Close

No Means No, Guys… And Gals

Lately I’ve been seeing a lot of conversations about how men treat women and two stories keep coming to mind. While neither of these incidents felt like harassment and I didn’t feel unsafe, both made me feel like these men felt completely entitled to my time and attention.

I was nineteen and working in a twenty hour convenience store in my small hometown while on my summer break from university.

One afternoon, a regular came in to pay for a tank of gas. He was my dad’s age. He was crying and I asked if I could help. A friend of his had died. I offered condolences and told him that his coffee was on us.

He came in a few nights later when I was working the graveyard shift. I was making deli sandwiches for the next day and he asked if he could buy one and hang out for a bit. Umm, sure. Ok. I kept working and he kept eating. He ate three foot long subs and stayed and talked for a couple of hours. I figured he needed someone to listen so I worked and listened.

He came back a couple of nights later and did the same thing. He paid for the sandwiches he ate and listening to him didn’t slow me down at all.  Then he came back a third time. Hmmmm. I began to mention my boyfriend. A lot.  This guy came back a few more times and I started to say things like “yeah my dad likes that music/tv show too” just to subtly remind him that he was a lot older than me.

After a couple weeks of this, he asked if he could take me out for dinner. I said no, that I wasn’t comfortable with that. He argued that it would just be as friends and I repeated that I didn’t want to.
His parting words?   “Yeah well I hope your boyfriend is the kind of man who gives you at least two orgasms before he’s done.” He shouted that across the store and in front of other customers. Then he called the store to give me one last chance to reconsider.

The second story took place a few years later. I was working in a cell phone store and we had to run credit checks for anyone who wanted to sign a contract.  A man came in and his first words to me were “I just went bankrupt from an ugly divorce, how much will my deposit be for a new plan?”  I offered to check and, when he presented his driver’s license, I mentioned that he was born in the same year as my dad.

His bankruptcy hadn’t posted with the credit bureaus yet and he didn’t need to pay a security deposit. So, we selected a plan and a phone for him.  As I began setting up his account, he told me about his divorce. Then he asked to take me out for coffee. I replied that I didn’t date customers. He turned to my co worker and asked if he could set up the account instead so that the two of us could have coffee.
I said that I still wasn’t interested and kept working on his account.

He proceeded to tell me why dating him would be a great idea and I politely and firmly kept declining. (My co worker was with another customer and I just wanted this guy processed quickly and gone. Our manager would have been furious if I’d have turned away a sale.) I finished his account quickly and handed him his phone.

He helped himself to one of my business cards (we all had ours in a stand in the counter) and asked when I worked next. I wished him a nice day and turned away to help the next customer. He responded by promising to call our store every day until I said yes.

As he was leaving the store, he called out that he’d call the next day and that saying yes to him would be “the best thing you’d ever do in your life”.

He did call. And I politely explained that any further calls would result in a call back . . . from our corporate security department.

I’m in my late thirties now and this doesn’t happen nearly as often to me now as it used to. But I see some of my younger friends having to deal with this and it’s frustrating. No means no, guys. 0129-18

The OP of the above story is clearly communicating “No” to these men early in the conversation and consistently.   There is no ambiguity as to what she is saying and it is incumbent upon the men to honor that clearly stated message.

Contrast this to another story that hit the news media about the same time this story above was submitted. It was regarding the alleged sexual harassment of a young woman named “Grace” by actor Aziz Ansari.

In a 3,000 word report published on a feminist blog, “Grace” recounts, in detail, her date with the Emmy award winning actor which she describes as “the worst night of my life”.   Grace and Ansari meet at a 2017 Emmys after party, exchange phone numbers, he calls her to arrange a dinner date which they have.  After dinner they retire back to his apartment where things get frisky enough that they are now both naked and he obviously wants to move forward into penetrative intercourse.   It is only when he suggests sex in front of a mirror that Grace FINALLY uses the word “No”.   Ansari promptly backs off, suggests they get their clothes back on and they watch an episode of Seinfield after which he calls a taxi for her.   The next day he sends her a complimentary text to which she replies that last night may have been fun for him but it was a disaster for her. Ansari apologizes.

Bari Weiss of the New York Times wrote a fiery response to the article in a piece titled “Aziz Ansari Is Guilty. Of Not Being a Mind Reader.”  (The link to the original story is embedded in this article, btw.)  Excerpts below…

If you are wondering what about this evening constituted the “worst night” of this woman’s life, or why it is being framed as a #MeToo story by a feminist website, you probably feel as confused as Mr. Ansari did the next day. “It was fun meeting you last night,” he texted.

“Last night might’ve been fun for you, but it wasn’t for me,” she responded. “You ignored clear nonverbal cues; you kept going with advances. You had to have noticed I was uncomfortable.” He replied with an apology.

Read her text message again.

Put in other words: I am angry that you weren’t able to read my mind.

It is worth carefully studying this story. Encoded in it are new yet deeply retrograde ideas about what constitutes consent — and what constitutes sexual violence.

We are told by the reporter that the woman “says she used verbal and nonverbal cues to indicate how uncomfortable and distressed she was.”

Weiss concludes her article citing examples of clear communication regarding consent that would have had no occasion to be misunderstood:

I am a proud feminist, and this is what I thought while reading the article:

If you are hanging out naked with a man, it’s safe to assume he is going to try to have sex with you.

If the failure to choose a pinot noir over a pinot grigio offends you, you can leave right then and there.

If you don’t like the way your date hustles through paying the check, you can say, “I’ve had a lovely evening and I’m going home now.”

If you go home with him and discover he’s a terrible kisser, say, “I’m out.”

If you start to hook up and don’t like the way he smells or the way he talks (or doesn’t talk), end it.

If he pressures you to do something you don’t want to do, use a four-letter word, stand up on your two legs and walk out his door.

The solution to these problems does not begin with women torching men for failing to understand their “nonverbal cues.” It is for women to be more verbal. It’s to say, “This is what turns me on.” It’s to say, “I don’t want to do that.” And, yes, sometimes it means saying goodbye.

Getting Out Of A Bad Dating Situation (or How Etiquette Is Empowering)

I recently went on a date that left me feeling, for lack of a better word, icky.

My date with, let’s call him Jeff, was arranged by a friend. Jeff was an old buddy of her husband’s and had recently moved back into town. We texted back and forth and he seemed nice and polite, and we agreed to meet for a drink at a pub I know rather well. The date was for late in the evening as I had a work commitment and agreed to meet him afterward.

Jeff was already seated when I arrived. We ordered our drinks, and chatted while waiting for them to arrive. The conversation was odd, I’m not even sure how to describe it, but it was more like talking to a nervous fourteen year old than a man in his late thirties. I attributed it to first date jitters. He suggested a few times that we order some “entrees”, and I thought that a lot of food for so late in the evening. I eventually realized that he meant “appetizers”. I opted to stick with just a drink. He also suggested, several times, that we could go back to his place for a drink instead. Again, I declined.

When the waitress arrived with our drinks I removed my jacket to get more comfortable. Jeff very blatantly stared at my chest and said “WOW!” Now, I was not wearing anything revealing, and there was no reason (and there never should be) to make such a proclamation. I quickly pulled my jacket back on, told him that he had just made me very uncomfortable, and said a hasty good-night.

A younger me may have stuck around and finished my drink for fear of seeming impolite. I have learned that you do not need to keep yourself in an uncomfortable situation because of etiquette, and it is quite possible to exit such a situation gracefully. 0421-17

Eww!  Icky is right!  I think you handled it perfectly and I love that you had a polite but steely spine to take action promptly.   But I disagree that etiquette requires a person to remain in an uncomfortable situation out of some perceived need to be polite.  Etiquette is empowering because it is based on standards of behavior that gives freedom to remove ourselves from awkward, uncomfortable or dangerous situations while doing so with power and grace.   Sitting there in misery throughout the remainder of the date or reacting with drama (“You pervert!”, said screamingly) would have not been empowering etiquette.

No Invitation To This Family Dinner

This happened to me a number of years ago, but I still wonder if there was a breach of etiquette, or if I was just overly sensitive at the time.

When I was thirty, I joined an internet dating site and met a young man online called “Jack”. Jack was only 25, but he and I clicked almost immediately and began corresponding. He lived in a city on the other side of the country, but after about two months we decided that, as things were progressing well, it would be good to meet in person. For various reasons, it made more sense for me to visit him, rather than vice versa, so I booked a ticket to visit for five days. I was staying with a friend in that city, and planned to spend one day solely with her, but the understanding was that if things were going well, Jack and I would spend the majority of the remaining four days together.

Although Jack and I felt we might be a good match, his family (especially his father) did not agree, which was an issue as he lived at home with his sister and parents. Firstly, they did not approve of the five year age gap, or the fact that I “needed” to use the internet to find a boyfriend. (Of course, the same might be said of Jack, but they did not see it that way!) At the time, I was working full time as a teacher assistant while doing some postgraduate study: although my salary was sufficient for me, I made much less than Jack did as a nurse at a private hospital, which also concerned his parents. Thirdly, I am vegetarian and Jack was not – another point of concern. Finally, it was suggested that I was not very “athletic”. This confused me initially: while it is true that I do not enjoy team sports, and am not good at them, I do enjoy active pursuits such as cycling, swimming, multi-day hikes and fun runs. It eventually became clear that “athletic” was a euphemism for “attractive” and I can’t dispute that. I’m afraid that I am quite average – neither ugly nor beautiful – in the looks department.

Despite this opposition, Jack met me at the airport and after the expected nervousness, we found that we got on very well indeed. That afternoon, however, his father called and told Jack that he was expected home that evening for family dinner, which meant Jack, his parents, his sister and his sister’s boyfriend. I was not invited. I could tell that Jack felt uncomfortable at having to relay this, but he did not want to upset his parents. So he dropped me back at my friend’s place and went home as instructed. Assuming I would be busy, my friend had already gone out, so I spent a lonely evening.

Was it rude of his father not to invite me to dinner? Was it rude of Jack to take me back to my accommodation early and leave me there? Or was it a perfectly reasonable thing to do?

(For the record, Jack’s family did invite me over to dinner a few nights later, and went to the trouble of making a vegetarian dish specifically for me, but sadly they continued to disapprove of me. After offering to help with dinner, for example, and being told that no help was needed, I took my hosts at their word; but apparently I should have made a second offer, as my failure to help was considered rude. Perhaps it was. In any case, the relationship ended a few months later, largely in part to the family’s disapproval.) 0126-14

Jack was not ready for a committed relationship as evidenced by his still living at home and that he could meekly acquiesce to a summons to appear for family dinner.  He was not yet an independent man but was subordinate to his father.

Friend Zones

Last year I started to to reacquaint myself with an old colleague (lets call him Nathan) after seeing some rather depressing statuses on his Facebook account. Rather than let them go unnoticed like so many people do I had messaged him and let him know that if he did ever wish to talk then I was available. We had gotten on very well when we worked together so it didn’t feel odd or strange at all to offer my support.

We started to go for coffees semi regularly, every month or so where we would just chat about all sorts, essentially just two friends hanging out, where I would ask how his relationship was going as he’d often said he was having difficulties. Eventually I found out that his girlfriend had called things off. Nathan seemed to take it well and we continued to see each other for coffees.

I’ll admit that every now and then I felt an inkling that he might have become attracted to me, but put this down to the fact that I was a rare female figure in his life who was happy to spend time with him. He started to ask me to go for coffees more regularly or to go over to his house to watch movies. I was determined to nip this in the bud and always politely declined, and whenever the subject of relationships came up I would always comment that it was something I’d not even contemplated for quite a while and that I was very happy being single.

Alarm bells really should have started ringing when I mentioned how much fun he would have at a theme park in Orlando as I now he was a fan of comic books and rides, he jokingly said we should go together and I smiled and carried on talking about the other attractions the park had to offer.

Cut to three weeks later and he texts me to let me know his visa has been approved for travel to the US. I am, understandably, quite shocked as I don’t actually recall finalising any agreement to actually plan a holiday together. I then had the unpleasant honour of advising him that we would not be going to America as I had already planned out the next several holidays with other friends.

Nathan takes this in stride as he is suddenly overcome with helping to plan a mutual friend’s wedding (again, both bride and groom were people we used to work with and have been on friendly terms for a while).

I hear all about the plans on the run up and then suddenly three days before the wedding I get an email from Nathan asking if I would be able to go as his plus one as his other friend had let him down. I am a little taken aback by the last minute nature of this request and only agree with the express permission of the groom in lieu of an actual invitation.

I spend the next three days worrying about what to wear and finding a gift etc. The day before I’m still not sure exactly what the plan is as Nathan is one of the ushers and I understand he will be busy in the morning helping the groom get ready. Nathan texts me to say he would pick me up in the morning as I was joining him with the groom and ushers and we would all walk to the church together, (I put my foot down at going along to the Groom’s breakfast).

Cue a very awkward morning as I attempt conversation with the grooms grandmother and relatives whilst the boys get ready and they’re no doubt wondering who this strange girl in their living room was. There were no other ‘plus ones’ there and I found out pretty quickly that none of the other ushers had actually invited anyone as their dates so I’m now a little on edge as to why Nathan made this out to be such an emergency on his part.

The day went off without a hitch, everyone was lovely and kind and despite not knowing many people there and Nathan always being called away to fulfil his usher duties I had a wonderful time and congratulated the parents of bride and groom on such a lovely couple.

But then the evening winds down and the slow songs start to play and Nathan keeps asking me to dance which I keep declining (I should probably say at this point that I have a disability that requires me to walk with a stick and braces, being on my feet all day has naturally left me quite exhausted). I finally relent uncomfortably when he and his friends all start cajoling me so I agree to one dance which is intensely awkward to me as I become increasingly aware that this entire charade has been some sort of attempt at seduction, which I concede might been seen as romantic by someone who actually had interest in the other party.

We break away as the song finishes and the bride and groom announce their departure so I take the chance to congratulate them and thank them again for the last minute invite and that I’ve had a lovely day and wish them well in their marriage. They start to make conversation about Nathan, saying that they were lucky to have his help throughout the planning process and I agree, stating that he is a genuinely nice guy, to which both bride and groom start telling me that I should ‘remember that’. I ask what they mean by that and they reply that I ‘know what they’re talking about, he’s really gone out of his way to make sure you have a nice day, it’s only right you show him you’re grateful’.

The implication was clear. I was pretty horrified that these people who I thought were my friends were quite happy to insinuate that I offer myself in return for ‘a date’.

‘A date’ that I had agreed to as a favour for a friend who I thought was in real need.

Needless to say I excused myself quietly not long afterwards, completely unsure of what to say as I said goodbye to Nathan.

He continued to text me after that day for more increasingly ‘date like’ endeavors (Movies, dinner, picnics in the park etc) all of which I declined until one day I finally had enough and casually mentioned that I had started seeing someone at work.

Nathan has not text me since, and worse than that all mutual friends that have contact with him have deleted me from social media, including bride and groom.

From what I understand now I have done the unthinkable by ‘friendzoning’ him, although to my knowledge I had never lead him on, had never implied that we were anything more than friends. But it seems that by agreeing to attend the wedding of a mutual friend at short notice was enough to ‘seal the deal’. I’m quite upset that by trying to be a good friend to someone I have gone on to lose friends. I’m also very upset that I’ve been thought of as someone that should happily ‘put out’ just because someone shows an interest/makes an effort to be nice to me, to the point where I’ve even received comments about how I should have ‘just gone out with him, it’s only fair’.

I’m not certain what I could have done to make it clearer to him that I was not interested in pursuing a relationship.  1029-14

Update To A Previous Post (He Never Had Her Back)

Quite some time ago  I submitted a story to you (titled “I‘ve got your back against the ‘A’s’ in your life” on your blog) about some trouble I had with a friend of my, at the time, boyfriend.  The story received, to my surprise, quite some feedback, and it felt great to know I had so much support in a matter that made me rather insecure. At the time quite some people gave me the advice to break up with my boyfriend, as he was steadily proving to be rather spineless. I decided to continue the relationship, however…which brings us to this update.

In the half year (or thereabouts) since my last post we had quite some ups and downs, and for the past month or so I had begun to doubt our relationship. Having voiced my worries to my friends and thinking things over for some time, I decided that the best course of action would be to split up, since I was getting to be rather unhappy and felt trapped in a course towards a future that I did not feel comfortable with. As it turns out, my boyfriend had been having the same doubts, and we split on amiable terms, agreeing to remain friends. So, the breakup itself, while of course sad, went about as well as a breakup could possibly go – it’s what came afterwards that took the proverbial cake.

A scant thirty minutes after officially breaking up with me, exbf happily informed me of his plans, now that we had broken up, as he had apparently been working on something of a list of future conquests and was quite eager to get working on it. (I was reassured that he would “take it easy”, however, since he wasn’t feeling entirely up for it just yet; oh joy of joys). In the heat of the moment I didn’t quite know what to say, other than a lightly strangled, “Oh – okay”. I felt like he was already working on replacing me before I was good and well out the door. It was then that he also decided to inform me that in the weekend before (this conversation took place on a Monday) he had been getting on quite well with a female mutual acquaintance of ours – to the point that they ultimately had to take a moment apart when they remembered that he was still quite taken, and they didn’t want to cross any barriers. Of course everyone makes mistakes every now and then, it was a party, there was quite some drinking involved, our relationship wasn’t going very well and they did call it’s quits before things went too far – but to wait until after the breakup to tell me this tidbit of information I thought was rather cowardly. And then came the kicker: “Well, since we’ve broken up now, I think I might contact her again sometime soon”.

It didn’t really register with me until I was well on my way home, but I was glad when it did that I had some lovely roommates waiting for me at home with tea, blankets and an enormous pile of tissues.

About a week later I’m still not sure whether exbf actually does not realize that some things might better be left unsaid or if he is really so much of a villain as to willingly step on my heart like that, and to be completely honest I’m not sure whether to confront him with the fact that he really hurt me; in my mind, since I didn’t really get angry during the moment supreme, I don’t really have the right to get angry now. Ultimately, though, I think I want most of all to leave the whole thing behind me- so much for continuing on as friends but then when has this ever truly worked out for anyone?   1118-16

Do you not realize why exbf said what he did?   Even if this was an amicable break up, it’s obvious exbf has issues with self esteem.  The sub text of what he said is,”I have value and someone else wants me even if you don’t.”   He was informing you in the most bungling and obvious way possible that he’s insecure and he wants it known that at least one person finds him attractive.   I would be inclined to believe he embellished the story to make him sound really irresistible to women.

And his lack of discretion shouldn’t come as a surprise.  As the original post noted, your exbf had a significant problem with being discrete.   Good riddance!