I had to write in and tell you about yet another story because in a way I promised someone that I would. Read on and you’ll see 🙂
I put myself through university and attended full time classes while working. This meant that I had to study whenever I could. Just before winter exams, I was cramming for a final in a campus coffee shop. I was sitting on a couch and this cute guy asked if he could join me because all of the tables were full. I nodded and went back to studying. And he began talking. And talking. Finally I politely told him that I had an exam in about an hour and still needed to review some things for it. He promised to be quiet if I would agree to go for dinner with him the next night. I agreed. He kept talking. Finally I had to head to my class and he insisted on walking me and stood right outside the open door and announced that we would have a great date. By this time the entire room had settled and most people in the back heard him. Embarrassing!
I wrote the exam and headed home. I wasn’t in the door for five minutes when he called to see if I wanted to go grab a quick coffee. I wasn’t busy and so I agreed. My grandmother had also died a week earlier and I was devastated and needed a distraction because I couldn’t afford to fly home for her funeral. So we went for coffee and I’ve never been out with a man who talked so much about his appearance. At one point he asked me what I thought he was. I was confused by what he meant until he clarified that he wanted me to guess his ethnic background. He lit up like a child at Christmas when he told me that he’s Lebanese and Irish and that’s why his skin looks so tanned but his eyes are so blue. And his teeth! Did I notice how white his teeth were? Then he made me touch his arm because holy cow was his skin soft! I chalked his self promoting up to nerves. I’m 5’3 and he was a little shorter than me. I figured that he was nervous and really wanted to sell himself.
About an hour after our coffee date he called again and asked if he could cook me dinner that night. I wanted to figure him out and so I went over. His place was decorated with some interesting things and he asked if I wanted to “see something cool”. Then he flexed. And then rolled up his jeans to show me how defined his calves were. The bragging continued. He regaled me with tales of being in the top five in his program and of how he had once been a Calvin Klein underwear model. I don’t know if it was my majoring in psychology or a need for distraction or both but I still went for dinner the next night. He decided that it was finally time to talk about me this time. He successfully guessed my size, weight and bra size. Back then I was still recovering from an eating disorder and I hated that he knew that I was a size 8. I felt fat and disgusting and was mortified that he had just announced that and what I weighed.
I spent the next couple of weeks seeing him here and there because I wanted to give him a fair chance. One night it was colder than normal and I didn’t have a car. I was close to where he lived and a good hour’s walk from home so I called to see if he could pick me up. He replied that he was in sweats and didn’t like to leave the house when he didn’t look his best so no. He would not pick me up. I understood and we didn’t really talk again before Christmas break. Reading week arrived and who would walk into my coffee shop? He wanted to take me out again because he realized that he had been a jerk and he wanted to make it up to me. I refused and he badgered me until I gave in. We went to another coffee shop when I closed mine and he began to tell me about…a new girl he was trying to date. He told me about how tall she was, how tanned her skin was and how amazingly sexy she was. Apparently short women with fair skin looked “ill” to him and he had never found them (us) attractive. He told me about a diamond necklace that he had bought her because he just had to see its gold on her skin. He told me how rich her family was etc and then he dropped the bomb. He told me her weight and size including her bra size. As he said that last part he added that he liked that she wore a small B cup because anything over that was “gross”. At that point I reminded him that he had successfully guessed that I’m a C and I got up and left. He chased me outside and asked what he had done wrong. I replied that one day I was going to write a book about my bad dates and that he could read it then. He looked absolutely petrified and pleaded with me not to because it would ruin him. I kid you not.
Anyhow I never did write the book but I figure this still counts and I can say that I kept my promise to write about him 🙂 I’m happy to say that I’m very happily engaged to a wonderful man who thinks that I’m beautiful and tells me daily. 0619-11
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@STACE: I will gladly buy and donate those books to all the neighborhood children.
Leslie Holman-Anderson:
Probably no one said “stalker” because he didn’t fit the definition of the word. I applaud the other eHell folks for knowing what words mean before they use them.
From googling “definition:stalker”:
A person who stealthily hunts or pursues an animal or another person
A person who harasses or persecutes someone with unwanted and obsessive attention
She kept saying ‘yes’ to these dates and even admitted she saw him on and off because of the interesting psychology. He wasn’t stalking.
Fox and Lia: Thank you!
I clearly need to clarify a couple of things. I mentioned working a lot because I wanted to emphasize the point that I REALLY needed to study that day.
As for why I even went out with him, my grandmother had just died and I was beyond devastated. My entire family was across the country and I was pretty alone. I had a few casual friends but I didn’t know them well enough to openly grieve in front of them and so I welcomed the distraction even if it wasn’t a wise one. Clearly I still had a lot to learn at 20.
I did agree to go out that one last time for a laugh. I was curious about how he was going to apologize for and explain us both not calling each other. I had no idea that he was going to sing sonnets about a woman who was obviously the exact opposite of me. Previously he had just been vain and self centered and never mean so I saw him as a fascinating comic. I wanted to see if there was anything under the vanity and insecurity. That final meeting was the last straw though and once he crossed the line I walked off.
Most of us do foolish things when we’re young and I’m sure we all have that one guy who we should have cut loose and didn’t right away. This wasn’t to start a debate, I simply wanted to share a tale of very odd male behavior.
Rin – what would have creeped me out is his carnival “guess your height and weight” routine. It’s one thing to say, “you’re so lovely and slender,” it’s another to announce that “I can tell you weigh 117.5 pounds, have a BMI of 20.1, and take a bra size between C and D – must suck trying to get one to fit, right?” That’s just a little TOO much attention to intimate details, and the uncanny accuracy makes one think more of getting undressed for a medical exam than for any other purpose.
If this guy was flirting by guessing her weight and bra size, I would have had him next guess how fast I could run to the door.
I’ve been in situations where guys treated me poorly (not abusive, but like I wasn’t a priority) and I know it’s hard to learn that you deserve better than those jerks can provide.
You understood when he wouldn’t drive you home because he was wearing sweats? Really?
People will only treat you like that if you allow it. That also applies to aliens from Booron, bridezillas and monsters-in-law. This story is an excellent example of the usefulness of a polite spine.
DGS wrote: “Off topic, I do find myself put off by the relentless submissions that state, “I put myself through university, thus I was an attentive student who worked very hard …… The presumed notion that only those who have to pay for undergrad themselves work hard, while the rest of us “privileged” ones oafed about, always rubs me the wrong way.”
Now, DGS, on behalf of those who worked full-time while in school full-time, and who are also paying back loans, where on earth did you get the idea that this sweepingly implies that those who didn’t go that route are “privileged” and “oafing” about?
Really, you pulled that out of thin air. Have specific people said this to you before? If so, you really need to take it up with the person who said it, not with the rest of us who simply chose a different route than you. When people write about the circumstances under which they did college (self-financed or parent-financed), they are not attacking those who did differently (no more than you are insulting those without scholarships). They are simply setting the stage for their story.
Re: my off-topic comment. It was not only directed at the OP for this poster, but previous posters who usually start the post with “I put myself through college, thus working very hard, unlike other people who loafed around” and then, transition on to some other, more EtiquetteHell-relevant topic. My point was simply that while everyone gets kudos for working hard in my book, regardless of their circumstances, I dislike the presumption that a poster is the only one working hard, while others are simply partying around, etc., and also the speculation that those who party must automatically come from more fortunate circumstances (that may or may not be the case, as people’s maturity varies widely, especially in college). It would have been enough to say to set the stage, “I was studying for exams and working very hard when (insert EtiquetteHell relevant submission here)”.
OP, I gotta say it….you brought a lot of it on yourself. You were TOO nice to him. After you told him you needed peace and quiet to study, he should’ve left you alone. When he pestered you again, you should’ve gotten up and left. You were under no obligation to be nice to him. Just poliet.
Haha! I laugh at this guy. Everyone has different genetics. I’m part Russian, part English, with a bit of Chinese and born in Australia. It sounds exotic, but in reality I’m average height, average weight, average looks, and very very pale. Mr Creepazoid needs a reality check! One day he’ll say the wrong thing to the wrong person and there will be hell to pay.
@Leslie Holman-Anderson, I don’t see any stalking behavior here. He pushed the boundary a little by badgering her for another date, but she readily gave in. She never gave a clear, firm indication that she wanted to be left alone.
I think we need to teach young women that going out with someone who is this pushy and boastful, out of an urge to be Nice is not at all polite. Morbid fascination is not an honest response to this kind of bully. The only polite, not to mention safe or reasonable, response is to ignore them and avoid them. They get by on their fantasies because of women who just go along with it. Admittedly, it is a hard lesson, but if we taught this as basic etiquette, maybe a few would not have to go out with such creeps before realizing they’ve been had.
When he didn’t keep his end of the deal “He promised to be quiet if I would agree to go for dinner with him the next night.” But she went out with him even when he didn’t keep quiet. He knew he could get away with anything, and did. She was just very lucky he wasn’t dangerous, only annoying.
The weight thing that several people commented on reminds me of a story a friend of mine told me. She had always been an average size person–not overweight at all, not overly thin. She got Hodgkin’s lymphoma and, because of the treatment, had lost weight. She was at a public swimming pool in the restroom/changing area and a very overweight woman commented to her, “I wish I could be thin like you.” . She said she normally ignored comments like this, but for some reason, that day it got to her. She replied, “Well, I call it my cancer diet–chemo and radiation.” and walked out as the woman’s jaw dropped.
I am overweight and was losing weight (purposely) and about the same time, my female pattern hair loss started becoming noticable. No one said anything to me, but I found out when I had my gallbladder out, the rumor was going around I had had surgery for cancer and I had just been opened and closed right back up because there was nothing that could be done and I had about 3 months to live. I joked about it when I got back in the office, and my staff let me know several patients had called, very concerned about “Doc”! Now I am losing weight again, and even the people who know I am changing my lifestyle aren’t commenting on me being 40 pounds lighter! Maybe they are afraid to mention it 🙂
Also, when in undergrad, I agreed to go out with someone to have them leave me in peace, but going to their place for dinner? Before I had a chance to know them better? Not even in that more safe time. And the guy did leave me in peace until our date. Had he kept bugging me, I would have broken the date on the spot. As it turns out, he was very weird and it took a little dissuading to get him to leave me alone. esp. when I was at work. He finally got the hint (luckily I had not given him my phone number). It also turned out he dated my sis-in-law and was just as wierd with her (on our first date, he thought he should buy the same make and model of car I had so we would match–that was my hint).
This guy sounds like a pathological narcissist. Or a sociopath, I can’t really be sure from one story. Either way, creepy!
Sorry, no sympathy. You saw he was not right for you, but gave him your phone number anyway. And went on more than one date with him. Even I knew at 20 that too pushy guy = don’t hand out the phone number.
You remind me of myself when I was young. I felt I had to give a guy a chance even if I did not feel any immediate attraction to him; and I went out of my way to be polite and understanding. We were both fortunate not to have run into someone who would have seriously hurt us while we were being kind.
Is this another case of a woman putting herself in danger because she’s afraid to hurt a man’s feelings?
PrincessSimmi said “Haha! I’m part Russian, part English, with a bit of Chinese and born in Australia.” That makes you pure Aussie, doesn’t it? We’re all mongrels here.
DocCAC said “but for some reason, that day it got to her. She replied, “Well, I call it my cancer diet–chemo and radiation.”” I had a similar (though far less tragic) incident many years ago. A male co-worker said “you’ve lost weight so fast after your baby, how did you do it? My fiance is wanting to lose weight before the wedding”. When I said that it was the product of stress, post-natal depression, study, divorce and single parenthood he agreed that it wasn’t such a good weight-loss plan for his lady.
I would find someone who guessed my weight and bra size to be fascinating yet repulsive. You know, like that video of Japanese honeybees killing a hornet.
Others have said that the best thing to have done would have been to say no and make it stick, but I understand needs for both curiosity and distraction. I’d have suggested going out with him and asking a hundred questions. It was easy to see that he was into himself. I wouldn’t have been able to resist poking him to see how far he’d dig himself in. The questions would have started with how he got interested in fitness, whether his parents were into it, whether he had brothers and sisters who were as good looking as he was. When he guessed weight and size, I’d have asked how he learned to do that. Then get more personal. I know it’s not polite to answer rudeness with rudeness, but like I say, I wouldn’t have been able to resist. In the same innocent tone of voice, I’d have asked if he thought it was important in a marriage for a wife to worship her husband and feed his ego all the time. I’d wait to see if he noticed that I’d insulted him. In my experience, they usually don’t, so I have to go further. I’d ask if he thought his self absorption stemmed from feelings of inadequacy. Did he think being obnoxious made him more attractive? Wouldn’t he agree that men who don’t pleasure women in bed should stoned, that sort of thing. Of course, it’s not wise to taunt people in situations where you aren’t safe, but that’s the direction my imagination takes me in.
The way the guy guessed height, weight, bra size and was so muscled up, I am wondering whether he worked as a carnival side-show performer. Maybe he was used to being adored by the crowds or something like that.
It took me a long time to realize I had every right to say “no” to strangers without the worry of hurting their feelings. Be polite but firm. That’s the ticket.
When I was 18, my first semester of college, freshly freed from a three-year long relationship with my only ever boyfriend, I was amazed and delighted when a reasonably nice-looking guy seemed to take an interest in me, and asked me out on a real date. It was my first real date! I was bummed to discover he was a complete narcissist (I can SO easily believe everything the OP says, muscle flexing and all), but I was honestly amused and curious to see how appalling his behavior could get. It only went on for a few dates, a month or two at the most, and I figured it was all harmless fun. But, gosh, reading through the comments, I’m chagrined to realize that I *was* feeding his ego! I was, without meaning to, confirming his belief that he was awesome and desirable. I’ve rarely thought of him over the years, but am now inspired to warn my daughters of this type of seemingly amusing guy.
Also, my sister once dated (I assume for the same reasons) a similar guy. They met at a bar and talked for some time one night, and when she saw him there again a week or so later, he invited her to sit by him, and promptly looked her up and down and said, “Oh, you have a decent body. I don’t know, when I first met you, I thought you were pretty chubby.” ROFL. He later invited her to his place for some wine and cheese. I advised her to show up on his doorstep with a box of white zinfandel and a chunk of Velveeta.
This man could be an arrogrant egotistical idiot. However I do wonder if he thinks he has to date women who he likes instead of being firends with them: he might have problems defining firendship and relationship, girl-firend and girlfirend. Until he other changes his attuitede or gets help you are better off without him OP.
I agree with JennJenn68 – for the OP to give the idiot so many chances she must have been at a vulnerable time as she was studying, being reccently brevered (she admits that she needed the distraction, which is fair enough) as well as recovering from an eating disorder. During such a time it is easy to make errors of judgement @ DGS yes the OP was naive to go round to this idiot’s hosue but at the time she needed a distraction, she was curious about him and nothing dangerous happened. As the OP felt so uncomfortable about her weight being brought up it seems like she had an anxious episode/flashback which she suguests she was still vulnberale about her eating disorder.
It takes a woman/man a couple of bad dates bfs/gfs to find Mr/Mrs Right & Caring Compatable Spouse. Congrats OP on the engagment! Have a happy long marriage.
WrenskiBaby,
In my life, I have known five short guys, both gay and straight, who appeared (in my opinion) to use muscle-building as some sort of compensation for height. Let me be clear, I’m not saying that ALL short guys feel they need to compensate for their height. I’m saying that five very different, very distinct fellow I have known did. My thought is that his perceptions of his height (the OP mentioned he was shorter than her I believe) might have been the impetus for his hyper-involvement with his own muscles, tan, and teeth! LOL
@Leslie Holman-Anderson: “My mind is officially boggled, not only at OP’s story but at the total omission, from any response, of the word ’stalker.’”
That’s because he’s not a stalker if he keeps asking you out and you keep saying yes.
OP wrote:
He promised to be quiet if I would agree to go for dinner with him the next night. I agreed. He kept talking.
So, he broke his promise, and you still date him? You wanted to give him a fair chance. You did. You gave him an hour, and he usurped your study time, broke his promise, and treated you with disrespect.
There’s an old proverb: Fool me once – shame on you. Fool me twice – shame on me. How many times did he fool you?
I’m glad you found a better man now, and I hope you have learned from this to stand up for yourself.
“In my life, I have known five short guys, both gay and straight, who appeared (in my opinion) to use muscle-building as some sort of compensation for height. Let me be clear, I’m not saying that ALL short guys feel they need to compensate for their height. I’m saying that five very different, very distinct fellow I have known did.”
I really, really dislike when people say that about short guys. None of the short guys I hang around with or have dated acted that way. If I ran around commenting “I’ve known five tall girls who (whatever the stereotype is), just saying”, people would be saying “that’s unfair to imply tall girls tend to be that way.”
Lol oh I most definitely learned to say no after him! It’s been 10 years and I still can’t believe that he got my time. Most of you are correct in stating that I was way too nice back then. After talking with some of my friends over this one it sounds like most of us have at least one “shouldn’t have” in our past. Happy to say that it looks like we’ve all learned our lessons and have hilarious stories now.
–Lia – in a situation like the OP’s – grief-stricken and alone and desperate for some distraction, I probably would have taken the same route you suggest. I mean, watching the train wreck is why I read this site!
However, I wouldn’t have gone to his place for dinner – not safe.
Team Bakhta:
I was very careful to cite a number in order to stress that of ALL the men I’ve known, both short and tall, FIVE of them treated their height as something to be compensated for. You’ll notice that I was quite cautious not to paint short men sweepingly with the same brush.
When you think of all the short men I’ve met in my life (hundreds), to cite FIVE as having compensation issues—we’ll, that is hardly a treatise on short men in general.
However, the way the OP’s guy acted was the way these five did too which is what made me think of those fellows in particular.
‘He promised to be quiet if I would agree to go for dinner with him the next night. ‘
The correct response to this statement is:”I promise not to complain to the management that you’re harrassing me, if you agree to shut up and leave me alone. Now.’
‘@Leslie Holman-Anderson: “My mind is officially boggled, not only at OP’s story but at the total omission, from any response, of the word ’stalker.’”
That’s because he’s not a stalker if he keeps asking you out and you keep saying yes.’
Yes, in fact a man (or woman) who refuses to take ‘no’ for an answer, follows a woman around, blackmails her into a date by promising to be quiet ONLY if she agrees to go out with him (and still keeps talking anyway), is indeed a stalker. Whether or not the victim ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to his unwanted attention makes it no less bullying and inapropriate. Blaming her for his creepy narcisisstic behavior is absurd. I agree with the poster who recommended the book “The Gift Of Fear’ by Gavin De Becker. One of the things he warns women about in the book is not to fall prey to societal, particularly male, expecations that women must be ‘nice’ to everyone. Stalkers and criminals frequently manipulate women into situations they do not want to be in by implying that they are n0t being ‘nice’ when they say ‘no’. Young women are particularly vulnerable to this kind of manipulation because they just haven’t seen or experienced enough to recognize it. What a creep!
“He successfully guessed my size, weight and bra size.”
Aaaaand the date is OVER— buh-bye. No ‘giving him a chance.’ That’s beyond the pale, miss.
OP needs some boundaries.
Oh my, I think I may have dated this man my freshman year of college. If not the same man, his identical twin. What. A. Jerk.
Oh for the love of… ENOUGH with the “OP grow a spine” and “OP brought it on herself” posts. If that’s all you have to contribute, I think it’s safe to say we don’t need it. The OP shared the story because (as is ALWAYS the case) they KNEW they got walked on. Telling them to “grow a spine” doesn’t do anything to help them in the least.
Well, this is an older post, so I’m not sure if anyone reads the comments anymore, but…
Wow, this guy sounds like a sociopath! The only successful way you could have handled this guy was to run far, run fast, and then keep running. You should have never even agreed to a first date! I don’t mean to criticize, though. When I was in college, I probably would have agreed to a date with anyone who asked. It took a while (like, ten years) before I was able to recognize the signs of crazy right off the bat. Oh well, we live and learn, right?