You hate me so...no. (long)

[Fluffy Cat]

Honestly, it was probably just feeding the drama.

You and he both have behaved badly in the past. You make a particular note that you were especially pointed and cruel in your insults towards him. Not saying that this excuses him, but I bet he has a lot of memories of that time that make him very angry and that's not all his fault. So, while you attempt to paint him as a bad guy in this, I can only see what made him get to this point, and a lot of that has to do with your own behavior. Yes, he should be acting more maturely. I'm not sure how he was insulting you when you were telling the story - was he insulting you or mentioning past behavior you'd rather forget? My point is, I guess, YOU helped establish this as your relationship patern with him - insults and all. Now YOU want to call the shots and say "enough." Well, he's not ready to let go of his anger yet. 

Either be civil to him or cut him out of your life. Don't continue this tit-for-tat behavior. That's not going to help anything.

He may hate you, but it is definitely not without reason IMO. YMMV.

I completely agree.

[Fleur-de-Lis]

Honestly, it was probably just feeding the drama.

You and he both have behaved badly in the past. You make a particular note that you were especially pointed and cruel in your insults towards him. Not saying that this excuses him, but I bet he has a lot of memories of that time that make him very angry and that's not all his fault. So, while you attempt to paint him as a bad guy in this, I can only see what made him get to this point, and a lot of that has to do with your own behavior. Yes, he should be acting more maturely. I'm not sure how he was insulting you when you were telling the story - was he insulting you or mentioning past behavior you'd rather forget? My point is, I guess, YOU helped establish this as your relationship patern with him - insults and all. Now YOU want to call the shots and say "enough." Well, he's not ready to let go of his anger yet. 

Either be civil to him or cut him out of your life. Don't continue this tit-for-tat behavior. That's not going to help anything.

He may hate you, but it is definitely not without reason IMO. YMMV.

Maybe not, but the bully "seemed to agree".  He doesn't get to "seem to agree" then insult Tallone behind Tallone's back, then expect Tallone's girlfriend to give him a ride for the express purpose of letting bully drink.  (Particularly given that it was in front of girlfriend that bully insulted Tallone, after theoretically accepting a pax.)

[TurtleDove]

I agree with PeasNCues and FluffyCat.

[Hushabye]

Honestly, it was probably just feeding the drama.

You and he both have behaved badly in the past. You make a particular note that you were especially pointed and cruel in your insults towards him. Not saying that this excuses him, but I bet he has a lot of memories of that time that make him very angry and that's not all his fault. So, while you attempt to paint him as a bad guy in this, I can only see what made him get to this point, and a lot of that has to do with your own behavior. Yes, he should be acting more maturely. I'm not sure how he was insulting you when you were telling the story - was he insulting you or mentioning past behavior you'd rather forget? My point is, I guess, YOU helped establish this as your relationship patern with him - insults and all. Now YOU want to call the shots and say "enough." Well, he's not ready to let go of his anger yet. 

Either be civil to him or cut him out of your life. Don't continue this tit-for-tat behavior. That's not going to help anything.

He may hate you, but it is definitely not without reason IMO. YMMV.

Maybe not, but the bully "seemed to agree".  He doesn't get to "seem to agree" then insult Tallone behind Tallone's back, then expect Tallone's girlfriend to give him a ride for the express purpose of letting bully drink.  (Particularly given that it was in front of girlfriend that bully insulted Tallone, after theoretically accepting a pax.)

I think that "seemed to agree" is a pretty vague statement.  He may not have actually agreed at all.  Now, interrupting the conversation at his end of the table to insult TallOne is lame and immature, not to mention rude to his conversation partners, but he's also been treated pretty horribly by TallOne in the past.

Now, TallOne had the opportunity to be up front and say, "She heard what you were saying; she's offended; she's not giving you a ride."  Instead, he just dropped himself right back into the nastiness.  Why do that?  Either fish or cut bait with the guy -- cut him or deal with his behavior in a mature manner.

[PeasNCues]

Maybe not, but the bully "seemed to agree".  He doesn't get to "seem to agree" then insult Tallone behind Tallone's back, then expect Tallone's girlfriend to give him a ride for the express purpose of letting bully drink.  (Particularly given that it was in front of girlfriend that bully insulted Tallone, after theoretically accepting a pax.)

I guess that all depends on what "seems to agree" means and what the insults were. I had read the "olive branch" follow up to mean that tallone had offered that before. If the "bully" had felt pressured to accept and then decided he wasn't ready, I understand that. I don't excuse it, but I understand it. As I said, "bully" behaved badly, but tallone is the one that established this with him.

And he's "the bully"? How about tallone bullied him as well - and, by tallone's own words, tallone was much better at it. So, if he's the bully, he's also the victim. Tallone is not the shining knight here, he's part of the problem and not handling this maturally.

ETA: If tallone wants to maintain this relationship and heal it, he needs to focus on making amends for his past behavior, not dolling out judgement and punishment for behavior that he, up until a short time ago, exhibited. I an NOT SAYING that P doesn't need to check his own behavior as well, but tallone can't control that - he can only control his own behavior, actions and intentions.

[vTenebrae]

That the OP brags about how good he was at insulting "P" really speaks volumes about his attitude, in general.  He goes on to brag about how his "Hot" girlfriend lavishes him with praise regularly and "P"'s insults are deemed insignificant.

If I can get a feeling of a smug sense of superiority... I'm pretty sure "P" can too.

A better approach would have been to tell "P" exactly what happened and tell him that you wouldn't be comfortable giving him a ride.  It would have put him on notice that his behaviour has been observed and does have consequences and made your actions more understandable.  You say you're trying to be the better person, you had the option to show it. Instead you chose to continue on the "mean boy" behaviour.

Oh and to those calling "P" a bully? "P" was childish and a boor, but he wasn't bullying by a longshot. A bully is nasty to someone's face and deliberately tries to embarrass someone or make them feel bad... which is what the OP did. 

[sammycat]

No one is obliged to do a favour for anyone else, particularly when the person asking the favour was publicly badmouthing the other person just a short while before.

I would not have given P a ride.

[tallone]

Weeeelll. This thread has certainly given me a lot to think about. While I am perhaps not inclined to agree with all assessments of my character/behaviour I have in principle agreed with some already, and what I don't disagree with entirely is at least useful as an eye opener.

I would like to defend myself in one instance with regards to my references to my size or Tallfiancee's hotness. (Please note: she's not tall at all. That part is just to link her to my own screen name and make fun of her tiny stature. Also, her idea). To me Tallfiancee is very attractive. Other people agree or disagree to varying degrees.

It is mostly tongue in cheek when I say thing like "devastatingly attractive", I'm not in a relationship with a supermodel just trying to be funny. However, if I incorporate her wit, charm and intelligence into the equation I would absolutely classify her as "devastatingly attractive". I am very happy with the woman I'm with. Not just her looks, her as a person. She also reads this forum and I enjoy leaving her a compliment or two while she's getting her eHell fix.

In regards to me? Smug and superior? Well, yes. I would hope that recognising those traits is a sign of maturity - I would also hope that doesn't make me sound even more smug. I have good luck in life. I respect that and enjoy it. In the grand scheme of things I have little to complain about and see little reason to do so. Nearly everything I've thought a problem or didn't like about my life as a child has been changed/fixed for the better since I became an adult - I revel in that fact.

One of the big things was going from short and skinny to tall and fit - I was less than ecstatic with my body and now I am proud of it. Should anyone who undertakes drastic weight loss from obesity to a healthier body be quiet about it because they appear smug and superior? I do not think so and I would argue my own situation is the flip side of the coin. I also enjoy being tall over being short although that is not related to health issues such as weight and obviously not another side of the weight loss/weight gain coin. I am happy to dial it down anyway in this case - just to be sure.

 I accept that bragging is uncouth and so while I see little reason to act humble I do take steps not to overstate my good fortune. It would appear that has failed to a degree and slipped out as an air of superiority and smugness. I'll do my best to address that in future as I agree it makes for poor company if I appear to think I am better than most because I am happy.

Assessments of my character flaws aside -Which I do not believe are the domain of this forum? However,  poor etiqutte/manners being a character flaw  yes and no perhaps?

Oh and to those calling "P" a bully? "P" was childish and a boor, but he wasn't bullying by a longshot. A bully is nasty to someone's face and deliberately tries to embarrass someone or make them feel bad... which is what the OP did.

This in particular jumped out at me. I do not believe that insulting and belittling someone behind their back is not bullying. I do not agree that I was deliberately nasty to P in the above post. I refused a favour, more accurately I refused a favour in Tallfiancee's behalf as I knew her feelings on the matter would be far more vehement. P spent a significant amount of time putting me down within earshort of myself and those close to me. I would argue that constitutes "nasty to someone's face and deliberately tries to embarrass someone or make them feel bad" better than when I refused to give P a lift.

And yes, perhaps I opened a can of worms on myself by admitting that I was horrible to P in the past. I was. While generally I would welcome debate on the subject the more relevant issue, and central thrust of my post, is whether it is rude to expect a favour from someone you have just been publicly insulting and/or is it rude to reject a favour to someone because you don't like them or their behaviour, guilty conscience or no?

I included details of my poor history with P in order to get that guilty conscience aspect. I would be interested to know if etiquette changes depending on the emotional history between two people. I assume, however, that since "no" is a complete sentence that we can always refuse a favour for no reason other than we don't want to give that favour to the person in question.

[PeasNCues]

My opinion stands. You are approaching this completely the wrong way - with a sense of superiority and judgement instead of contrition and honesty about your past behavior.

And no, I do not think this guy is bullying you.

[blueberry.muffin]

*snippity snip*

Reduced quote to note that I am responding to what you said above without trying to add huge long lines of text for others to scroll through.

With regards to the entire situation, I don't know what you're asking for. If you want validation that you don't have to give P a ride, but that you weren't rude to him, then I think most posters on this thread have agreed that you went about things the right way.

If you want validation of your own personality... that's not something this forum is equipped for. That's something you yourself, and perhaps your fiancée, should analyze, not us. We don't know you, only your words, and while our words give hints as to who we are, it's nowhere near enough that we here on an etiquette forum can help with. (I'd be unrecognizable - I'm a lot more forward here than in real life. Yay, anonymity.)

[vTenebrae]

Should anyone who undertakes drastic weight loss from obesity to a healthier body be quiet about it because they appear smug and superior? I do not think so and I would argue my own situation is the flip side of the coin.

So if you improve yourself, it's a great idea to become a smug & superior about it? 

When I was in the Navy I got myself in fantastic shape.  I was thrilled about it.  I dressed the part.  I felt wonderful and I looked great.  I didn't brag about it and I certainly didn't become arrogant about the fact.  I exuded confidence...

Confidence is a far cry from conceit.  Guess which face you're displaying..

Do you continue to justify your behaviour in hopes that someone here will pat you on the back for being so much more awesome than P and thus, not beholden to typical displays of common courtesy or decency?

No, you didn't have to give him a ride.  However "I'm better than him" attitude sucks.  Your entire post could have been summed up as "Someone with whom I have an acrimonious relationship was bad mouthing me within earshot of my fiancee.  Not long after, he realised he needed a ride and only I could provide it.  I made him reap what he sowed and refused to give that boor a ride.  Rudeness does have consequences".  However, you decided to make sure all of us knew that you're far better than he for SOO many reasons.

It grates.  I'm merely saying this so that, perhaps, you can make some adjustments and you will actually BE the better person in the future.

[LadyL]

 I am a little bit baffled that a thread from three weeks ago has been revived almost solely for the purpose of criticizing the OP. It gives the impression that posters are digging through the archives to find something to be upset about.

It is one thing to say "Your attitude towards P may be more obvious in person than you may think, based on the tone of your thread." It's another to call the OP smug, superior, conceited, arrogant, etc.

 Personally I read his writing style as a little bombastic  - it reminds me of newspaper columns where the authors base scenarios on their life but exaggerate for comical or literary effect. I had actually posted on the Announcements board about whether it is appropriate to criticize a poster's style and the response seemed to range from "Yes, if you do so tactfully" to "No, it's up to the mods." It's located here: http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?topic=99312.0.

I think there are more tactful ways to point out problematic elements of Tallone's posting style and approach to the situation at hand.

[PeasNCues]

LadyL - your initial paragraph is an interesting accusation, but no. 

I think it is a matter of pointing out how he is coming off in the OP and why. You found it harsh, which it can be, but I found his assessment of P and his behavior harsh and felt the need to point it out since he seemed to be looking for validation of his behavior.

[Hushabye]

LadyL, this thread has been posted in fairly continuously for this folder for those past three weeks.  In fact, the most recent post before yesterday's was from August 10th, six days prior.  I hardly think that that digging through the archives.  It would have been the second post on the list in this folder, since the third one down was last posted in on August 8th.

And I think there's a difference between criticizing a poster's writing style and pointing out how a poster's attitude comes across in writing.  It would be one thing to say, "Your descriptive phrases are too flowery and your use of ellipses is excessive" and another thing entirely to say, "You come across as excessively smug and arrogant in the way you describe yourself and the situation."

[LadyL]

LadyL - your initial paragraph is an interesting accusation, but no. 

I realize that came off a bit harsh - what I mean is, I'm surprised that no one noticed or objected to Tallone's posting style when it was initially posted, only weeks after the fact.