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The Keys To The Kingdom And The Throne Room

My local coffee house has a single restroom for the entire establishment, and a single restroom key, available in a cup by the cash register.

On this particular day, there were around a dozen people in line waiting for the bathroom. The bathroom door has a sign asking patrons to get the key from the cash register, but people were just holding the door for one another. The employees were swamped, and did not care.

I was in the middle of the line when I noticed a woman walk up towards the front of the line and hover. She had the bathroom key in her hand. The next time the bathroom door opened, she grabbed the door, and silently handed the key to the person she had just cut, before entering the restroom.
Note: The line was long enough to see from the cash register.

I’ve gone through this scenario a couple of times in my head, and just come up with more questions. Did possession of the key give her the right to cut the line? Should everyone in line have been passing the key, or waiting at the cash register for it to be returned?

What’s the appropriate thing to say to such a person? What if she had some disability or illness that required immediate use of the facilities? If she had such a condition, would etiquette require her to ask the people in line, or is it okay just to cut? If you feel desperate enough so that you must cut, wouldn’t an apology be due when you emerge?

My first impression would be to condemn line cutting of any form, because there is no way of knowing the condition of the people currently waiting in line. What do you think? 0723-14

Well, this is certainly an interesting dilemma!   My first thought is the line cutter is a legalist following the letter of the “law” as dictated by the restaurant signage.   Following the directions as outlined by the management is generally a good idea but in this case, the employees and management appear to be just fine with people standing in line and offering an open door to the bathroom to the next person.   A strict application of the restaurant policy would have meant each person obtains the key, unlocks the bathroom, does their business, returns the key to the cash register and the next person in line gets the key and so forth.   It’s awkward and unnecessary considering how many people were in need of the bathroom so the patrons have skipped the extra steps and graciously hold the door for the next person.

As for desperate need to use the bathroom due to medical issues, particularly if it means cutting in the line, it would be polite to actually ask those waiting if you can do this…pretty please!   To not ask presumes that your need is far more important and urgent than anyone else’s and selfishly presumes others are not in desperate need as well.


Comments on this entry are closed.

  • Steve July 24, 2014, 7:46 am

    Don’t people learn “No cutting” in grammar school ? If a third-grader can understand it, the rule doesn’t require any more elaborate explanation than that.

    What if it’s a true emergency – meaning, “By the time you count to three-Mississippi, we are all going to be very embarrassed here,” not, “Our royal selves are experiencing unaccustomed discomfort?” Then somebody owes a profuse and humble apology, either on the way in or on the way out. You have no idea whether the person behind you suffers from one of those maladies you see in big Pharma commercials, so you can’t really presume your need is more urgent.

    I note that the line was in full view of the cash register. This is a pet peeve of mine. If you’re in the retail business, then crowd management is part of your job description, whether you like it or not, whether you’re busy or not. At the national chains, at least, no matter how packed the coffee shop is, there is always somebody behind the counter busily facing the logos on the coffee cups forward, or alphabetizing the napkins. Somebody like this should be charged with making sure the bathroom key is being properly handled once in a while. As in, there should not be a line at the door with the key still behind the counter.

    • Rebecca July 24, 2014, 2:39 pm

      I don’t see how this is necessary. The crowd was handling it just fine. If someone couldn’t get into the bathroom due to not having a key, then they could ask for a key. Otherwise, it was working just fine until Ms Entitlement came along.

      • Steve July 24, 2014, 5:50 pm

        Don’t see how what is necessary? If there’s a line, the people in line should have the key. Otherwise, if the door slams shut, they’re all going to be stuck until somebody fetches it.

      • Sura September 30, 2014, 4:25 pm

        The crowd was NOT handling it just fine, because *the key was at the cash register* and was *given out to another patron*. The key should have been passed to each person in the line; at no time should someone without a key have entered the rest room. If there is more than one key, then it should CLEARLY be marked as a spare by the establishment and its employees, if for no reason other than to *avoid customers walking in on one another*.

        Steve is absolutely correct.

    • Calliope July 24, 2014, 3:20 pm

      It’s not part of your job if your boss says it’s not. I worked in a grocery store in college, and we were not allowed to speak up when we saw customers cut in line. In fact, we weren’t even allowed to speak up if we saw a customer stuff a bottle of wine under his coat and walk out the door. I never saw a shoplifter, but I did see people cut in line all the time, and my hands were tied. Sad but true.

      • Rebecca July 24, 2014, 8:16 pm

        When I was a retail cashier I had a woman get all mad at me for not policing the line-up (some woman cut in front of her). I was really too busy ringing in the purchases and bagging them to know what was going on in the line-up, so I thought that was unreasonable.

      • Daphne July 25, 2014, 4:54 pm

        That’s interesting!

        • Daphne July 25, 2014, 4:55 pm

          oops, my comment was meant @Calliope. Not that you are not interesting as well Rebecca! 🙂

    • AMC July 25, 2014, 1:07 pm

      I’d like to point out that they also learn “Read the directions before proceeding” in grammar school.

  • catwoman2965 July 24, 2014, 8:07 am

    I don’t really see any issue with the folks in line simply holding the door open as they come out, for the next person. Its clear they are waiting to use the bathroom, and it would be very inefficient and time consuming for each and every one to bring the key back to the employees, and each person in line have to then get it, then go back. Its just common sense.

    As for the woman who actually had the key, I really don’t think in this scenario, it makes any difference. She was rude to butt in front of the line. A line is a line, whether or not you need a key to get in. And, if she did have some urgent need, then she should have spoken up, and not simply gone in ahead of all the others who had been waiting.

  • danmar7 July 24, 2014, 8:10 am

    I know that woman! She’s been in line behind me at the grocery checkout several times, most often, the express lane.

    There I am, second or third in line, with my little carry basket of fewer-than-#-items, just like the customers in front of me, when someone taps my shoulder. I turn to see this woman, with a full sized push cart packed with 3 to 4 times the recommended number of items for an express lane.

    “I need to go in front of you.” No ‘excuse me’, no explanation, nothing. Just the demand. The first time, I let her go, because rudeness doesn’t cancel rudeness, right? After pondering the situation, though, I decided that I wouldn’t have been rude to decline her demand. Learn to wait your turn.

    If she’d said anything like “I have to get back to my elderly patient” or “I’m late picking up the kids” or “Something urgent has come up”, I’d let her go. At least come up with an excuse why you can’t spare the 3 extra minutes waiting your turn. If you’re that pressed for time, maybe going for a big shop is not appropriate right now. If there’s an emergency, leave your cart at customer service and come back.

    Same for the coffee shop – sounds like a very popular place with facilities in high demand. But get in line. Try asking if the person ahead minds letting you go ahead of him or her. Even boldly and loudly ask the entire line if they would allow you to go next. I hope the back of her head burned with the death glares as she left the restroom.

    • Miss-E July 24, 2014, 1:06 pm

      Good call on that lady. My mother, who is in her mid-60s and has very bad knees and a bad back, was once online and an elderly man on a motorized scooter demanded to go in front of her because he is disabled. She politely declined, she figured he was sitting down and could stand to wait a few minutes. You go to a busy store, you should expect to wait in line. What is it they always say on this site? “Lack of planning on your part does not necessitate an emergency on my part”? That lady trying to cut you should have planned her day out better so she wouldn’t be in such a rush. Not your problem.

  • Daphne July 24, 2014, 8:17 am

    I would have nicely said, loud enough for her to hear, “excuse me ma’am but there is a line” while smiling & not sounding curt or anything. I’ve actually been guilty of this myself, accidentally of course, and have been embarrassed to find out I was cutting.

    • JO July 24, 2014, 11:39 am

      I thought this too – it sounds like she may not have been really sure what she should do, since it was posted to get the key to use the bathroom. Perhaps she suffers from Asperger’s or a processing disorder, and she just couldn’t interpret the fact that there was a line and she should wait. Of course it’s also possible she was an entitled boor, but since we can’t know for sure, if it were me I’d let it go for now. If it happens again simply state, in a pleasant tone, “I’m sorry ma’am, but there is a line.”

      • Steve July 24, 2014, 5:54 pm

        If it happens again? How many times do you stand in the same line waiting for the same thing behind the same person?

        What is with this obsession with searching desperately for unlikely medical explanations for every gaffe? Aspergers is relatively uncommon, but rudeness is epidemic. Occam’s razor, people.

      • Daphne July 25, 2014, 5:32 pm

        To me, aspergers is no excuse for not learning the proper way to behave. Even if someone has a “processing disorder” they can still memorize the idea that cutting in ANY line is rude. Furthermore, if autism IS the case, pointing out that cutting in line is not correct is sort of doing the lady a favor, because really, you just helped teach her a valuable life lesson.

  • AMC July 24, 2014, 8:39 am

    Call me a legalist, but it really irks me when I follow the rules or proper procedures while others do not, yet they aren’t made to face the consequences. Or worse, they are given precedence over me despite foregoing the rule/procedures. I get that it would have been cumbersome to take the key back and forth to the register, but at the very least the customers could have passed the key to one another as they went in and out of the bathroom. This would have alleviated any confusion. OR the lady could have gotten the key and still waited in line, then passed it to the next person. That actually probably would have been the best scenario. But just because the other customers collectively agreed to ignore the house rules doesn’t make them right.
    The restaurant is really at fault here. If you’re not going to enforce the rules, what’s the point of having them? With that much traffic, they should probably consider doing away with the get-the-key-from-the-register procedure all together and just leave the restroom unlocked.

    • Steve July 24, 2014, 11:33 am

      I don’t think the patrons were forming a Marxist Collective and deciding that Occupy Starbucks would now control the facilities. Some birdbrain, probably long gone by now, simply held the door open for another customer, but instead of sensibly passing them the key, brought it back to the cashier.

      • RC July 24, 2014, 4:45 pm

        Teeheehee, I like your answer Steve. Not everything has a hidden agenda, the patrons weren’t trying to ‘Stand Up to The Man and Down with the Key!’ It’s just easier, and more polite, to keep the line moving faster by politely holding a door open rather than fumbling about with a germ covered key like it’s the baton that without possession of, one should not dare enter that bathroom.

        As a side note, as someone who has worked in a busy cafe, where the key regularly went missing, I would prefer it stayed in the cup than be passed unnecessarily from person to person.

      • Yankeegal77 August 2, 2014, 10:23 am

        I love your response, Steve and agree. Someone trying to be polite and probably forgetting/not thinking to pass the key opened the door and each bathroom-user paid it forward. Ironically, a group of people trying to be polite inspired a rude act on The Keymaster’s part. (I live in NYC, and that *NEVER* would have been allowed here.)

    • Meegs July 24, 2014, 2:57 pm

      Come one now. This is not about enforcing or following rules. This is about using common sense.

  • Ashley July 24, 2014, 9:19 am

    She was rude to cut. If she had a medical condition or an emergency, she still should have asked those in line. Otherwise, I think she was trying to “game the system.”

  • wren July 24, 2014, 9:29 am

    The words “Excuse me, I’m not well, would you mind if I went next, please?” said in urgent tones will get you to a toilet quickly.

    As for Key Lady, I advise chalking it up to the list of interesting people you’ll run into during your lifetime. Who knows what her issue was? Urgent need, entitlement, or did she just not understand bathroom-line etiquette? Discuss, then move on.

  • Cat July 24, 2014, 9:35 am

    I am impressed that the person to whom she gave the key did not use it to enter the restroom and to order her out, “Wait your turn!”
    There is no excuse for her behavior. With these people, I thank whatever determined that I should not be related to them and do not have to have them over at Christmas and Easter.

    • PatGreen July 27, 2014, 4:41 pm

      And get charged with sexual harassment or just see another person’s body without their permission. That would have been far ruder.

  • Freq Flyer July 24, 2014, 9:46 am

    Why in the world would you frequent a coffee shop with only one restroom and a line to use it?

    • Jenn50 July 24, 2014, 12:47 pm

      I can’t speak for the OP, but in my community, there is only one coffee shop. The next nearest is a 30 minute drive away in another town. I’d risk the line, in the off chance I’d need to use the restroom while I was there.

    • Anonymous July 25, 2014, 10:00 pm

      Why in the world would anyone build a coffee shop with only one bathroom in the first place?

      • Elodie July 26, 2014, 7:50 am

        Limited size/space.

        Most coffee shops I know only have one bathroom, or maybe one per gender. This is even the chain ones.

      • SusanB July 26, 2014, 9:11 am

        Because that is the minimum required by the building code, more would be considered an additional expense. No, they don’t care about customers comfort when it comes to expenses.

  • lakey July 24, 2014, 9:58 am

    If the restaurant isn’t enforcing its own directions for using the restroom, and they know that there is a line of people following a different routine, then I believe that the routine with the key is done.

    If the woman had a good reason, she should have said so. I’m not sure I would frequent a coffee shop that had only one restroom. Coffee is a diuretic. I know that some of these shops are in older buildings and adding bathrooms would be a significant investment, but I just couldn’t handle a line of 12 people.

  • Angeldrac July 24, 2014, 10:05 am

    Can I just say that I, for one, am sick and tired of the “they might have medical issues” excuse that is being persistently offered up on this forum. Yes medical issues exist, but, we’re discussing etiquette, here. Either let these people with “medical issues” learn to deal with them in and etiquette-minded way, or let us cast them into ehell.

    • Whodunit July 24, 2014, 11:17 am

      Please recognize that it Is an etiquette issue in how we respond to the person with the medical issue because it is often different than the way we respond to a non medical issue, etiquette is about grace, kindness and consideration not necessarily always about who is right.

      • Angeldrac July 25, 2014, 10:30 pm

        Of course I recognise that – and I am a very strong believer in etiquette being about respect for our fellow humans and not fancy rules dictated by a book. But, if you look back on the last few weeks of stories, the comments are riddled with “the might have medical issues” excuses. I say excuses because they are not genuine reasons coming from the party involved, they are contrivances made up be the readers. Not only does the persistent way of thinking not actually help us address the etiquette issue at hand (because OF COURSE any decent person would make allowances for genuine medical issues), but it can be both insulting to those with genuine issues and undermines the reality of their experience.

        • admin July 26, 2014, 4:01 am

          I’ve noticed the same trend of readers offering medical explanations to excuse poor behavior when the original story never mentioned any such disability.

    • Miss-E July 24, 2014, 1:11 pm

      I could not agree more, thank you for saying this! It’s like how “maybe they have aspergers” has become the excuse for any odd or impolite behavior. If you have some kind of condition you still have to learn to function within the rules of society or face the consequences of your behavior.

      • JO July 24, 2014, 3:49 pm

        For the record – having thrown out the possibility myself – I don’t believe having Asperger’s (or one of a number of related disorder’s) is an”excuse” for bad behavior. It’s a *possible* explanation. But that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be called out on it. Politely, of course.

        • JO July 24, 2014, 3:51 pm

          *disorders,* not *disorder’s* oh my English teacher would be cringing 🙂

      • EchoGirl July 24, 2014, 11:50 pm

        As someone who actually does have Asperger’s, this excuse-making also only seems to apply to openly obnoxious behavior, and that mostly from men. Guy gets in my face and won’t leave me alone? “He might have Asperger’s.” I’m getting upset, in part because of my Asperger’s? “You’re being too sensitive/ would it have killed you to make conversation for a few minutes?”

        • PatGreen July 27, 2014, 3:45 pm

          Unfortunately now everyone has access to the internet so they have access to all sorts of ways to diagnose themselves with something. And unfortunately Asperger’s and autism are currently “cool” conditions to have – not only do you get an excuse on not having social skills, you don’t have to work on them and hey, you’re like that smart guy from that TV show! (Sherlock Holmes from BBC’s Sherlock, Maurice Moss from The IT Crowd, Dr. Brennan from Bones, Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory, Spencer Reid from Criminal Minds). It’s trendy.

          I have been diagnosed with ADD and OCD by a psychologist. She sent me to a psychiatrist for medication and he independently confirmed her diagnoses before giving me a prescription for Adderall which I take as prescribed. I cannot tell you how wonderful it is to be on the medication verse off of it. Now of course it bugs me when people brush off a hyperactive child as “oh maybe he/she as ADD” – the parents need to either get a prescription so he/she doesn’t suffer or teach the kid to behave. Likewise people who try to brush off their own behavior as “I’m a little ADD/OCD” with not attempt to change it bother me. I know from experience that those who say such a thing will be angry if you suggest a psychologist because, “why can’t you accept me as I am!”

          And OCD is also fun these days (Monk, Dr. Kevin Casey from Scrubs, etc.) and they always seem to be focused on neatness or how their OCD give them “powers” as opposed to twitching because the radio station that’s playing in the car is not made up of all even numbers.

          What I’m saying is, I feel your pain.

  • Angeldrac July 24, 2014, 10:10 am

    Can I just say that I, for one, am sick and tired of the “they might have medical issues” excuse that is being persistently offered up on this forum. Yes medical issues exist, but, we’re discussing etiquette, here. Either let these people with “medical issues” learn to deal with them in and etiquette-minded way, or let us cast them into ehell.
    Only very recently, I found myself in a department store, 9 months pregnant, desperate to relieve myself, not knowing where the toilets were and at the end of a long queue at the register. I did things as politely as I could and went to the front of the queue, addressed the couple at the front and the cashier, saying “I am so sorry, I wouldn’t do thins unless I absolutely needed to, but could you possibly point me to the nearest toilets?”. The cashier was very understanding and helpful.
    (Btw – I know I said “toilet” instead of “bathroom”. I am Australian – a bathroom is where you have a bath)

    • Sura September 30, 2014, 4:30 pm

      THANK YOU. I have noted and decried this trend as well. My theory is that someone prone to hypochondria might likewise be prone to complaining about other people’s behavior…i.e., not one to embrace a sense of personal responsibility, if you will

  • DaDancingPsych July 24, 2014, 10:10 am

    I am not really sure what is appropriate as far as the key. It seems rather silly to continuously involve the staff in this situation, but as stated, that was not the process as outlined by the sign. Had I come upon this situation, I would have went to the end of the line… key or no key.

    I am reminded of a situation I encountered at the theater. The line to the bathroom during intermission was outrageous… the longest that I have ever seen a bathroom line! There must have been 40 people in front of me and the line was growing from behind. This older lady cautiously walked past everyone with a look of concern. Another woman very politely stated, “Excuse me, but the end of the line is back there.” The originally lady timidly replied, “I know, but I can’t hold it.” The other woman gave her an understanding nod and on she continued towards the front. I really believe that it was an emergency situation and she knew that she was breaking an etiquette rule (not to mention that she was incredibly embarrassed), but I could never see myself insisting that she go to the end. Tricky situation!

    • Steve July 24, 2014, 11:40 am

      “that was not the process as outlined by the sign”

      But that’s not the process anyway. The process is really, “We keep the bathroom locked, so that people can’t use it to bathe, sleep or shoot up. If you need to use it for legitimate purposes, ask us for a key so that we can give you a once-over and make sure you’re not planning to be a long-term tenant.”

      In other words, the process is more for the employees than for the customers. It’s management’s job to keep the riffraff out, not the customers’. The sign is there simply to tell customers how to get through toilet security.

  • Wendy B. July 24, 2014, 10:13 am

    She was wrong…but it really seems silly to me to even make patrons get a key. Especially if things like this (Lines, holding the door) are going to happen.

  • JenAnn July 24, 2014, 10:33 am

    Omg, she was so, so, soooo rude

  • Jenny R July 24, 2014, 10:38 am

    I read here frequently about people cutting the line, people can only cut the line if they are allowed to get away with it. I have had people blatantly do that to me twice, I shut them down and outed them to others nearby. Shame is sometimes a good thing and these people earned some. One was a checkout line and the other a bathroom line. If a person doesn’t tell me they need to go before me because of a medical issue then they leave it to me to make assumptions about their thinking and I would think that they just didn’t want to wait in line. Don’t let line jumpers jump.

    The key in this case was openly available and was not being controlled by anyone. There is no difference to me between someone using an unneeded and uncontrolled key and people just holding the door for each other. In either usage, the bathroom was open to anyone to use. The woman should have gone to the end of the line, key in hand or not. Line jumpers only do what they do because people let them get away with it.

    • Steve July 24, 2014, 11:48 am

      I will confess an incident when I was young that will be quite e-hell unapproved.

      Picture this: a Christmas Eve rush to buy a token present for an unexpected guest. Icy and windy outside. One coffee shop open in the commercial area for all the frozen, tired, harried, tense last-minute shoppers to share. Long, long line.

      Waiting patiently, I saw a woman walk in the door, glance the line up and down, and stride right up to the cashier. “Just a milk please.” The bumbling nincompoop behind the counter actually served her one of those unopened single-serving cartons. She fumbled through her purse looking to pay.

      Someone called out, “Excuse me, there’s a long line.”

      She said, “I just want some milk . I’m in a hurry.”

      The crowd did not like this. I called out, “We all ‘just’ want something. We are all in a hurry.'”

      She gave me a smirk, which, as it turns out, was a most unwise move on her part. I turned to the person behind me and asked her to hold my place. I strode up to the cashier, took the milk carton, and put it in my pocket.

      I pointed to the last person in line, five people behind me, and told the line jumper, “When that person is served, you’ll get your milk.”

      Then I walked back to my place in line amid loud cheering and clapping. The jumper turned and left without her beverage.

      Not in the Christmas spirit? Perhaps not. I did make a lot of people very happy, though.

      • NostalgicGal July 24, 2014, 2:14 pm


      • RC July 24, 2014, 4:50 pm

        *applause* I love this story. Certainly not e-hell approved, but in a high stress situation like Christmas, I would have been one of the patrons cheering for you!

      • Yet Another Laura July 25, 2014, 9:27 am

        I wish more people would call out line jumpers with “We all just want something. The end of the line is back there.”

        Most of the time in my experience, line jumpers know full well they’re doing it and don’t care how many people they’re stepping on. A true emergency or an accidental line cut usually results in the person being apologetic about it, either asking first (for an emergency) or apologizing and going to the end (for the accidental line cut).

        If more people called out bad behavior, there might be less of it.

        • Yankeegal77 August 2, 2014, 10:36 am

          I agree, Yet Another Laura. This woman’s actions were pretty brazen and while perhaps not e-Hell approved, I think sometimes there are situations where someone needs to be called out (non-politely) and hopefully, Steve’s solution to dealing with it was a good lesson for that woman. And for the cashier. I’m going to speculate a bit–I thought that perhaps the kid was new and intimidated, but when I was a cashier and someone tried to pull that, I’d tell them to get in line. Happened quite a few times (with a near fistfight on one occasion)–and people in the line backed me up!

          If this were an emergency (sick kid in the car, etc) I think if she ASKED and apologized folks would have been pretty accommodating. It was the entitlement and smugness that set people off. Yes, indeed, if more people spoke up, perhaps fewer would act out.

    • Lera99 July 24, 2014, 12:09 pm

      I once cut a line completely by accident.

      It was during the holiday season. The store was PACKED and the line for the register stretched way down the aisles to half way through the store.

      I had to walk through the middle of the line to get some candles that I was buying for my step mother. Once I had the candles I consulted my list to make sure I had everything as I stood in line.

      Yep, my mind was going 1,000 miles a minute and after I had said “excuse me” to this one guy so I could get through the line to get to some candles – I took a step back into the middle of the line as if I’d been there the whole time.

      It was honestly not intentional. I didn’t even realize I’d done it until I was two people away from the register, looked up from my list, and realized the guy who had let me through to get to the candles was ALSO the guy standing behind me in line. Suddenly I realized I’d cut into the line ahead of half the people who’d been waiting.

      I’m sure I turned bright red when I blurted out “Oh my goodness! I cut right in front of you! I am so sorry!”

      The guy laughed and said “It’s really no problem. You’re only getting two candles. I don’t mind waiting and no one behind me has complained.”

      I was so embarrassed that I went to the back of the line anyway apologizing the whole time.
      It took another 20 minutes to get back to the register so I could buy my candles.

      • BellyJean July 24, 2014, 7:38 pm

        Good on you for that. I’m impressed you went through with moving to the back of the line. I would have been so very flustered, and I hope I’d have had the wherewithal to move. Props!

      • EchoGirl July 24, 2014, 11:52 pm

        It’s definitely a different story when you do it by accident. Yes, it may still be rude, but it’s inadvertent, whereas knowingly cutting the line is essentially saying “my needs are more important than yours”.

      • PatGreen July 27, 2014, 3:58 pm

        I’ve had times when someone jumps the line and I act like I believe it is an accident – because sometimes it is.

        I was in line for coffee one time and the line went past the door. So I, and the other people in line, left a gap in front of the doors so people could still enter and leave. A few times someone would enter and get in line behind the person on the side of the door closer to the counter. Usually the closest person would point out the other people waiting that the accidental line jumper would apologize and move to the back of the line.

        There is a difference between the people jumping deliberately and those doing so on accident. Usually politely bringing attention to it either corrects the behavior or allows the person to state their reason.

        For example I once asked the woman at the front a bathroom line if I could go ahead of her as my monthly visitor had surprised me by coming early and she was gracious enough to let me do so. I did however make sure to ask and give a reason so I would not be thought of as a “special snowflake”.

  • Livvy17 July 24, 2014, 11:05 am

    I agree she is a line jumper. She knew what she was doing, she just decided to use the “policy” as a weapon to jump the line.

    I liken this to situations where there is one line to approach two side-by-side registers. It’s most fair that the next available cashier service the customer that’s been waiting the longest. Lines like this often form on their own, to most people’s satisfaction, but then you’ll have someone walk up, and stand behind one of the registers particularly. If I’m first in the line, I’ll point out the line, and most times, the person will apologize, and go to the back of the line. However, I’ve had someone tell me that there were two lines, she was in one, I wasn’t waiting in either, therefore I wasn’t in line at all. Short of causing a public scene, what’s one to do?

    • Stacey Frith-Smith July 24, 2014, 3:14 pm

      In large stores in the US, there is a separate line for each register. Although “first come, first served” is the best principle- people aren’t accustomed to lining up that way. Also,the registers that are “open:” aren’t always close to one another. You choose a line and that’s the one you are stuck in. Same thing for lines at some large banks and many other entertainment venues. If no ropes or partitions guide the line and no staff are monitoring then you are only “next” for your cashier. (And you might leave the store much later than your neighboring consumer, whose line wasn’t halted for a price-check, argument about coupons, or declined credit card.) I guess it’s important to know the customs of your particular institution or you could be accused of “holding up the line” or “cutting” while waiting for the next available checker.

  • Ashley July 24, 2014, 11:19 am

    To me it kind of seems like she grabbed the key to illustrate “Look, I’m doing it right, all you people holding the door are doing it wrong.”

    She was rude. Cutting in line is rude. That’s really the end of the discussion. Had I seen her headed that way, make no buts about it I would have said as politely as possible “Hi, there’s kind of a line today, since it’s so busy, the end of it is over there!” and then pointed.

    I’m curious why the place even needs a key anyway, does the door not lock from the inside? Because aside from the rude lady, it seems like people were doing pretty okay with politely holding the door for one another.

    • Rebecca July 24, 2014, 8:19 pm

      A lot of places lock their washrooms and require a key from the front counter to discourage random non-customers from wandering in and using the facilities without buying anything.

  • Dee July 24, 2014, 1:05 pm

    Could it be that people, in looking for the bathroom, see the end of the line-up and simply join it, without thinking about a key? They wouldn’t actually go to get a key anyway, if they know there is one, because they would assume that key is already in the hands of the person inside the bathroom. If there is no line-up one might go to the counter first, to enquire if a key is necessary, but seeing a line-up already I think one’s mind simply assumes that they’re in the right place and that’s that.

    And that a key might be in plain sight may be no help to someone who is new to an establishment. I find that there are so many distracting things to catch the eye that it is difficult to orient myself in new places, and it takes at least two visits for me to notice things that are actually rather obvious.

  • Karen L July 24, 2014, 2:01 pm

    I’m a strict “legalist” and even I, if I found myself in this situation, I would get the key, wait at the back of the line like a decent human being, and when I got my turn and finished, would hand the key to the next person in line.

    There is a practical reason for keeping the key in the line. Suppose just as you go into the restroom, the line vanishes. Now someone gets the key, opens the door and — hello! — there you are in all your glory!

    • BellyJean July 24, 2014, 7:40 pm

      Very good point! And I’m glad you added the caveat of waiting. 🙂

  • Kim July 24, 2014, 2:30 pm

    Many years ago I was waiting in line at the university I attended to register for classes (way before it could be accomplished online) and of course there were hundreds of people lined up with a half dozen people to serve them. We were all lined up out the room, down the hallway. The registration desk room was a long one, with people standing at the front along the wall, behind a rope, as they came in the door (and we worked our way down the wall to the front of the line). The way it was configured, some people farther back in the line would be closer to the people serving than those at the front of the line. Can you picture it?

    Anyway, I was 2 or 3 people from the front, and one of the employees said “next!” and a woman farther back towards the entrance (maybe 15-20 people behind me) stepped over the rope and walked the five feet to that employee’s desk. I was flabbergasted. We were all waiting so long and this just wasn’t done in my area of Canada (we’re way too polite here, and this was also in the Maritimes, where everyone is known to be nice). Nobody said anything. And 20 years later, I’m still annoyed that I said nothing. And the employee just helped this woman like normal. Everyone saw it. It was obvious.

    For all I know, that woman is still cutting in lines. Nobody stopped her so she learned it worked.

    I wish I could have a do-over.

  • Rebecca July 24, 2014, 2:46 pm

    And then there are the people who think that having children prioritizes them in washroom lineups. I was attending an event in a park that was just wrapping up, and I had to leave to go get a bus to go to work. To my dismay, there was a huge line-up for the washroom. I really needed to go and didn’t think I could manage sitting on public transit and waiting till I got to work, so I got in line. After I’d been in line for quite a while (and I was getting anxious about the time), a woman came along with a child and demanded to be let in front because “I have a chiiiiiild.” Yes, well I have to go to wooooooooork and my need is at least as urgent as your child’s – – not to mention, I can be in and out of that stall quickly, while you will be spending ages fiddling around with child issues. Get in line like everyone else.

    • EchoGirl July 25, 2014, 12:09 am

      I was once waiting for nearly two hours in an outdoor terminal to get on a commuter bus (I was fairly early because I always leave extra time in case something goes wrong, which this time nothing did and the city transit bus was actually running early, and the bus came late) in about 20-degree weather (I did have handwarmers and warm clothes, but that only helps so much). I was the first person there by at least 5-10 minutes and a lot of people were waiting inside their cars instead of out in the cold. When the bus finally showed up, most people deferred to me because they knew I’d been there first, but a mother and child hopped out of a car and cut in front of me, and the bus driver let her because she had the child. She then spent several minutes digging in her bags for her ticket and trying to corral her child while the rest of us waited out in the cold. I understand being lenient to some extent with parents who have children with them, but that doesn’t mean they’re entitled to super-priority treatment when others have been waiting much longer, especially if they’re then likely to slow down the line that was waiting before they got there.

    • kit July 25, 2014, 7:12 am

      I suspect the reasoning behind “I have a child” is that a (small) child usually can hold it for shorter time than a grown-up. So having a child goes under the “I really can’t hold it more” issue – do you feel better if they go to the end of line if it means peed-on floor and a wet and stinky child, or when you let them to run for it?

      • Calliope July 25, 2014, 4:22 pm

        I do find it strange that most people seem OK with the idea that an adult might need to ask to cut in line in an emergency situation, but don’t seem to care if a child is in the same predicament. It should go without saying that children are people, too, but apparently it doesn’t.

        • EchoGirl July 26, 2014, 2:10 am

          I don’t think that’s the case at all. I do think some people assume that having kids with them entitles them to priority treatment regardless of the actual urgency involved, and those are the people that most of these posters here are getting frustrated at. (Miss-E’s example below this is a good one — she didn’t even have the kids with her and she used them as an excuse to cut a serving line.)

    • Miss-E July 25, 2014, 10:15 am

      I hate entitled parents. A woman tried to jump ahead of me in a coffee shop once saying ‘I’m in a rush, I have to get my kids from camp.’ I politely refused and she reiterated, ‘I have CHILDREN and I have to go get them!’ At which point I said, ‘well, seeing as I didn’t get you pregnant it doesn’t sound like this is my problem.’

      Etiquette appropriate? Nope! But it sure felt great and after glaring at me for a few moments she retreated to the end of the line.

    • Calliope July 25, 2014, 2:14 pm

      It’s rude to “demand” to be let ahead of anyone else, but I will always let a parent with a small child go ahead of me. Yes, I might need to go just as urgently as the small child does, but as an adult, I have more control over my bodily functions than the child has over his or hers. I’m not obligated to let the “chiiiiild” ahead of me, but I think it’s the compassionate and reasonable thing to do. And if you would have a problem with a potty-training child being given priority in such a situation, I hope you don’t also have a problem with a child having an accident on the coffee shop floor, because that’s what’s going to happen if they don’t get to the toilet in time.

      • Steve July 25, 2014, 5:37 pm

        So a child’s needs are always more urgent than an adult’s? What an interesting assumption.

        • Calliope July 26, 2014, 10:08 am

          Oh, please. I didn’t say anything like that. What I said was that I have more control over my bodily functions than a small child has over his or hers. I’m talking about children at potty training age. If you feel like you’re about to have an accident on the coffee shop floor, by all means use the restroom as quickly as you can. I’ve never found myself in that situation as an adult, so waiting an extra two minutes for a toddler who’s doing the “I gotta go” dance is not an issue for me.

    • Reboot July 25, 2014, 2:46 pm

      What took the cake for me was being chastised by a mother for using the disabled access toilet, thus making her wait in line for it. Well, I’m sorry, but I’m fairly certain my cane and need for the assistance bars trump your child, ma’am.

      • NostalgicGal July 25, 2014, 6:37 pm

        I agree. I did my self in recently and have a few months yet of enforced SIT, cane/walker/motie (thankyou places that have those) and no real lifting and absolutely no kneeling. Having more room and grab bars is nice. I can use the regular ones but it’s much easier to use that stall; and usually I don’t get flak with my extra leg to get around. If you’re in there with your kid already, lady, then I have to wait. If it’s my turn first, your kid doesn’t trump my need. When I get healed up again I can use anything; but right now I appreciate those stalls. If someone needs it worse (wheelchair or say halo cast or full walker) they can go ahead of me… Unless you or your kid are special needs and really needs the stall, it’s mine in turn, you can wait for your turn.

  • Shorty22 July 24, 2014, 2:52 pm

    If she was going to bother with the key, shouldn’t she have kept it herself? If we’re getting all technical about it, that would have been the procedure.. get the key, let yourself in, do your business and leave with the key still in your possession to return.

    I wonder if they continued to hold the door open for the next person *and* also hand them the key or if the new keyholder just brought it back to the cashier after s/he was done, letting the line continue with the door holding as they were.

  • Jewel July 24, 2014, 4:09 pm

    I wouldn’t have blamed anyone in line for stating to the woman, “The end of the line is back there” if they could catch her before she went in. If not, when she exited the bathroom, someone should have said, “Why did you cut in line? There were 7 of us who were already waiting for the bathroom.” If she spouted some nonsense about having the key, I would have said, “That’s not justification for cutting in line. Please wait your turn next time.”

    I did something sort of similar at a small town theater recently. There were two lines formed on opposite ends of the concession counter. Three of the four employees disappeared into the back room leaving one teen girl to serve all the customers. Unfortunately, she kept serving the line of customers on the left; it was like the customers lined up on the right were completely invisible to her. Once it was clear that the young family ahead of me on the right weren’t going to say anything about being ignored, I called out, “This family is ready to order!” while pointing to them.

    I felt completely justified about it. The concession employee should have been more aware of the customers waiting in the other line AND she should have called other employees to come up to help serve. Also, the woman next in line on the left (about to be served) had clearly sized up what was going on when arriving in the lobby and chose the left line. When the concession employee approached her to take her order and it became clear she wasn’t going to say a word about those of us waiting on the right, I spoke up (which is what she should have done).

    I guess the older I get, the less inclined I am to put up with nonsense like this.

    • Steve July 24, 2014, 6:02 pm

      I think your response was perfect, especially since you simply passed on information. It’s not like you inquired about her IQ or her parentage.

    • BellyJean July 24, 2014, 7:54 pm


    • Kate July 24, 2014, 8:30 pm

      I don’t know about the line thing, but in the employee’s defense, she probably couldn’t have called anyone up to help her, at least if it was a chain theater. I worked in retail for a year recently, and frankly, customer service doesn’t exist as far as corporate policies are concerned. They want as much profit as possible and they don’t care what else happens.

      The store (or theater) manager gets a certain amount of money to pay staff with on any given day. It doesn’t matter how many people are in the store really, that is how much money s/he gets.

      So for a store like mine for example, it would be an incredibly busy sale day, with 10 or more people in line, and there would be five workers in the entire store, or less. One department manager, two fabric cutters, two cashiers and that’s it. And this is for a huge store. Often times we would have a line of people 20 or 30 deep waiting for fabric to be cut, for instance.

      And the number of people they have working in the store totally ignores the actual number of people in the store, who aren’t on federally mandated (and for good reason) breaks and lunches. Of course, I won’t go into how corporate policies try to squeeze as much work out of people as possible while trying to give them as few breaks and lunches as possible. Such as having them work 5 hours and 45 minutes so they don’t have to let you have lunch. That is of course a whole other story.

      TL;DR I know nothing about the line thing, but that poor concession stand girl might have been the only person working in the theater and couldn’t call anyone else to come up and help. If it is a chain, the best way to get the policy changed is not to complain to the workers, but to corporate. Tell them they need to hire more workers and that you are willing to pay higher prices for it and that they “aren’t providing good customer service” with so few workers.

      • Jewel July 25, 2014, 9:50 am

        ” that poor concession stand girl might have been the only person working in the theater and couldn’t call anyone else to come up and help.”

        As mentioned in my post, three of the four teenage employees disappeared into the back room. Because this is a small town theater, the door to the back room is about 6 steps from the concession counter. The teenage concession employee left to deal with everyone just didn’t take the initiative to open the door and shout for help. 🙂

        I’m sure this was a “live and learn” situation for her. By a customer courteously pointing out that she was ignoring those of us on the right, I hope she learned to be more aware of her surroundings. If she was embarrassed, perhaps she mentioned to the others that she didn’t appreciate being left in a bad spot. One can only hope!

        We go to this theater frequently, so if we see this kind of thing happening again, we’ll let the owner know that their on-the-clock employees are disappearing during crucial times (like minutes before the movie is to start and the lobby is still full of people wanting their popcorn!).

  • kingsrings July 24, 2014, 7:20 pm

    I used to experience terrible line-cutting at a food pantry I used to have to go to. People would line up an hour or more before it opened so they could get good dibs on the food offerings. But unfortunately some people in line would save places for their friends who would arrive right before the food pantry opened and then just stand behind their friend! Those of us who had waited a while would protest and complain, but the offenders denied that they were doing anything wrong. Sadly, since people lined up before the pantry opened for the day, there were no workers present to monitor the line, so we were left to fend for ourselves on enforcing good line etiquette. And some of those people scared me too much to want to risk getting them too angry at me, so I would just let them cut. I stopped going to that pantry for that reason. : (

  • kingsrings July 24, 2014, 7:25 pm

    I cannot stand it when dining establishments have just one, lone uni-sex bathroom! Especially coffee houses, which are usually the most guilty of having this. Um, what does coffee make people do? Lone bathrooms lead to long waits, especially if the person presently in there has a “big job” to do. And the last time I was at a coffee house I was waiting in line for the bathroom, and TWO people, a man and a woman, exited from there. Why and what they were doing in there I don’t want to know! But it wouldn’t have happened if it wasn’t a lone bathroom.

    • Anonymous July 25, 2014, 2:19 pm

      Yes, this. Butting in line is rude, but building a food-and-drink establishment (ESPECIALLY a coffee shop or a bar) with only one bathroom, is a monumentally stupid idea.

  • Jenn July 24, 2014, 7:59 pm

    I too have jumped in line for the bathroom and it was a long line. Unfortunately the bladder problems that i now have make it so that i feel the need to pee about two minutes before i do it and yes i always apologize once i have relieved myself but if i did not cut in the moment i had the sensation for pee it would be very embarrassing for myself and those around me and yes i know this from experience. So lets give this one a break because we don’t know why she did it.

    • Steve July 24, 2014, 8:36 pm


      • Jenn50 July 24, 2014, 10:26 pm

        Sorry, but if you need to line jump due to urgency, the least you can do is let the others in line know it’s an emergency, which can even be called out as you dart in, with no extra time taken if it’s that critical. And then an apology on your way out. This doesn’t sound like the case here; more like someone smugly using a technicality to queue jump.

      • NostalgicGal July 24, 2014, 10:51 pm

        I understand as I have a hairtrigger bladder these years but I’ll add to the no. I also try to go when I can find the time when out and about now, before it triggers off. (And no, I can’t tolerate meds for it). If I hit a bathroom line like that I often have to and will bail for elsewhere rather than cut that line. And have acquainted myself with (adult protection).

        • WMK July 25, 2014, 2:23 pm

          The side effects of certain overactive bladder meds are just as bad as having the condition. Ask me how I know. 😉

    • starstruck July 25, 2014, 1:20 am

      no. there is never a valid excuse for line cutting . how do you know other people in front of you don’t have similar or even worse problems? you assume your are entailed to skip in front of anyone else and thats wrong. one day you might find yourself confronted with an angry mob of women when you exit the restroom .

    • Anna Wood July 25, 2014, 1:17 pm

      I had the same bladder problem. There is medication available, note the use of the past tense. It works very well.

      • NostalgicGal July 25, 2014, 6:40 pm

        Great that it works for you. For some the side effects are much worse than the issue.

  • starstruck July 25, 2014, 1:13 am

    this is crazy! it seems every time i visit this sight i end up shaking my head at people’s audacity . why she would think holding a key would trump waiting her place in line is beyond me. i would have said something to her if she tried to cut in front of me as i was going in. like excuse me, its my turn. given my personality there probably would have been some pushing had she tried to bully her way pass me. line skipping is a huge pet peeve of mine anyway. its comes from the idea that your time is so much more valuable than the rest of us and everyone should have to wait behind you, just because your you. ridiculous!

  • just4kicks July 25, 2014, 3:10 am

    I have irritable bowel syndrome and bladder issues to boot, and yes, sometimes it is necessary for me to cut in line for a rest room. If it’s a True emergency on my part, I do try to be as polite as possible and ask the first person in line to go first. It’s embarrassing to say “I have IBS and REALLY need to go NOW, please!” But, that is less embarrassing than the alternative, which has happened to me a few times. Most folks are very understanding, but there have been a few who said “no, you can’t cut!”

  • ryo's girl July 25, 2014, 7:43 am

    I feel sorry for those with IBS and similar issues but asking only the 1st person in line if you can cut isn’t sufficient. You need to ask and receive permission from the whole line. You don’t know that someone else in line doesn’t suffer from something similar or just really need to go. And while I don’t think those with children in any way trump the line, I would hope PP’s would realize children often have smaller bladders and just don’t feel a similar level of warning time as adults. I don’t see any difference between an adult suffering from IBS (or similar) not wanting to have an accident in line than a child. They wouldn’t want to be embarassed either.

    • just4kicks July 26, 2014, 7:36 am

      That is a valid point, but I have IBS, and and when I’m in the midst of a flare up, I don’t leave the house. On those occasions when I do have an errand that can’t wait, it’s not always possible to address every person in line. I will on my way out of the rest room, thank the line of folks waiting with a cheery, “I’m so sorry I cut in line, my IBS is REALLY bad today, have a lovely day, thanks!!!!” Once, at an important baseball game my son’s were playing in, there was a line of kids from the other team who had just got off the school bus they took to the game. I was humiliated, but was in a bad way. I went to the boy in front of the only port a potty at the field and said quietly, “I have bowel issues, May I please go next? ” To his credit, he not only let me go, but held the door for me. I then tried to “hurry” while I listened to about 15 teenage boys whisper down the alley about why I cut in line. My husband later said “Oh my God! That’s humiliating!” ….not as humiliating as pooping my pants at my son’s game!

  • inNM July 25, 2014, 7:59 am

    A relevant sidebar: I notice that people do not want to talk to strangers, even to ask the most polite of questions. I’ve been in public bathrooms waiting for my companion (mother, friend, etc) and then I will notice a line has formed behind me because people assume I am waiting in line for the bathroom. A simple “Are you in line?” Would have solved the problem, and gotten them to the bathroom quicker.
    I’ve seen the same thing at lines to check into hotels, and other places without designated line guidelines. Sometimes a person is standing nearby but is not in the line because someone else in their party is dealing with the front counter. But still, instead of asking a simple question, they avoid communication.

    • NostalgicGal July 25, 2014, 6:43 pm

      I have no issue with asking “Is this the line?” or “Are you in line?” politely. I have had a few times when I was waiting for someone, and I know someone else came in, I will immediately turn around, gesture ‘go ahead’ and say “I’m not in line.” (And lately because I usually do need the big stall, I’m leaning on something and my third leg, and gesture to the one and say ‘I’m waiting for that one’ .. so others can go for the smaller ones ahead of me)

  • kjr July 25, 2014, 10:11 am

    Ugh, I hate this – I feel this is the “entitlement” syndrome. She got hold of the key, and therefor she was “entitled” to use the bathroom next, even though she knew very well other people had been waiting far longer than her.

    It reminds me of one time we went to a film festival in a very artsy town. We got a hotel and a reservation at a nice restaurant. We were going to eat right when it opened at 4:30 so we could make it to the next film – and other people had the same idea. When they opened the restaurant, they asked everyone to line up while they finished opening up. We were waiting, the line was pretty long behind us, and this woman glides by everyone and walks up to the hostess stand in front of the line. Since I was second in line, I said “excuse me, they asked us to get in line – the back of the line is that way”. I got a finger waving in my face and a very stern “WELL. WE have a RESERVATION”. I waved my finger back at her and said “well, SO DO WE”. She proceeded to yell at me at how rude I was. Luckily everyone around me was shaking their heads at her and a few even stood up for me. That always baffled me at how she acted. Not to mention she did this in front of her two kids – not a good example.

  • Yet Another Laura July 25, 2014, 11:04 am

    When I was five, my family went on frequent road trips for a family member’s athletic events. I had a blast, but I learned the following lessons:

    1. Plan ahead. Do NOT wait until the last second to tell Mommy and Daddy you have to go.

    2. Lines are for everyone. Everyone can think of an excuse to to go first and those excuses probably apply to someone waiting their turn if the line is long enough. No excuses, go to the end and wait your turn like everyone else.

    Rule #2 leads to me in my present employment thinking that if everything is a rush, nothing is and the original order stands.

  • A different Tracy July 25, 2014, 11:49 am

    As Ashley said, the way she handled it sounds like she was saying “Look! I’m doing it the right way and you’re all doing it wrong!”

    As for emergencies, don’t assume the person who hasn’t announced their own personal emergency isn’t in the middle of one. I was waiting in a long line once and a woman behind me announced a young girl was going to go to the front because she was having an emergency. I said “I’m sorry, but I’m feeling really ill and I need to go.” She gave some snarky comeback about how “WE ADULTS should be able to hold it” and I was all, really, lady? You can control diarrhea? I’m impressed. But I can’t. (Internally. I didn’t say that out loud.) And a grown woman messing her pants that way is a lot more serious, IMHO, than a grade-school-age child wetting hers. (BTW, the girl was very sweet, and when we both ended up washing our hands together she asked if I was okay.)

  • Enna July 27, 2014, 8:28 am

    I think admin is right, if someone is feeling unwell or have a condition like bladder weakness they should ask pretty please. If the coffee shop is really busy then why don’t they change their loo policy? Or take the sign down when it’s busy.

  • PatGreen July 27, 2014, 4:02 pm

    While on the subject of etiquette for bathroom lines, what do we think about people in wheelchairs?

    I’ve heard some people say that those who obviously need to use the bigger stall should be allowed to line jump as they can’t take the next one available like others can.

    I’ve heard other people argue that they need to wait like everyone else and step to the side to wait for the bigger stall if they get to the front and it’s in use.

    Would you let a person in a wheelchair or portable IV pole line jump?

    • Kendra July 28, 2014, 2:17 pm

      Yes? But I’m having a difficult time imagining why someone with an IV pole would be in my local coffee shop. 😉

      • NostalgicGal July 28, 2014, 11:19 pm

        Under treatment and let out for awhile for holiday or to be with family (think of it as a daypass) and taken back after 4-5 hours. My father had lots of heart issues and had more than a few holidays when he still had a shunt in, his ID bracelet on, and they let him come home to be with the family for a bit. A few he still had his porta-stand on wheels. Going out to a coffee shop on release like that isn’t something I’d do though or take anyone on day release to somewhere like that. …

      • PatGreen July 29, 2014, 4:07 am

        Meeting someone? Free wifi?

    • NostalgicGal July 28, 2014, 11:14 pm

      As I said elsewhere, if they need help getting around they can go first. Having wheels means you go before me, I am only in ‘needs an extra leg and sit down a lot… and grab bars are NICE when I have to go’… and I’m assuming this is for the large stall. If I’m waiting for the big stall and someone with wheels comes in, they can go ahead of me for the big stall. If it’s someone that could use a small stall, even woman with child; I’m going in my turn before her, she does not have the right to shove me aside at that point. When I get healed up; I’l be back to ‘next-anything’ with a deferment to those that need it worse if it’s the open big stall.

    • Ange July 29, 2014, 1:57 am

      I would absolutely allow that. Having a disability is hard enough in the day to day, it’s no trouble to extend that small kindness. Besides, they are who the stalls are built for after all.