronation?

In the hierarchy of titles, King ranks above queen and its not appropriate for a consort to have a higher title than the actual monarch.  If you marry a king you can be queen (Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon was Queen Elizabeth) but if you marry a queen you can't be king, you become a prince (Prince Albert, Prince Philip).

Consorts don't have coronations because only the monarch has one,regardless of gender and there is only one monarch at a time, right at the top of the pile.

Technically, Prince Philip is one of the queen's subjects, despite being her husband!

Snowy Owl

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Re: The phrase "a commoner"... isn't this rude?
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2011, 02:16:31 PM »
This is a more authentic version of the Pulp song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqgXzPfAxjo&feature=related

I have a weakness for the version with animated Kirk and Spock in though  :)
And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once.

Friedrich Nietzsche