Author Topic: Using the stall for disabled people  (Read 40993 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

rashea

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 9700
Re: Using the stall for disabled people
« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2012, 03:22:54 PM »
....I would still argue that it is rude to tie up any resource for an unusual amount of time, especially when you can choose to use a similar but not identical resource, but a segment of the population cannot make that same choice.

I would feel it was rude to spend a long time in a single toilet restroom as well if you could avoid it. Then you would be keeping all women (assuming you're using the women's room of course) from using the bathroom. I do tend to be more careful of how long I'm in one of those rooms. This isn't' different to me.

I understand where you're coming from, but I really feel like most women are eager to get in, take care of business, and get out again as soon as is humanly possible.  At least, that's my feeling about public restrooms   :)

Sometimes, though, people have to occupy a stall for a while.  I would be interested in knowing how you determine if someone's situation was avoidable?

I think the problem is that people are more likely to use that stall if they know they are going to take awhile. To give some examples of times I thought someone was being rude while using the stall:
1) A full change of clothes in the airport, plus full face makeup (she darted in there ahead of me so I know she put it on while in there).

2) Having a phone conversation in there (rude anyway in my opinion).

3) A full change of clothes when there were changing rooms right next to them in the locker room.

4) Not rude, but not nice was the person who was clearly having issues and darted in there ahead of me. She didn't need the stall for mobility issues (not an assumption, I knew her but she didn't know me), but I can understand wanting more room if you're not feeling well. On the other hand, it meant I needed to leave the building to use the bathroom. This is the one I feel could be arguable. She was using the stall for it's intended purpose, but she also took a resource one step "up" from what she needed, but I couldn't have used the other stalls.

Mrkitty, I fully understand that the law doesn't require people to refrain from using those stalls. I wouldn't even argue that etiquette requires people to not use the stalls ever. I have no issue waiting an appropriate amount of time. On the other hand, when was the last time you waited more than 5 minutes to use a bathroom? Because that happens much more frequently if there is only one bathroom you can use.
"Manners change, principles don't. It's about treating people with consideration, respect and honesty." Peter Post

Vermont

mrkitty

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 769
Re: Using the stall for disabled people
« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2012, 03:38:58 PM »
Rashea, I take your point and agree with you that it is rude to use an ADA compliant facility when it is needed by one who can use ONLY that facility. Especially when said facility is being used for a purpose other than its original intended.

However, I HAVE had to wait much longer than five minutes to use restrooms, both at home and at public places. I just don't think disability equals never having to be inconvenienced in any way. I was disabled at one point in my life, too, so I can say that from experience. I do agree that not only is it rude but indeed a terrible kind of meanness to use the facility knowing a disabled person needs it. But that also goes for non-disabled stalls, too. If I were on my way into a stall in a crowded restroom and I was the next one up, but someone faster than me jumped into it (which HAS happened to me), than I would be angry. I WAS angry. That's the height of rudeness and meanness. But etiquette applies to everyone - disabled and non-disabled alike.
Learn from past. Live in the present. Hope for the future.

Outdoor Girl

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 14225
Re: Using the stall for disabled people
« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2012, 03:42:00 PM »
I will use the handicapped stall quite often, even though I don't absolutely need it.  I'm a larger person and some of the regular stalls are so tiny, I'm not comfortable in there.  I can barely turn around and I almost have to straddle the toilet sometimes to get the door open or closed!

But I have a few of rules for myself:  If I've see someone at the venue on my way to the washroom that is obviously in need of that stall, I won't use it, just in case they are heading that way themselves.  If there is a line-up waiting and I'm at the front of the line when the handicapped stall opens, I have a quick look back in the line to check for anyone who obviously needs that stall and if so, offer to let them go in front of me.  And finally, if I'm going to be an inordinate amount of time, I'll use a regular stall.  I might change my clothes in the handicapped stall since it is bigger but if I also had to use the facilities, I'd do that after in a regular stall, unless I could definitely tell there was no one in the washroom.
I have CDO.  It is like OCD but with the letters in alphabetical order, as they should be.
Ontario

mrkitty

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 769
Re: Using the stall for disabled people
« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2012, 03:48:56 PM »
Outdoor Girl - exactly! You explained it better than I ever could. I think your approach to it is both reasonable and polite. I wish architects would make the female stalls of reasonable size to negotiate what we have to do in there. I, too, make sure that someone obviously in need of the ADA stall has first dibs on it. When it's available, though, and nobody else seems to need it at that moment, why not go ahead and use it?
Learn from past. Live in the present. Hope for the future.

Mental Magpie

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 5569
  • ...for the dark side looks back.
Re: Using the stall for disabled people
« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2012, 07:22:21 PM »
I'll ask again, who gets to decide how long is appropriate?  IBS can put me in stall for well over 15 minutes.  If the handicapped one is the only one open and I'm about to explode, I'm going to use it.  Better the toilet than my pants.  I can't guarantee I will only be a few minutes or a much longer time; I don't know until I'm finished.

When there is a line, everyone gets to wait.  What if there was a handicapped person in there taking awhile and another handicapped person was waiting?  Nothing rude there.  The amount of time spent in the stall is irrelevant; no one can control that.
The problem with choosing the lesser of two evils is that you're still choosing evil.

rashea

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 9700
Re: Using the stall for disabled people
« Reply #65 on: April 13, 2012, 07:27:06 PM »
I'll ask again, who gets to decide how long is appropriate?  IBS can put me in stall for well over 15 minutes.  If the handicapped one is the only one open and I'm about to explode, I'm going to use it.  Better the toilet than my pants.  I can't guarantee I will only be a few minutes or a much longer time; I don't know until I'm finished.

When there is a line, everyone gets to wait.  What if there was a handicapped person in there taking awhile and another handicapped person was waiting?  Nothing rude there.  The amount of time spent in the stall is irrelevant; no one can control that.

If it's the only one open, of course you use it. I'm arguing against taking it when you know you're likely to be awhile and you have another choice. So if you really need to go, and there are two choices, why not take the one that leaves the HC stall that anyone can take.
"Manners change, principles don't. It's about treating people with consideration, respect and honesty." Peter Post

Vermont

Outdoor Girl

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 14225
Re: Using the stall for disabled people
« Reply #66 on: April 13, 2012, 07:27:41 PM »
DM, I too have IBS.  In a desperate situation, I will use whichever stall opens up first.  But if I have a choice and I think I might be an extended period of time, I'll take a regular stall, just in case.  There are so many more regular stalls than handicapped stalls, as a rule, that the wait for a regular stall will be shorter, even if I'm occupying one.  I would hate for a handicapped person to come in right after me and have an accident because I've taken so long.
I have CDO.  It is like OCD but with the letters in alphabetical order, as they should be.
Ontario

Mental Magpie

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 5569
  • ...for the dark side looks back.
Re: Using the stall for disabled people
« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2012, 07:34:28 PM »
I'll ask again, who gets to decide how long is appropriate?  IBS can put me in stall for well over 15 minutes.  If the handicapped one is the only one open and I'm about to explode, I'm going to use it.  Better the toilet than my pants.  I can't guarantee I will only be a few minutes or a much longer time; I don't know until I'm finished.

When there is a line, everyone gets to wait.  What if there was a handicapped person in there taking awhile and another handicapped person was waiting?  Nothing rude there.  The amount of time spent in the stall is irrelevant; no one can control that.

If it's the only one open, of course you use it. I'm arguing against taking it when you know you're likely to be awhile and you have another choice. So if you really need to go, and there are two choices, why not take the one that leaves the HC stall that anyone can take.

That's really the first time you've come out and said it; I wasn't getting that from any of your previous posts.

I always choose the non-handicapped over the handicapped if there is a choice, just in case someone does need the handicapped stall, but I'm not going to wait for a non-handicapped one to open up if the handicapped one is open.

DM, I too have IBS.  In a desperate situation, I will use whichever stall opens up first.  But if I have a choice and I think I might be an extended period of time, I'll take a regular stall, just in case.  There are so many more regular stalls than handicapped stalls, as a rule, that the wait for a regular stall will be shorter, even if I'm occupying one.  I would hate for a handicapped person to come in right after me and have an accident because I've taken so long.

I would, too. 
The problem with choosing the lesser of two evils is that you're still choosing evil.

rashea

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 9700
Re: Using the stall for disabled people
« Reply #68 on: April 13, 2012, 07:42:41 PM »
I'll ask again, who gets to decide how long is appropriate?  IBS can put me in stall for well over 15 minutes.  If the handicapped one is the only one open and I'm about to explode, I'm going to use it.  Better the toilet than my pants.  I can't guarantee I will only be a few minutes or a much longer time; I don't know until I'm finished.

When there is a line, everyone gets to wait.  What if there was a handicapped person in there taking awhile and another handicapped person was waiting?  Nothing rude there.  The amount of time spent in the stall is irrelevant; no one can control that.

If it's the only one open, of course you use it. I'm arguing against taking it when you know you're likely to be awhile and you have another choice. So if you really need to go, and there are two choices, why not take the one that leaves the HC stall that anyone can take.

That's really the first time you've come out and said it; I wasn't getting that from any of your previous posts.

I always choose the non-handicapped over the handicapped if there is a choice, just in case someone does need the handicapped stall, but I'm not going to wait for a non-handicapped one to open up if the handicapped one is open.

DM, I too have IBS.  In a desperate situation, I will use whichever stall opens up first.  But if I have a choice and I think I might be an extended period of time, I'll take a regular stall, just in case.  There are so many more regular stalls than handicapped stalls, as a rule, that the wait for a regular stall will be shorter, even if I'm occupying one.  I would hate for a handicapped person to come in right after me and have an accident because I've taken so long.

I would, too.

Ah, I thought I had been clear. I think maybe I need more tea today.
"Manners change, principles don't. It's about treating people with consideration, respect and honesty." Peter Post

Vermont

Minmom3

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2448
Re: Using the stall for disabled people
« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2012, 11:06:07 PM »

- Cut the thread tree -

On the other hand, when was the last time you waited more than 5 minutes to use a bathroom? Because that happens much more frequently if there is only one bathroom you can use.

Two jobs ago, it was horribly common to wait well over 5 minutes to use the facilities - good sized pet store, with pet hospital inside, ONE ladies stall for the entire thing.  It got ugly ALL the time.  To the point that women used the men's room all the time, and it made no difference, since both had locking doors.  At another location, I did frequently have to swap buildings to find an open and clean restroom, and I can't imagine what a person needing the handicapped facilities had to go through to find a working toilet they could use.

It has not been rare in my life to need to wait FAR longer than my bladder or gut was happy waiting, and the worst waits ever have been in my own home, where I have shared a bathroom with 3 daughters and 1 husband...  So, that 5 minute wait you spoke of happens a lot, even to non-handicapped folk.  At least, it happens in MY life a lot.  I feel for you though, it can be agonizing, I understand that well.
Mother to children and fuzz butts....

rashea

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 9700
Re: Using the stall for disabled people
« Reply #70 on: April 14, 2012, 09:49:09 AM »

- Cut the thread tree -

On the other hand, when was the last time you waited more than 5 minutes to use a bathroom? Because that happens much more frequently if there is only one bathroom you can use.

Two jobs ago, it was horribly common to wait well over 5 minutes to use the facilities - good sized pet store, with pet hospital inside, ONE ladies stall for the entire thing.  It got ugly ALL the time.  To the point that women used the men's room all the time, and it made no difference, since both had locking doors.  At another location, I did frequently have to swap buildings to find an open and clean restroom, and I can't imagine what a person needing the handicapped facilities had to go through to find a working toilet they could use.

It has not been rare in my life to need to wait FAR longer than my bladder or gut was happy waiting, and the worst waits ever have been in my own home, where I have shared a bathroom with 3 daughters and 1 husband...  So, that 5 minute wait you spoke of happens a lot, even to non-handicapped folk.  At least, it happens in MY life a lot.  I feel for you though, it can be agonizing, I understand that well.

I walk an odd line between disabled and not, depending on the day. I would say I experience waiting far more when I use my wheelchair. And I experience it for far longer when I do have to wait. I would say there are places and times I've waited 30 or more minutes. I also live a in rural area, where there just aren't the number of people to create waits for the normal stalls. So that may add to my feeling. If I can use a normal stall, I almost never have to wait at all.
"Manners change, principles don't. It's about treating people with consideration, respect and honesty." Peter Post

Vermont

Mental Magpie

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 5569
  • ...for the dark side looks back.
Re: Using the stall for disabled people
« Reply #71 on: April 14, 2012, 03:32:42 PM »
S'okay Rashea.  For all we know, I didn't read it very well.
The problem with choosing the lesser of two evils is that you're still choosing evil.

kherbert05

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 10470
    • Trees downed in my yard by Ike and the clean up
Re: Using the stall for disabled people
« Reply #72 on: April 14, 2012, 03:48:12 PM »
At one university I attended, the library building had originally had one ladies' room per floor, three regular stalls in each restroom. The building was built at a time when the new handicapped accessible requirements were known, but not yet law. So someone made a choice not to incorporate the new regulations, even though they would be law in a year. This was legal at the time.

When they had to alter the stalls to provide handicapped access a few years after the building was finished, they choose the easiest, cheapest way to do it. They combined two of the stalls and a part of the third into one, to make one regulation-sized handicapped accessible stall. The remaining regular stall? It looked normal on the outside, but one wall angled backwards into the stall, to give enough room in the handicapped stall. The rear of the stall was only a couple of inches wider than the toilet itself. They hadn't wanted to have to move any of the plumbing lines, so they kept the footprint of the old toilets and just moved the stall walls around them.

Everyone used the handicapped stall. It was the only one people could get into and turn around in. And if you had a winter coat and a backpack full of books, you and your belongings could not fit in the stall.

Massive case of repeated bad decisions.


When my school was renovated the 2 stall faculty bathrooms were turned into singles. They could have technically kept them 2 stalls. The architect and the contractor did a mock up for the staff. The vote to go with singles was unanimous.
Don't Teach Them For Your Past. Teach Them For Their Future

JoW

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 944
Re: Using the stall for disabled people
« Reply #73 on: April 15, 2012, 10:35:02 AM »
I recently learned that a woman I work with uses the handicapped stall whenever possible because she thinks its used less often so it is cleaner.  I consider that unacceptable. 

I'm like most of the people on this thread.  I only use the handicapped stall when its the only one available and there are no obviously handicapped people nearby. 

Mental Magpie

  • Super Hero!
  • ****
  • Posts: 5569
  • ...for the dark side looks back.
Re: Using the stall for disabled people
« Reply #74 on: April 15, 2012, 11:36:29 AM »
I recently learned that a woman I work with uses the handicapped stall whenever possible because she thinks its used less often so it is cleaner.  I consider that unacceptable. 

I'm like most of the people on this thread.  I only use the handicapped stall when its the only one available and there are no obviously handicapped people nearby.

Tell her to look at studies: the stall closest to the door is usually the cleanest because people, seeking privacy, usually go away from the door.
The problem with choosing the lesser of two evils is that you're still choosing evil.